Koryo problems

[mango.man]

NewGuy12,

While I can certainly appreciate your point of view, if you are in a competiton, I presume your goal is to win, isn't it? Otherwise, why compete. If you are strictly in it to do forms in front of a group of people and do them in the "correct" manner, I would suggest perhaps just going out to a street corner somewhere and doing your forms for the whole world to see. If you are doing them in a competition environment, you need to adjust and adapt and do them in a manner that will get you a win, otherwise you just blew however much money you paid to enter the competition.

 

[newGuy12]

Okay, at this point we all teeter on the point of falling into the "seething cauldron of debate". I don't wish to stir all of that up. Its just that I think that the preservation of the correct forms far exceed the competiton.

I can't speak with any knowlege about this, mind you, because it has been decades since I have been to a tournament. I'm of the camp that believes that all of this "fancying up" forms is a very bad practice, you see. Before long, you end up with just some dance like motions.

Once again, I think that things should split up --> the schools that wish to practice the oldschool TaeKwonDo will be on one side of things, and the schools who deviate from that can be on the other side of things (more or less REGARDLESS of what governing bodies say) -- and then go on.

I *still* wish to learn the application of the forms. It just does not suit me to see forms perturbed to be more flashy. That irks me to even watch it happen. Of course, at the same time, I'm not running the world. I am not some great dictator. Others will have to follow their own bliss. I will not try to force others to do as I wish them to, at least not very much, haha.

 

[terryl965]

I agree with Wade. Teach it and train it the right way and the rest of the pack will have to catch up to you when they learn they are doing it wrong. Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.

Miles

This is so true Miles Thanks

 

[Laurentkd]

I think teach it the way you want to teach it to your students, but then modify it for competition. This allows you to keep the "true" traditional aspects for everyday, but will allow your competitors to at least start on a level playing field.

I don't think this is sacrificing any of the "art". We do the same in sparring at my dojang. During class time the majority of our (adult) students wear just the basic gear and just about everything goes. This trains us more closely for real life. However, we would never go to a sparring division and start sweeping and then be mad later that we got penalized for it (even though it is not the same as real life) because we know the rules before hand and must comply. It is not sacrificing anything to adjust to the environment, because traditional taekwondo and competition taekwondo are two completely separate arenas. Maybe you can even turn it into a good lesson for your students that sometimes you have to adapt and overcome rather than going into a situation assuming that you already know what you need to do and what will be required.

I know this can be extra frustrating when WTF says a kick is supposed to be a certain
way and the tournament scores you differently. But as others have said, I don't think that situation is going to change anytime soon, so if you want to compete and do well you have to show what the judges want.

On another note, when I competed in state (AAU and USTU) and national (AAU) tournaments 10 years ago I always shot my first set of side kicks as knee and ribcage, but then I would throw the super high kick on the stepping side kicks later on. I felt this allowed me to show diversity in my kicks, as well and power and flexibility.
Although much has certainly changed in the past 10 years.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Please guys my question is not about the SD principle behind Koryo, it is about what should I do about the competition Team that has to proform this Poomsae and should I make the changes to compete or stay with what is originally tought.

Terry you know how it is supposed to be done but we both know out on the circuit the correct way is probably not flashy enough. Unfortunately in the end for your team to succeed you are going to have to go with more height on that kick.

 

[foot2face]

Please guys my question is not about the SD principle behind Koryo, it is about what should I do about the competition Team that has to proform this Poomsae and should I make the changes to compete or stay with what is originally tought.

Terry, it seems that you are stressing over something that's not really a big deal. I assume that part of the reason your school participates in from competitions is to win. If that is the case then you have to play by the rules of the game and have your students throw the kick really high but there is no reason why, while training in your school and especially during grading, that they can't throw it exactly where you want it. From reading many of your other post I get the impression that you are a very competent instructor. I'm positive that you students have the skill to raise the kick severely inches higher in order to impress the judges during competitions and at other times lower it, honoring the preferences of their master.
Now if you want to make a statement during competitions protesting unnecessary flash than more power to you. You'll have my support Sir.

