Koryo problems

[Kacey]

Wade I do know where they go but it seems these judges do not. Why are the judges not held to the same high standerds anymore This is the real question.

It's not limited to KKW competition, either. The same concerns - physical demonstration over technical correctness - come up in ITF competitions as well. It's one thing if on year the judges are focusing on stances, while the next they are focusing on power, and so on - but when patterns are done incorrectly and are winning, that's a problem.

Sure, it's fun to watch someone side kick straight up - but what's the purpose? If it's a little kid, then sure, there might be a target there (e.g. the underside of an adult's chin) - but otherwise, what's the point? This demonstrates, I think, another facet of why so many people outside of TKD think that TKD is pretty, but not practical - because they see such things occurring in competition, and if that's what the winners are doing, then it must be right. How would observers know any differently, unless they attend a class? And if they form that opinion watching competition, why attend a class at all?

 

[wade]

Terry, you have been to USAT poomsae competition and yes, I agree, you do know where the kicks go, as do I. I get caught with the same problem as you do. Do it right and lose or do it flashy and win. All IR's are qualified in either sparring, forms or hamadang. Apples, oranges and pears. They are not supposed to judge in areas they are not qualified nor certified in, but! have you ever, and I mean ever, seen an IR that does not think he/she is God's gift to TKD and by gosh they will judge where ever they by God want to? If they won't police themselves, and they won't, how can we, as players and coaches make them? There is no accountability at that level. Until there is we will continue to see flash win of correct technique every time. Uh, except in international competition where it really counts. Then the US tends to get it's collective poomsae butt handed to them on a paper plate. CRAP!

 

[terryl965]

Terry, you have been to USAT poomsae competition and yes, I agree, you do know where the kicks go, as do I. I get caught with the same problem as you do. Do it right and lose or do it flashy and win. All IR's are qualified in either sparring, forms or hamadang. Apples, oranges and pears. They are not supposed to judge in areas they are not qualified nor certified in, but! have you ever, and I mean ever, seen an IR that does not think he/she is God's gift to TKD and by gosh they will judge where ever they by God want to? If they won't police themselves, and they won't, how can we, as players and coaches make them? There is no accountability at that level. Until there is we will continue to see flash win of correct technique every time. Uh, except in international competition where it really counts. Then the US tends to get it's collective poomsae butt handed to them on a paper plate. CRAP!

Wade you are so true and I applaud the post. If I had answers to the problem I would voice them but in this day and age we are a tiny spec in the world of a IR. Thats for the reinsurance of the lack of quality in IR's.

 

[mango.man]

Hopefully nobody minds if I post this which was recently posted on High Octane, as I believe it is relevant to this conversation.

http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0

Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals
« on: Today at 01:57:56pm » I have a few students who are going to compete in the poomsae qualifiers. Anasazi recommended that I write to SBN Vicki Serbin who just returned from an IR update course. I am posting what she sent to me (I don't think she'll mind).

1. Kicks are preferably to the face. No deduction if it is to the solar plexus.
2. Range of motion bigger than demonstrated on the last set of WTF DVD (2005) but less than the recent kukkiwon ones.
3. More emphasis on lyricism - flow and ebb.
4. emphasis on correct number of dojaks per poom -e.g. in pal jang, in the back, there are 5 dojaks in one poom (front snap kick, return in place and another front snap kick, outside inside block and double punch)

Pyonwon, at the stomping part, it is an outside inside block and a back fist to the piltrum, not 2 outside inside and the stomping foot needs to be brought up to the knee etc.

 

[cflick]

One way to remedy this guessing game at local tournaments, is to attend the Black Belt/Referee meeting before the competition begins. Ask the tournament director, or Referee Coordinator, what the policy of that tournament will be on accurate Poomsae targets (specify Koryo if you wish). This will let you know how to coach your athletes for that day, and will bring the subject up for all the judges to hear, and hopefully be consistent throughout all of the rings.

This was what I was going to say.
Find out the "way" the tournament will be judging and make the adjustments accordingly.
Just as long as your students know that the kick is supposed to be to the solar plexus and continues preforming it this way while training.

This sort of thing happened at the last tournament I was at. The technique was supposed to be a mountain block in sitting stance.
And he had revamped it so it was more of a lunge(or extremely long front stance) with a right single mountain block an a low block.
It looked cool and so he won...!

As a side note: I'm training under GM K.Y. Chai.

 

[terryl965]

The problem is the tournament director says one thing and the Official do another. mango.man you beat me to it. I see what they are saying but will these Official actually do.

 

[Last Fearner]

Hopefully nobody minds if I post this which was recently posted on High Octane, as I believe it is relevant to this conversation.

