Military Krav Maga given too much credit

[loki09789]

Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?

Well, join the service, actually work in/operate in a job that applies CQB types skills. PT regularly and at a high enough standard to not only pass but score in the tops/perfect on PT tests, recommendations by commanders/unit leaders, pass rank promotions/leadership training, read from the NCO/Leadership reading lists for credit, do correspondence courses, attend instructor training before you can instruct others, work 10-12 hours a day or more 6-7 days a week at times during that training and possibly as an instructor,

I should have stated 'personally possible' instead of making it sound 'impossible' to mere civilians.

I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.

 

[Jerry]

Well, join the service, actually work in/operate in a job that applies CQB types skills. PT regularly and at a high enough standard to not only pass but score in the tops/perfect on PT tests, recommendations by commanders/unit leaders,

Well. To start with, I can dream of that quite easily.

Secondy: it's an interesting assumption that I have neither been in the service nor operated in a job that requires "CQB-type skills". Not only is any of teaching martial arts "a job requiring CQB-type skills", not only have I worked as a police office, but I've also trained and trained with both millitary personnel (the school I went to was down the street from McDill AFB).

Where I would score on PT tests would depends heavily on "which service", but putting my 32-year-old, needs to work out more butt aside: I can think of some martial-artist aquaintences who did indeed join and pass PT with (comparative) ease (again, including the more demanding groups like SEALs).

pass rank promotions/leadership training, read from the NCO/Leadership reading lists for credit, do correspondence courses, attend instructor training before you can instruct others, work 10-12 hours a day or more 6-7 days a week at times during that training and possibly as an instructor

I'm an engineer. Is "correspondance courses" more difficult than an engineering degree? I'm certified as mounted police in the SE (that was about 10 hours in the morning in classes (mostly on horseback), and the parades that lasted until late (also on horseback, working as police during MardiGras). That class lasted about 10 days of that. I'm well underway to "distinguished expert" under teh NRA marskmanship program, I've had to pass job promotions tests which included leadership training (something about a stint in management).

Many points in my life, 10-hour days were normal (when I worked for a construction company, my normal day was 6-6 M-F with the occasional (common) Saturday). Heck, when I moved to Tampa, I held a M-F 7a-6p job, a Sat/Sun 7p-7a job (my manager at my first job let me come in Mondays at 11 if I worked Sat from 11a-4p, and still went to martial arts classes Tu-Th from 6:30p-10p, and Fri from 6:30-8p.

Does that qualify as "10-12 hour days"? That's about 100 hours a week between two jobs and martial arts work isn't it? Did that for about 4 months.

I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.

And I know many who are ex-millitary. Other than a minmum PT requirement, is there anything you can point to that makes CQB instructor more difficult than (say) JAG lawyer?

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but your AF, and your PT requirement is to ride a stationary bicycle for 15 minutes and not let your heart rate go above 140 (unless you are para-rescue). The only people who even get CQP in the AF are SP, Fwd combat controllers, para-rescue, and SpecOps.

 

[Isrephael]

Sorry for the confusion. I meant 6-10 hours OF evenings during a given week. That figure only really works if you are working out 4 days a week 1.5 hours each day or there abouts. Less is probably more common.

Ah, ok. That makes far more sense. Yes, I spend about 9 hours a week actually in class, then probably around 6 or so hours training on my own. I was thinking that you were some sort of training monster for a moment.

 

[loki09789]

1. Well. To start with, I can dream of that quite easily.

2. Secondy: it's an interesting assumption that I have neither been in the service nor operated in a job that requires "CQB-type skills". Not only is any of teaching martial arts "a job requiring CQB-type skills", not only have I worked as a police office, but I've also trained and trained with both millitary personnel (the school I went to was down the street from McDill AFB).

3. Where I would score on PT tests would depends heavily on "which service", but putting my 32-year-old, needs to work out more butt aside: I can think of some martial-artist aquaintences who did indeed join and pass PT with (comparative) ease (again, including the more demanding groups like SEALs).