Be well - F2F

 

[terryl965]

Terry, it seems that you are stressing over something that's not really a big deal. I assume that part of the reason your school participates in from competitions is to win. If that is the case then you have to play by the rules of the game and have your students throw the kick really high but there is no reason why, while training in your school and especially during grading, that they can't throw it exactly where you want it. From reading many of your other post I get the impression that you are a very competent instructor. I'm positive that you students have the skill to raise the kick severely inches higher in order to impress the judges during competitions and at other times lower it, honoring the preferences of their master.
Now if you want to make a statement during competitions protesting unnecessary flash than more power to you. You'll have my support Sir.

Be well - F2F

I;m stressing because U was told last year the changes was being made to correct the problem withen Korto. I have three 14-17 years ald student thast are probaly going to maje the Junior Team this year and I want the best for them and not me. So for that to happen I must teach something that is not correct by the KKW standerds. I guess I will do like you and other have said play the game and teach the right way. Thank you all for your insights.

 

[terryl965]

Terry you know how it is supposed to be done but we both know out on the circuit the correct way is probably not flashy enough. Unfortunately in the end for your team to succeed you are going to have to go with more height on that kick.

You know Zach loves to throw the kick toward the cielling so I guess he will know.

 

[Ninjamom]

I know that the reasons for participating in tournaments are as varied as the people who participate. For me personally, it provides an opportunity for competition, for self-appraisal, and it's probably as close as this rapidly nearing-50-yr-old-lady is going to see to grace and dance in this lifetime. For me, the primary benefit of forms competition is NOT in recording self-defense applications into muscle-memory. At my age/size/height/weight, if I'm serious about SD, I should probably get a gun.

There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms. Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them. People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too. In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.

As others have suggested, 1). Study correctly; 2).Compete to win.

 

[terryl965]

I know that the reasons for participating in tournaments are as varied as the people who participate. For me personally, it provides an opportunity for competition, for self-appraisal, and it's probably as close as this rapidly nearing-50-yr-old-lady is going to see to grace and dance in this lifetime. For me, the primary benefit of forms competition is NOT in recording self-defense applications into muscle-memory. At my age/size/height/weight, if I'm serious about SD, I should probably get a gun.

There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms. Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them. People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too. In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.

As others have suggested, 1). Study correctly; 2).Compete to win.

Thanks Ninjamom, Just for the record we win and win and win, I just do not want to send the wrong message to my student. That is all. Thanks again everybody, competition is just that competition.

 

[Kacey]

There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms. Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them. People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too. In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.

I agree. The purpose of competition is to get feedback, to compare oneself to others of similar rank, age, size, gender, etc., and to see how oneself compares. When my students compete, I want to know what they learned - winning is nice, and I am always appropriately appreciative when they do (which they do regularly, if not as regularly as Terry's students) - but the experience and the lessons are what I want my students to gain. Competition within class, or even with other nearby classes, is often limited because of the number of students, and it is too easy to fall into habits of reaction (e.g. this person always does "X" when I do "Y") and to cease to push one's boundaries - competition forces students to move outside their comfort zone, which in turn causes them to learn, grow, and improve.

That the rules in competition are often different than the rules for class or testing teaches students how to change things on the fly, how to observe what is going on the environment and adapt their technique based on those observations - and that is, in essence, a very valuable skill for self-defense and life in general.

 

[shesulsa]

ADMIN NOTE:

The posts regarding application of TKD poomsae have been moved to this thread.