Mango Man, thanks for posting this. Speaking for myself, I always appreciate hearing what the latest changes of opinions, attitudes, and judging standards are. I do intend to get back into referee certification with the USAT someday soon (I'm going to judge at Master Shinn's tournament in Lansing, MI, on March 15, btw).

I do want to comment on some of things you quoted SBN Vicki Serbin as saying.

1. Kicks are preferably to the face. No deduction if it is to the solar plexus.

If this is the official word from the WTF rules these days, I think it is a sad thing, and a mistake to make this change. While the preferring of higher kicks with no deductions for lower kicks does not punish those who kick to the solar plexus, in my opinion, this will eventually result in the very same problem that standardized, mid-section targets was intended to prevent. Those who are capable of kicking to the face will do so, audiences will like it, and judges will invariable award a half a point or more to the higher kicker. Right back to where we started!

4. emphasis on correct number of dojaks per poom -e.g. in pal jang, in the back, there are 5 dojaks in one poom (front snap kick, return in place and another front snap kick, outside inside block and double punch)

Forgive my ignorance on this one, but what is a "dojak" in Taekwondo. I am quite familiar with Taekwondo terminology, and referee terms, but this one escapes me.

Pyonwon, at the stomping part, it is an outside inside block and a back fist to the piltrum, not 2 outside inside

Is your SBN referring to Pyongwon, and are these movements number 9 & 10, and 19 & 20? Well now, if this is an "official" change, then I would be surprised. I have never heard anyone construe these techniques in Pyongwon as "two inward blocks" but I have also never heard of the first one being a block either. The strike should be to the jaw. The original description of these techniques, after the stomp and in Juchum Seogi (horse stance) are as follows: "#9) (yell) Oreun Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward) 10) Oen Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward)" (From the book: World Taekwondo Federation Taekwondo Poomse, 1975)

I looked at the Kukkiwon website for poomsae (the first time I have done this), and I noticed a few errors in Pyongwon, but I also noticed some changes. They have shortened Pyongwon's form count from the original 25 to 21 movements. They did this by combining these two back-fist strikes in one count (#9 & 10 are now #9 only, and #19 & 20 are now #17). The other two moves that are missing is the former #14 & 24 (drawing the hands back to the hip in the crane stance just before the side kick). In any event, both of these hand strikes are called "deungjumeok dangkyo teokchigi" (Back-fist jaw strike) I don't know why they spelled the second word "dangkyo" - the book spells it "dan gyo" which I believe means to rupture, or dislocate the jaw (teok). There is no mention of a block here.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_12_ex1.jsp?div=04


When the Forms were first approved, there was a seminar held in Korea, and only a few books authorized to label, define, and explain the techniques in each form. As subsequent seminars were held, attending Masters were supposed to go back to their respective countries and National Governing Bodies to impart the knowledge identical to what they were shown. The books were written and intended to verify the official version, and remind the Masters of what they were to teach.

Of course, with enough high ranking Grandmasters who gained permission to write their own books, and create their own video/DVD series, many of them changed a few things here and there. Some changes were due to forgetting what they saw at the seminar (and not bothering to verify the correct way), and other changes were because of the idea that if you are high ranking enough, you have a "feel" for what works best, and can modify the poomsae if you want. The problem is that this leads us right back to the same old confusion of "which way is right, and who do we follow next?" Personally, I would like to see some restrictions so that there is only one approved book and one authorized video series from the Kukkiwon, but everyone wants their chunk of the multi-million dollar market of Taekwondo books, videos, and DVDs.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[mango.man]

Forgive my ignorance on this one, but what is a "dojak" in Taekwondo. I am quite familiar with Taekwondo terminology, and referee terms, but this one escapes me.

Is your SBN referring to Pyongwon, and are these movements number 9 & 10, and 19 & 20? Well now, if this is an "official" change, then I would be surprised. I have never heard anyone construe these techniques in Pyongwon as "two inward blocks" but I have also never heard of the first one being a block either. The strike should be to the jaw. The original description of these techniques, after the stomp and in Juchum Seogi (horse stance) are as follows: "#9) (yell) Oreun Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward) 10) Oen Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward)" (From the book: World Taekwondo Federation Taekwondo Poomse, 1975)

CM Eisenhart

Here are the explainations for both of these as explained later in the thread on High Octane. Keep in mind that I am simply quoting another source here.

http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0

Re: Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals

« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 05:10:19pm » Sometimes it is difficult to follow the description of Poomsae meanings. To better explain Lou's point #4 from above, I thought that I might share a description that we use in our training. Lou is referring to step #19 in Taegeuk 8. Following is an explanation:
Quote
Execute a left front kick (Wen Apchagi). Immediately, follow that with a front jump kick, pushing off and kicking with the right foot (Oreun Twio Bakkuo Apchagi). Yell (Kihap) on the second kick. The left foot lands where the right foot formerly was forming a right forward stance (Oreun Apkubi). Execute a right outer forearm, inward body block (Oreun Momtong Makki) followed by rapidly by a double body punch (Momtong Dubeon Jireugi), left fist first.
Lou's point is that all of this action (poom) contains several segments.