4. I'm an engineer. Is "correspondance courses" more difficult than an engineering degree? I'm certified as mounted police in the SE (that was about 10 hours in the morning in classes (mostly on horseback), and the parades that lasted until late (also on horseback, working as police during MardiGras). That class lasted about 10 days of that. I'm well underway to "distinguished expert" under teh NRA marskmanship program, I've had to pass job promotions tests which included leadership training (something about a stint in management).

5. Many points in my life, 10-hour days were normal (when I worked for a construction company, my normal day was 6-6 M-F with the occasional (common) Saturday). Heck, when I moved to Tampa, I held a M-F 7a-6p job, a Sat/Sun 7p-7a job (my manager at my first job let me come in Mondays at 11 if I worked Sat from 11a-4p, and still went to martial arts classes Tu-Th from 6:30p-10p, and Fri from 6:30-8p.

6. Does that qualify as "10-12 hour days"? That's about 100 hours a week between two jobs and martial arts work isn't it? Did that for about 4 months.

7. And I know many who are ex-millitary. Other than a minmum PT requirement, is there anything you can point to that makes CQB instructor more difficult than (say) JAG lawyer?

8. Correct me if I'm wrong.. but your AF, and your PT requirement is to ride a stationary bicycle for 15 minutes and not let your heart rate go above 140 (unless you are para-rescue). The only people who even get CQP in the AF are SP, Fwd combat controllers, para-rescue, and SpecOps.

And what in my posts implied that I 'knew you' at all? You asked for clarification. I gave it when I editted the 'dream of' comment. I also qualified my response by saying that the 'commitment' issue is the difference between the civilian and military instructor on the average.

But let's take this point by point.

1. I editted the comment that is pointed at.

2. I never assumed that you 'didn't' only addressing the difference in training and mentallity of civilian and military trained instructors. Question though: Did you work in a Police office or are you saying that you were a police officer? And, BTW, instructing CQB is different than having a job where you apply CQB skills.

3. That is correct and if you look at the 'norm' in civilian martial arts the majority of students and instructors IMO would not be able to meet any of them.

4. Not an issue of difficulty as much as topic and time. The service correspondence courses I am referring to would be done while you are working those 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week or in the field in less than ideal academic study environments on topics such as leadership, weapon systems, tactics, communication systems, ....

5. Goodie for you, I don't see how that relates by itself. As part of the whole it demonstrates a work ethic that can translate. Great. But again, since when is this 'all about you?'

6. see above.

7. Yes, the fact that you can be given orders that take you from that instructor job to say.....Afg or Iraq where you have to operate. That is a different job than being a JAG lawyer because a JAG lawyer IS the MOS and JAG lawyers (at least based on my Bosnia experience) don't pull guard duty or any of the guardmount type jobs by nature of their job (time demands, conflict of interests/fraternization...).

8. And the Air Force is only 1/5 of the overall Armed forces. The point isn't just PT but COMMITMENT and experience. I can train now all day in firearms and H2H but as a school teacher the likelihood of direct application of those skills is far less likely than say....an 18 year old IDF soldier that use to be a Krav instructor now pulling a patrol on the streets.

 

[loki09789]

Ah, ok. That makes far more sense. Yes, I spend about 9 hours a week actually in class, then probably around 6 or so hours training on my own. I was thinking that you were some sort of training monster for a moment.

Yes, I won the lottery and have all the free time to indulge in my childhood dreams: Martial arts, writing, movieaholic and hockey (though that one came on at about 32 instead of childhood - still hooked on it though).....

 

[Jerry]

I never assumed that you 'didn't' only addressing the difference in training and mentallity of civilian and military trained instructors. Question though: Did you work in a Police office or are you saying that you were a police officer? And, BTW, instructing CQB is different than having a job where you apply CQB skills.

In telling me that I should, you assume that I did not. Are you asserting that police work (performing arrests on the street) does not entil a job in which one applies CQB skills? How does being a millitairy instructor apply CQB skills other than instructing them?