Please keep the discussion on topic.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

 

[JWLuiza]

I agree. The purpose of competition is to get feedback, to compare oneself to others of similar rank, age, size, gender, etc., and to see how oneself compares. When my students compete, I want to know what they learned - winning is nice, and I am always appropriately appreciative when they do (which they do regularly, if not as regularly as Terry's students) - but the experience and the lessons are what I want my students to gain. Competition within class, or even with other nearby classes, is often limited because of the number of students, and it is too easy to fall into habits of reaction (e.g. this person always does "X" when I do "Y") and to cease to push one's boundaries - competition forces students to move outside their comfort zone, which in turn causes them to learn, grow, and improve.

That the rules in competition are often different than the rules for class or testing teaches students how to change things on the fly, how to observe what is going on the environment and adapt their technique based on those observations - and that is, in essence, a very valuable skill for self-defense and life in general.

Very good point. Also, the pressure of observation is a crucible for tempering performance during real life altercations. Cool under pressure.

 

[Kwan Jang]

My view on forms is this: the purpose of a traditional pattern is a memory device to help a practitioner learn the direction, angle of attack, and type of attack towards vital targets, especially nerve centers. This is a great study device IF you take it and apply it in your training. If you don't, then it's akin to someone using the "alphabet song" to memorize the alphabet and then stopping there, rather than as a step in learning to read and write. If you are 5-6 yrs. old and sing "x-y-z, now I know my a-b-c's, what do you think of me". the reply would probably be "good job, Bobby". If the singer is 25, the reaction may be a little different.

Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose. I kind of chuckle at the fact that most of the "traditionalists" who disdain either creative forms or XMA usually neither understand the purpose or application of their patterns and don't actually train them with any depth towards application at all. (a-b-c-d-e-f-g...).

In sport TKD competitions, it is very common to alter what would be effective in combat to make it more "viewer friendly". This is not only true of forms, but probably even more so in sparring competition. By that token, if one of my students wants to compete in olympic style or point sparring, I alter there training and mindset to prepare them for "playing the game". After the competition is over, we get back to work on their core material and "clean out" any bad habits they may have picked up. The same is true of forms.

 

[exile]

Great post, as usual, KJ.

My view on forms is this: the purpose of a traditional pattern is a memory device to help a practitioner learn the direction, angle of attack, and type of attack towards vital targets, especially nerve centers. This is a great study device IF you take it and apply it in your training. If you don't, then it's akin to someone using the "alphabet song" to memorize the alphabet and then stopping there, rather than as a step in learning to read and write. If you are 5-6 yrs. old and sing "x-y-z, now I know my a-b-c's, what do you think of me". the reply would probably be "good job, Bobby". If the singer is 25, the reaction may be a little different.

nice....

The crucial question, though, is how do the tournament organizers and the sponsoring orgs see the point of the forms competition? A lot of them will probably be happy to see the most exaggerated 'wushu'-style stuff performed—the more spectacular, the more repeat business they can count on.

Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose. I kind of chuckle at the fact that most of the "traditionalists" who disdain either creative forms or XMA usually neither understand the purpose or application of their patterns and don't actually train them with any depth towards application at all. (a-b-c-d-e-f-g...).

And often will give you major arguments if you suggest that kata/hyung practice aimed at perfecting the performance of the forms is the point of the whole exercise, rather than being a crucial step in the detailed study of the form, with an eye to seeing the realistic combat strategies and tactics implicit in its subsequences. Yes. I get the feeling that in the KMAs, or at least TKD, we're at the place where Japanese karate was in the seventies and eighties, where, I've been told, not one American dojo instructor in a hundred could, or would, tell you anything about bunkai apart from, 'well, if he throws a middle lunge punch in a deep front stance like so, you do an inside-to-outside middle block like so, and then...' Clearly, this is going to influence the overall attitude of the judging at these events. If it looks good, it'll probably get you points no matter how absurd it would be to try to use in a street confrontation...

In sport TKD competitions, it is very common to alter what would be effective in combat to make it more "viewer friendly". This is not only true of forms, but probably even more so in sparring competition. By that token, if one of my students wants to compete in olympic style or point sparring, I alter there training and mindset to prepare them for "playing the game". After the competition is over, we get back to work on their core material and "clean out" any bad habits they may have picked up. The same is true of forms.

