Kosutemi Seieikan - Kata, Competition and Technique

[OnlyAnEgg]

I welcome any comparisons.

Fukyugata Ich

• Attention
• Bow
• Look Left
• Turn 90 Left, Left Low Block
• Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
• Turn 180 Right, Right Low Block
• Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
• Turn Left, Left Low Block
• Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
• Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
• Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
• Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
• Step Forward Right, Right High Block
• Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
• Step Forward Left, Left High Block
• Turn 45 Left, Right Reverse Punch, Cha!
• Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
• Step Forward Left, Right Reverse Punch
• Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
• Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
• Step Forward Right, Right High Punch
• Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
• Step Forward Left, Left High Punch
• Return to start with Left
• Bow
• Attention

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Fukyugata Ni

• Attention
• Bow
• Step Out with Right Foot, Pivoting Left On Left Foot Into A Left High Block
• Step Forward Right, Right Punch
• Sweep Right Arm Into Left Low Block, Stepping Back with Right Foot Into Horse Stance
• Looking To Right, Step Out With Left Foot, Right High Block
• Sweep Left Arm Into Right Low Block, Stepping Back with Left Foot Into Horse Stance
• Step Forward With Left Foot, Left Chest Block
• Step Forward With Right Foot, Right Chest Block
• Left Front Snap Kick
• Left Elbow Strike
• Left Low Block
• Right Punch, Cha!
• Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Right Knife Hand Block
• Step Forward Left, Left Chest Block
• Right Front Snap Kick
• Right Elbow Strike
• Right Low Block
• Left Punch
• Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Left Knife Hand Block
• Bring Right Foot Up To Left Foot
• Reach Forward, Right Wrist Over Left, Grab And Pull Back To Left, Stepping Back With Left Foot
• Right Backfist
• Double Punch, Right Fist Low
• Bring Left Foot Up To Right Foot
• Reach Forward, Left Wrist Over Right, Grab And Pull Back To Right, Stepping Back With Right Foot
• Left Backfist
• Double Punch, Left Fist Low
• Return To Attention
• Bow
• Attention

On these two descriptions, please pardon my abject lack of Japanese terminology.

 

[Navarre]

I can't think of any comparisons because these are the same first two katas I know! lol

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

lol

I suppose I meant between Seieikan and other Okinawan styles.

Brain's a little laggy today. Sorry.

 

[The Kai]

They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different. Are they tradtional or modified?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different. Are they tradtional or modified?

They're modified, I believe. I'm struck by the feeling that Seieikan is an Americanization of earlier Shotokan/Okinawan forms. It's been difficult to get enough time to speak with Sensei on these more in-depth topics.

 

[Navarre]

Seiei Kan is definitely Americanized and has borrowed from Shotokan and Okinawa. If you go to larger tournaments and watch students from other systems, you will see katas that are virtually identical to the Seiei Kan katas.

I'm not offended by that because Mr. Madden's credentials are completely legitimate, as is the system. All these systems have to come from somewhere.

 

[Kosokun]

Egg, The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni. Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata". Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu, and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata". Rob

 

[Navarre]

Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?

These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well. After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.

I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an "open" system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Egg, The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni. Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata". Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu, and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata". Rob

As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?

 

[Kosokun]

As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?

No, it's not. Funakoshi's Ten no kata is a two person pre-arranged kumite drill. Utilizing Sensei Google, I find: 4. Ten-no Kata (basic application) These basic exercises teach you how to apply the technique in relation to a partner. The partner executes an agreed attack to which you exercise a specific defence and counter. The skill developed is to learn to follow the trajectory of the partners attack and to apply a defensive technique in time and to gain maximum efficiency from it and to understand what counter technique will work. Skills like how to move in a fast, yet physically relaxed manner; how to punch, kick or deflect attacks -all of these are covered in a systematic manner. (From: http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/clubs/oxford/training.asp) Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju. Rob

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Domo

 

[Kosokun]

Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?

Oh my. Mr. Nagamine's book, "The essence of Okinawan Karate do" . Mr. Nagamine says he created Fyukyukata ichi and that Miyagi created Fyukyukata ni. My bo instr. was a rokudan in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. He taught me fyukyukata ichi and ni. My karate instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi Ha and we did Ten no kata and Chi no kata. My wife did Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi. Didn't take a lot of horsepower to compare the various kata and reach the conclusion that fyukyukata 1 = Ten no kata. Fyukyukata 2 = chi no kata = gekisai dai ichi.

These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well. After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.

I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an "open" system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.

Nothing wrong in my book with Mr. Madden taking a kata or katas from other systems and incorporating them into his syllabus. Rob

 

[Navarre]

Ouch, Rob. Your explanation gave me a migraine. lol Thanks for clarifying though. I didn't doubt the legitimacy of your information but, as it is more than I previously knew, I was curious as to the source.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking any element that works and using in one's system. I suppose some purists may disagree however.

I was once considering joining a local kung fu school. I was told that I could not attend because I had studied a previous system and held a black belt. They said their sifu's techniques were copyrighted and confidential to their system.

Apparently he finally mastered jumping over clouds or teleportation or something. Can't say I understood how any technique could be so incredibly innovative that no one had figured it out in the 2000 years before this guy. ... I never bothered with them after that.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Indeed, thank you for the clarification. It is immensely helpful to me that you included the texts this information is from. I could take the time to scour the shelves, pouring over every karate text I can find in order to better understand may art; but, honestly, such pointers save an enormous amount of time.

Again, Thank you.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju. Rob

This site is a treasure trove. I feel a little guilty viewing the video because I wonder if I should learn the kata ONLY from class. Nonetheless, thank you for this.

 

[Navarre]

That is a great site for sure. Thanks!

Hey, Egg, on a different thread I mentioned a move that I didn't understand at first. You can see it on the Pinan Sandan video at 17 seconds into the clip. Looking at it now it looks rather obvious but when I was a green belt I just scratched my head and followed directions.

I wouldn't worry about viewing the katas either. I doubt you're going to use this as your primary learning source. Also, although the first 2 Ko Sutemi katas are identical as I learned them, there is more and more deviation in the upper katas.

This may be only a product of my own training, far removed as we were from direct contact with Mr. Madden back in those days. However, it is indeed a different system so they may have been changed up bit.

Perhaps yet another offense to kata purists, I don't know, especially considering the katas history. Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.

Still a great site though. Thanks, Kosokun.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.

I don't expect this or any other art is going to remain unchanged for that length of time. If things do not grow, they falter and fade.

On another point, Sensei Phillips does not require us to join the AKJU in order to train with him. That's an option I plan to take on beginning in January. We have an AKJU tourney coming up in Dec, as well, which I plan to attend. This has been a thin week for training. Birthdays and church band and kid's activities. I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.

 

[Navarre]

I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.

Regardless of rank or experience, working out alone is never as beneficial as dojo training. It's certainly never as interesting. But you'll be back on the floor in no time.

I agree with you that anyone who believes an art will remain truly unchanged over centuries is fooling themselves. Although the advent of video and other recordable media makes the situation much better, there is inevitably going to be some variance in translation between people over the course of time.

I would certainly prefer to work on the exact kata created centuries before. However, it is more important to me that the intention, perspective, and integrity of the techniques therein is what's preserved.

It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?

I haven't had the opportunity to view all the kata; but, without a doubt; at least, within the first three kata a steady head heighth is emphasized. Danny has us attempt to maintain a level head while practicing basic kata. He teaches (at my level) that head, shoulder and arm movement are a dead giveaway to your opponent and should, therefore, be minimized or eliminated.

Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty. We have done Pinan Shodan once in class. The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.