That is correct and if you look at the 'norm' in civilian martial arts the majority of students and instructors IMO would not be able to meet any of them.

So now you are qualifying down from "civilian instructors" to "norm of instructors and students". Considering the bulk of studens are children, I'd tend to agree... but I believe we were discussing martial arts *instructors*, as a comparison of civilian students to millitairy instructors seems silly.

From what do you draw your conclusions regarding the norm of civiliian instructors? About half of the people I've learned from are ex-millitary. Some were, themselves, millitary instructors before coming to the civilian world (think "systema").

Not an issue of difficulty as much as topic and time. The service correspondence courses I am referring to would be done while you are working those 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week or in the field in less than ideal academic study environments on topics such as leadership, weapon systems, tactics, communication systems, ....

And my lack of training in communications systems is as important as their lack of training in circuit paths when it comes to a martial art (such as Krav). I don't see the relevence, nor that the fact that I spend my non-martial time learning active-directory while they spend theirs learning communications systems has any signifigance.

Goodie for you, I don't see how that relates by itself. As part of the whole it demonstrates a work ethic that can translate. Great. But again, since when is this 'all about you?'

When you said:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible.

​

You then went on to describe this as one of the things that a civillian instructor would dreap possible (later ammended to "would believe possible to do themselves"). OK. I've been a civillian instructor, and I've done just that. Therefore, your assertion is established as untrue emperically.

Yes, the fact that you can be given orders that take you from that instructor job to say.....Afg or Iraq where you have to operate.

Huh? The fact that a CQB instructor can be reassigned to operations just like every other member of the millitary is relevent to the qualifiactions of the position itself?!? This claim seems rather desperate.

And the Air Force is only 1/5 of the overall Armed forces.

But it's the part you are in, and the position your experience comes from.

The Navy, until recently, didn't have any PT requirement.

I can train now all day in firearms and H2H but as a school teacher the likelihood of direct application of those skills is far less likely than say....an 18 year old IDF soldier that use to be a Krav instructor now pulling a patrol on the streets.

But we are not talking about the students, we are talking about the instructors. The CQB instructor is far less likely to need to use the skill than his student. More to the point, your assertion, and the one I contest is:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream [personally possible]
​

Let's make it easy. Let's grab a specific civillian instructor. How about Vladimir Vaseliev, head of Systema in North-America and former instructor in the Russian Millitairy?

 

[loki09789]

In telling me that I should, you assume that I did not. Are you asserting that police work (performing arrests on the street) does not entil a job in which one applies CQB skills? How does being a millitairy instructor apply CQB skills other than instructing them?


So now you are qualifying down from "civilian instructors" to "norm of instructors and students". Considering the bulk of studens are children, I'd tend to agree... but I believe we were discussing martial arts *instructors*, as a comparison of civilian students to millitairy instructors seems silly.

From what do you draw your conclusions regarding the norm of civiliian instructors? About half of the people I've learned from are ex-millitary. Some were, themselves, millitary instructors before coming to the civilian world (think "systema").

And my lack of training in communications systems is as important as their lack of training in circuit paths when it comes to a martial art (such as Krav). I don't see the relevence, nor that the fact that I spend my non-martial time learning active-directory while they spend theirs learning communications systems has any signifigance.

When you said:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible.



​

You then went on to describe this as one of the things that a civillian instructor would dreap possible (later ammended to "would believe possible to do themselves"). OK. I've been a civillian instructor, and I've done just that. Therefore, your assertion is established as untrue emperically.


Huh? The fact that a CQB instructor can be reassigned to operations just like every other member of the millitary is relevent to the qualifiactions of the position itself?!? This claim seems rather desperate.

But it's the part you are in, and the position your experience comes from.

The Navy, until recently, didn't have any PT requirement.

But we are not talking about the students, we are talking about the instructors. The CQB instructor is far less likely to need to use the skill than his student. More to the point, your assertion, and the one I contest is:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream [personally possible]


​

Let's make it easy. Let's grab a specific civillian instructor. How about Vladimir Vaseliev, head of Systema in North-America and former instructor in the Russian Millitairy?