My view on Terry's problem is that it's connected with the culture of judging. You have to ask, how many judges actually know what the description standard of the form is? I'm not sure that the judges in many of these tournaments and competitions actually get the training, or instruction, or orientation, that would enable them to turn down a flashy athletic performance in favor of a more sober, solid and technically correct execution of the hyung.

I get the sense, from what I've seen at tournaments and heard from competitors, that this sort of problem isn't going to go away soon. I have a feeling that the sponsoring orgs want the competitions to emphasize the showmanship aspect, as a way of promoting themselves. What incentive do they have to change?

 

[terryl965]

What I have personnally seen with judges is this they no nothing about true application and foot placement. They won'r kicks to the cieling and people jumping though the roof to please them. If you was a acrobatic star you would not just barely get off the floor with your routine and if you are suppose to be doing Koryo the way of the Kukkiwon then why would you throw a second sidekick to the ceiling?

 

[YoungMan]

That's not entirely true. At our organization tournament, the judges (myself included) could care less about a side kick in Koryo touching the ceiling. Kicking high simply because you can is meaningless.
What we are looking for is:
Are you doing the form the way it is intended to be done?
Are you practicing accuracy?
Are your techniques effective? If you do a technique and it looks like it would not do what it was designed for, you get marked down.
Are you quick, slow, graceful, and hard where and when you need to be?

All thiese points are more important than how high you can kick.

 

[Last Fearner]

I have always been tought with Koryo it is a sidekick to the knee and then the ribcage, but at all tournament we do we get penalized because we do not shoot the second sidekick to the cieling.

Master Stoker, if you don't mind my contribution to this discussion, I would like to share some personal insights into what you are experiencing.

First, you are correct in the proper target of the Taekwondo Poomsae, "Koryo." The double side kicks (in movements #2, and #6) are described as "Arae Yeop Chagi" and "Momtong Yeop Chagi" (Low Side Kick and Body Side Kick). The official intended targets are the knee and the solar plexus.

When I talk to official they tell me I'm wrong but the KKW say the same thing knees and rib cage.

I'd be curious as to what "official" you talked to. The KKW teaches the forms correctly for Taekwondo training, and the WTF approves these same versions for competition with guidlines for judging them. I must admit that I am out of the loop as far as USAT rules since my last seminar was a USTU in 1998, but I used to teach the seminars for the USTU in our area, and I don't see the criteria for proper Taekwondo Poomsae changing.

Just looking at the textbook again shows a different thing altogether. It shows the double knifehand block simply blocking a midsection punch (no trapping involved) then the second side kick to the throat of the opponent.
So much for clarity.

Iceman, you are right that it is often not clear. There are many interpretations that can be applied (IE: trapping), and the Knife-hand guarding block could be used against a punch, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, or even a weapon. The official form simply requires the block of a basic punch, knocking the opponent's punching hand away, then followed by two kicks, outward knife-hand strike to the neck, a punch, and an inward body block.

If trapping the opponent's punching wrist were applied, the side kick to the knee followed by the side kick to the solar plexus is still correct. Then pulling on the opponent's wrist while stepping down to strike the neck with the outward knife-hand, and letting go to execute the reverse punch is one possible application.

Do I make the changes or just keep losing with this poomsae?

Both sides of this question have been addressed here by others, and I think you have mentioned that your students usually win anyway. As others have said, you can train for two target levels, and adjust to the tournament. As I will point out later, I doubt that this one factor of a high kick is really what decides victory in most cases, although it might seem that way.

Do you train for local or national level competition? There is a difference. For local, kick high, for national follow the current WTF, not Kukkiwon, standards.