Lou's last point is a bit more tricky. In Pyongwon, he is referring to steps #9 and #17. The technique might look like a body block (Momtong Makki) from pictures or even a video, but the description reveals that the technique is a "deungjumeok dankyo teokchigi". That means that it is actually a backfist front strike, but it also includes a movement that pulls an opponent toward you while stretching out the strike. That is why it is critical to be able to understand the technical terminology.

Thanks to Lou (and Master Serbin) for pointing out these subtilties.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:41:34pm by Anasazi2 » Report to moderator

Re: Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 05:33:47pm » Exactly! Dojak per poom is a new term for me so I made sure I was thinking in the right terms. In my classes we would refer to this as techniques per count. So the TG 8 reference is 5 techniques to one count. This keeps the rhythm of the poomsae at the correct meter. It is phrasology just like music. You can play the notes, but if yu don't have the correct tempo and phrasing the music sounds awful (like that analogy Larry).

 

[Last Fearner]

CM Eisenhart

Here are the explainations for both of these as explained later in the thread on High Octane. Keep in mind that I am simply quoting another source here.

http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0

Thanks for posting this link, mango man. Just before logging on today, I was trying to think of what term you might have been referring to with the "Dojak." I thought it sounded like Dojang (school), Dobak (uniform), Shijak (begin), and then it hit me - - "Dongjak" (movement). We often use the term "Gibon Dongjak" for basic movements. So I read the posts in your highoctane link and saw that someone there had figured out the mistake too!

It appears that there are some knowledgeable instructors on that site, so there is not much more for me to add. Although, some are confused about those two hand techniques in Pyongwon, they are both chigi (strikes) and neither is a makgi (block). Also, there is no backward strike or block as part of the set up for the first front back-fist, as some had suggested. Although these kinds of alternative applications are often discussed by instructors, they are not part of the official performance of the form if it is not stated as such in the text. Variations of applications are understood by properly trained Master Instructors, and are shared with the student when the time is right, but these concepts are not printed in the books. This preserves the value of having a personal student/instructor relationship with a qualified teacher, but often produces pseudo-instructors who learn from books.

As for the topic of poom count and number of Dongjak with each poom, this is a concept that most veteran instructors are quite familiar with, but it is worth mentioning. The Taegeuk poomsae, for instance, each contains a number of "movements" or individual techniques, but several sets of techniques are often linked together in one "poom" count. A poom count might contain only one technique, such as a single block, or punch, or it might have two or more techniques. Kicks are often linked to the following hand techniques in a set for that section of the form.

We note that updated books from the kukkiwon and WTF, as well as the Kukkiwon website, show a change in poom count for many of the forms as discussed in the link you provided. This is apparently due to the linking of certain techniques to a poom where they had previously been counted individually (IE: the two roundhouse kicks in yuk jang are now linked to the subsequent hand techniques, and the last four techniques that were counted separately, are now counted as two poom sets - thus yuk jang now has a 19 poom count instead of the former 23.

Personally, it does not really matter to me, but what I think happened is that after these forms were officially introduced and published in official textbooks, many high ranking Grandmasters, and Masters with second-hand information, counted the number of techniques according to their own personal preference, instead of checking with the textbook. I've seen many Instructors (Korean and American) who count forms for their students by just saying "Hana, Dul - Hana, Dul - Hana, Dul, Set, Net." They never follow all the way through to be sure they know what the full form count is. Since so many had different opinions as to what it should be, apparently they decided to revise the "official count." I like to be able to tell my students to go to number 10 of this form, or number 14 of that form, and know that they will all be on the same part of the form as each other.

Oh well!

This is the all the same kind of flip-flopping around that I have seen in Taekwondo forms for thirty-two years. It's one way, then another, then back to the first way - over, and over again. I try not to let it bother me, but just stay current (which is one reason why I think they do it is to see who is staying current), and I just try to focus on the benefit that Poomsae training provides for me as a student, and a teacher.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[ellies]

Tradition is what I know, but the XMA folk are not going for that. I have a young man who I work with that has been training for two years, already a 3rd Dan working on 4th Dan. He was demonstrating his skill of Koryo to some of the other folks, and one of the other young man watching actually said "This is what is wrong with TKD today." The first young man asked him to show him if he could do better, and was quickly humiliated. Though his kicks were flashier, the other young man had a lot of tradition and skill behind him. He actually knew the poomse, and later explained that it had taken him 7 years to achieve his 1st Dan. I found this exchange quite interesting, since it was two younger man.