Wow, you really have something to prove don't you? I clarified the comment to better explain my meaning, you are still dwelling on my earlier statement....

Let me simplifiy things on a conceptual level instead of picking a named instructor so that you can further split hairs, assume insults OR promote someone that you think I am undermining with my comments.

Miltary instructors are MEMBERS of the military, therefore they can get orders that say "YOUR GOING TO AFG or IRAQ" where they will be applying those skills that they were previously instructing to others. This differs from a civilian instructor because you won't be getting a letter in the mail telling a civilian instructor, regardless of system or age or connections would be getting a 'secret mission' letter of any kind.

But, if the point is to 'prove me wrong' or to 'win' this discussion...okay. YOu win. I'm wrong. You're right.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

 

[loki09789]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

Appreciate the attempt to keep things on the up and up.

No worries, I am finished with this discussion if this is how it is going to be.

 

[loki09789]

Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?

Okay, I'm done after this one: The above post is what I was responding to when I wrote the list of 'to dos'

So, I was focusing on the 'a person have to do' portion of the comment. That in no way automatically or logically links to me 'assuming' that anyone individual (Jerry or anyone else) has not or doesn't currently do any or all of the list I posted. Note also that I did edit the comment for clarity when I wrote:

I should have stated 'personally possible' instead of making it sound 'impossible' to mere civilians.

I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.

after the list of things 'to do.'

Let's face it; there are many people who decide not to join the military for a wide variety of reasons/personal perceptions. I left at the point where I knew that I wanted to focus on family and my teaching career. So, I no longer had the desire element listed above. I don't think there is any insult in anything I said.

THere. Now I am really done.

 

[MJS]

In an attempt to get the thread back on track, maybe we could have 2 questions answered.

1- What is the difference in KM material taught to someone in the military and a civilian?

2- What are the qualifications of someone to teach CQB in the Military in Isreal? After all we are not talking about the US Military, as there may be some differences.

Mike

 

[Loki]

In an attempt to get the thread back on track, maybe we could have 2 questions answered.

1- What is the difference in KM material taught to someone in the military and a civilian?

2- What are the qualifications of someone to teach CQB in the Military in Isreal? After all we are not talking about the US Military, as there may be some differences.

Mike

Thank you, Mike. That was sorely needed.

1- Civilian KM teaches what one might consider a combination of Muay Thai and Boxing, basically no-rule stand-up fighting. Kicks to the groin, biting, hair pulling, spitting, pinching... everything goes. It also teaches self-defense techniques such as releases from chokes, bear hugs, knife defenses, stick defenses, gun threat neutralizations, wrist-locks, arm-bars and so on. Since the civilian system has more time on it's hands than the military system (no 10th grader is going on a commando operation in the forseeable future), it's a lot more through, meaning you have TIME to learn all these different techniques.
The military system, on the other hand, has to prepare you for duty. So you'd be taught a basic stance, punching and simple kicks, one or two knife defenses, using your rifle as a cold weapon, possibly a gun situation and lots of aggressive training. This would be tought to a very elite unit, on par with, say, Delta Force. Infantry and other units of similar qualification usually learn no more than use of their rifle as a cold weapon, maybe a few more techniques.

As far as throughness goes, civilian KM is a lot more professional. I agree with those who say that since military life is combattive by definition, soldiers make better fighters. However, unless you're one of those forementioned elite units, that doesn't really apply. And an aggressive, strong, well-trained civilian practitioner could probably equal if not surpass a soldier.

2- To qualify to teach CQB in the IDF, you need to be 18, a qualified PT instructor, a qualified KM instructor and physically fit. The better you are past these basic requirements, the more elite a unit you might find yourself instructing. A friend of mine is a KM instructor at the IDF's Wingate base, where the most elite units are trained. Not a very aggressive person, no martial arts background, and though I hold women in the utmost respect and have seen women make very impressive achievements in martial arts, I've yet to see a 19 year old girl such as I've described instructing the Navy SEALS.