Wade is right, and this is often the truth of the matter, unfortunately, as others have pointed out that students should be adaptable to change to the circumstances (a good quality by any means). In any event, it's not like we are talking about teaching them to do incorrect or poor techniques. This is an issue of following an approved pattern, and focusing on specific targets. By the rules, the specified targets should be struck, but certainly, if a student is capable of striking higher, it's not like you are teaching them poor Taekwondo skills, but I do understand your dilemma, especially promoting good training habits for self defense.

Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.

Miles

Miles has hit the nail on the head here, and it sheds a light on what should be done by referees and judges.

Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose.

Kwan Jang made some excellent points in his post, but the above quote is of particular interest here as to why this problem has developed over the years, and one must consider what is to be the future of Taekwondo Competition, and how this might affect the public's perception, new students' expectations, and instructors' decisions to compromise quality for popularity.

If I may wax nostalgic for a moment, some of you senior Taekwondoists can probably identify with this, and the newer students might benefit from hearing about it. When I first began competing in tournaments in the mid 1970's there were not many "Taekwondo" tournaments around (not near as many as today). My friends and I used to travel to find open "Karate" tournaments, "Karate/Kung-Fu" tournaments, or "Karate/Taekwondo" tournaments run by Karate schools. We were often amused at the "weird" stances, hand strikes, and noises made by our opponents in their Okinawan Kata. We would do textbook perfect Taekwondo forms, and never win because the judges graded according to Karate criteria. Of course, the same thing often happened when they came to our tournaments.

The more Taekwondo tournaments that arose in the 80's and 90's (in the U.S.) the more variety of judging we saw. Most older Black Belts and instructors who didn't compete, judged the younger Black Belts, and many of the older judges could not do the splits or kick sky high. The audience was often impressed when a forms competitor kicked to the ceiling, and the judges were too!(and often envious). The audiences cheered, and the judges gave high scores.

The problem being that this was not true to Taekwondo's philosophy, traditional or otherwise. High kicks are a challenge, a show of flexibility, balance, and sometimes strength of the legs. It was not fair to those who were excellent practitioners of Taekwondo, who were flexible enough to kick an opponent's body or face, but could not kick 8 or 9 feet in the air, doing a standing split. It was not fair that a good Taekwondoist should lose forms competition every time, just because the other competitor could do the splits.

This is why organizations like the ATA held "closed tournaments," to control the rules and judging, and why the ITF has its own rule book on competition. It is more fair for the competitors if everyone is judged on the same criteria, by all judges, at every Taekwondo tournament. When Taekwondo made its move into the Olympic arena, this became imperative. You can't have this wide range of "opinions" about what is a good technique, or a good poomsae cause the judging to be all over the board when you are dealing with international competition and Olympic gold is on the line. It is not acceptable when one judge scores a "4," and another gives a "9."

Although I had been judging Taekwondo tournament since 1978, I took my first U.S.T.U./WTF referee seminar (level D-3 certification) in 1992 at Grandmaster Ahn's Classic Tournament in Ohio. I went through 12 levels of certification over the following six years (up to A-1). I officiated at many state and national events, was a USA coach at the U.S. Open, at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in 1995, and I was the Indian State Referee Chairman in 1996.

Many of the referee seminars that I attended were conducted by Grandmaster Kowang Woong Kim (KKW 9th Dan #12) of Kenosha, Wisconsin (http://ustkda.com/aboutus.aspx), who at that time, was the Chairman of the Referee Certification Committee for the USTU, and had written the WTF rule book (Master Stoker, and Kwan Jang here probably know who I'm talking about). A couple of other key figures I received training from were GM Hong Kong Kim (USTU Vice President, Ohio state president, and 1992 Olympic coach http://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/grandmasterkim.html ), and GM K.Y. Chai (Indiana state president) of Lafayette, Indiana, and Purdue University Taekwondo Club (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~tkwondo/instructors.htm).

These officials made it quite clear that WTF approved poomsae competition was to be judged according to accurate targets. At seminars, we reviewed all of the Taegeuk Poomsae for color belts, and Black Belt forms, and specific mention was made, repeatedly, about the punches and kicks being directed at the targets identified in the WTF Poomsae book. Koryo was specifically covered, and every judge and referee was told to knock points off for sky high kicks, and only award points for accurate targets. It is up to the organizing committee, Tournament Director, and Referee chairman to enforce these rules. Judges were told that if they score Poomsae incorrectly, they will be removed from their position at State, National, and International level competitions, but this does not always happen.

I have had this discussion with my own students many times, and here is one of the problems. As I sit and judge Black Belt Poomsae competition, I sometimes see a seasoned competitor shoot those kicks sky high, and as much as I might shake my head and think to myself, this is not correct, this person is often one of the best technicians competing that day. If this person does a nearly perfect form, and the other competitors kick right on the solar plexus, but their stance is weak, their balance is off, their eye-focus is down, and a number of other reasons, then myself and the other judges award the first place to the high kicker. We are not rewarding the high kick, but rather the fact that the rest of the form was better than anyone else's on the floor, but it has the same effect.

However, if two people do their form almost identically well, and one kicked at the solar plexus, while the other kicked at the ceiling, the lower kick would win (if the judging is done correctly according to WTF standards). As I am often the senior ranking judge in my ring, I make sure to politely remind other judges of this rule before competition starts. One way to remedy this guessing game at local tournaments, is to attend the Black Belt/Referee meeting before the competition begins. Ask the tournament director, or Referee Coordinator, what the policy of that tournament will be on accurate Poomsae targets (specify Koryo if you wish). This will let you know how to coach your athletes for that day, and will bring the subject up for all the judges to hear, and hopefully be consistent throughout all of the rings.

I hope that sharing these personal experiences which I have had over the years, helps some students to see this issue in a broader sense, but most of the advice that I have read in this thread here has been right on point already.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[wade]

Chief Master, that was nicely put and to be honest hasn't really changed. At my last test on 9 Feb in New Orleans, SGM JP Choi and SGM Hong Kong Kim were on my testing board. After going through my forms, from TG 1 up to Choengwon, one of the major sticking points was where were the target areas for the kicks for the different forms. Of course Koryo came up as I think it always does. On the floor at the US Open, for the most part the forms were being judged pretty evenly. The problem is there are probably fewer than 20 WTF certified poomsae judges in the US. At one division I watched while I was waiting to compete and I saw a young woman do a head level secondary side kick in Koryo and one of the "IR's" gave her a 9.0. To say this is still frustrating at that level is an understatement. The next day I did a poomsae seminar with one other high ranking round eye. The only ones there besides him and I were 3 young Koreans that were "told" by there masters to be there. With this kind of an attitude on the part of the players, coaches and the judges themselves, the US will remain a back water in international competition and coaches like Terry will be continually asking, where do the kicks go? Sad, isn't it.

 

[terryl965]

Chief Master, that was nicely put and to be honest hasn't really changed. At my last test on 9 Feb in New Orleans, SGM JP Choi and SGM Hong Kong Kim were on my testing board. After going through my forms, from TG 1 up to Choengwon, one of the major sticking points was where were the target areas for the kicks for the different forms. Of course Koryo came up as I think it always does. On the floor at the US Open, for the most part the forms were being judged pretty evenly. The problem is there are probably fewer than 20 WTF certified poomsae judges in the US. At one division I watched while I was waiting to compete and I saw a young woman do a head level secondary side kick in Koryo and one of the "IR's" gave her a 9.0. To say this is still frustrating at that level is an understatement. The next day I did a poomsae seminar with one other high ranking round eye. The only ones there besides him and I were 3 young Koreans that were "told" by there masters to be there. With this kind of an attitude on the part of the players, coaches and the judges themselves, the US will remain a back water in international competition and coaches like Terry will be continually asking, where do the kicks go? Sad, isn't it.

Wade I do know where they go but it seems these judges do not. Why are the judges not held to the same high standerds anymore This is the real question.