Someone brought up a military instructor being possibly reassigned to other operations. KM instructors are qualified as what is known as "02 Infantryman" the second lowest form of combat training. Just for comparison, infantry are qualified "07 Infantryman", paratroopers (marine equivalent) "09 Infantryman" and the Shayetet, one of Israel's two most elite units, "013" Infantryman". KM instructors aren't going anywhere.

~ Loki

 

[MJS]

You're welcome, and Thank You, for providing more insight! :asian:

I've done a little bit of training in KM, and after doing some research, had an idea that there was some differences, but its always best to hear from someone who is more active in it, as I've just really scratched the surface.

If you don't mind me asking, where and who do you do your KM training with?

Thanks again,

Mike

 

[Loki]

If you don't mind me asking, where and who do you do your KM training with?

I train in Israel under a student of Haim Zut's, Krav Maga 10th dan, and occasionally under Haim himself.

~ Loki

 

[MJS]

I train in Israel under a student of Haim Zut's, Krav Maga 10th dan, and occasionally under Haim himself.

~ Loki

Cool!! Its always a big plus to be training with the top people!! :ultracool

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Comprehensive areticle on Krav history here...

http://www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-krav-maga-not-alone.htm

 

[BoxANT]

Let's make it easy. Let's grab a specific civillian instructor. How about Vladimir Vaseliev, head of Systema in North-America and former instructor in the Russian Millitairy?

just to clarify, VV was *in* the Russian Military. Not just a civi training military.

 

[KyleShort]

Hmmm...I also train with a military Krava Maga instructor (though we don't train KM, he just happens to be)...in any case, what he describes is very similar to what Loki describes as KM training for elite military units...a lot of aggresiveness (he calls it *madness*) training and some basic techniques.

The thing is, I would personally rather train in this military fashion than in most US KM schools. Why? Because as the saying goes, fear not the man that knows 10,000 techniques, but rather fear the man that has practiced one technique 10,000 times. Also, heavy emphasis on *madness* training helps to put the dog in the fight, and that is a very good thing IMO.

Adding volumes of set techniques does not make it a better art. Also, some of the added techniques that I have seen in KM schools in my area are questionable. I have seen a number of head level kicks, but at least in my military KM instructor friend's experience, they only train low line kicks. Also, I can't help but question any pure, basic fighting art that adds a boat load of new techniques and colored belt and dan rankings.

But alass, my position goes well beyond KM. I hate belt ranking and I prefer a small number of basic techniques practiced thousands of times during *madness* training...no matter what the art. To each his own.

 

[Loki]

Hmmm...I also train with a military Krava Maga instructor (though we don't train KM, he just happens to be)...in any case, what he describes is very similar to what Loki describes as KM training for elite military units...a lot of aggresiveness (he calls it *madness*) training and some basic techniques.

The thing is, I would personally rather train in this military fashion than in most US KM schools. Why? Because as the saying goes, fear not the man that knows 10,000 techniques, but rather fear the man that has practiced one technique 10,000 times. Also, heavy emphasis on *madness* training helps to put the dog in the fight, and that is a very good thing IMO.

Adding volumes of set techniques does not make it a better art. Also, some of the added techniques that I have seen in KM schools in my area are questionable. I have seen a number of head level kicks, but at least in my military KM instructor friend's experience, they only train low line kicks. Also, I can't help but question any pure, basic fighting art that adds a boat load of new techniques and colored belt and dan rankings.

But alass, my position goes well beyond KM. I hate belt ranking and I prefer a small number of basic techniques practiced thousands of times during *madness* training...no matter what the art. To each his own.

Interesting idea.
Can you list some *madness* drills?

~ Loki

 

[An Eternal Student]

I'd say one of the best ways to emphasize the difference between military and civilian training is this:

Who would you least like to fight?
A. A civilian who's been studying martial arts for three years.
B. An Israeli solider who's been in the army three years and seen combat.

The level of conflict a soldier would have to deal with is alot nastier and intense than what a civilian would.