Kong Soo Do

[puunui]

[The Korea Kong Soo Do Association ]

" So that's where Korean Karate came from"
Korea Karate-do Association

I think the popularity of the term "Korean Karate" in the US came from the two best selling books of the same name, written by GM SON Duk Sung and GM CHO Sihak back in the 1960's.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate it Puunui. This gives an example of how contradictory it appears on the surface, and even on review. For example, the different conflicts that arose during that time, what appears to be different stories etc. And it is often difficult to know what is a good resource, and what isn't. You say that Dakin Burdick isn't to be believed. And I'm not doubting you, I don't know him. But the JAMA is suppose to be a 'scholarly' work that is peered reviewed, so at least on the surface it looks like a trusted source. He and Tedeschi agree on some points in regards to the term KSD.

Sigh, just when you think you've got it nailed down...

 

[puunui]

And it is often difficult to know what is a good resource, and what isn't. You say that Dakin Burdick isn't to be believed. And I'm not doubting you, I don't know him. But the JAMA is suppose to be a 'scholarly' work that is peered reviewed, so at least on the surface it looks like a trusted source. He and Tedeschi agree on some points in regards to the term KSD.

The best sources are those with first hand first person perspectives. Dakin Burdick and Mark Tedeschi agree because they use the same source or each other -- Cocoran and Farkas. A lot of people cite their work, inadvertently and/or knowingly. Just because it is in JAMA doesn't mean that everything in there is accurate.

 

[puunui]

A better name for what you are doing would be Kwon Bup, not Kong Soo Do. Kwon Bup, if you trace your lineage through Han Moo Kwan GM LEE Kyo Yun, would not be in doubt. The two individuals who used Kwon Bup for the name of their art, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM YOON Byung In, were eclectic martial artists with a varied background which includes training in Manchuria as well as Japan. You also avoid the competition focus of both Dr. YOON Kwe Byung (who is not in your lineage) and also MABUNI Kenwa Sensei. You can legitimately say that your path is in a way a continuation of what GM Yoon and GM Chun were doing in the 1940's. No one is really using that art name anymore, so there wouldn't be any conflict with anyone, unlike Kong Soo Do, which is still being used by at least one group dedicated to the idea and goal of getting Karate in the Olympics.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A better name for what you are doing would be Kwon Bup, not Kong Soo Do. Kwon Bup, if you trace your lineage through Han Moo Kwan GM LEE Kyo Yun, would not be in doubt. The two individuals who used Kwon Bup for the name of their art, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM YOON Byung In, were eclectic martial artists with a varied background which includes training in Manchuria as well as Japan. You also avoid the competition focus of both Dr. YOON Kwe Byung (who is not in your lineage) and also MABUNI Kenwa Sensei. You can legitimately say that your path is in a way a continuation of what GM Yoon and GM Chun were doing in the 1940's. No one is really using that art name anymore, so there wouldn't be any conflict with anyone, unlike Kong Soo Do, which is still being used by at least one group dedicated to the idea and goal of getting Karate in the Olympics.

Kwon Bup = Fist Law?

In regards to GM Chun Sang Sup, do you have information on his training in Manchuria and Japan?

In regards to KSD, is it not still generic enough a label even without the sporting aspect (though we do have one school in the association that separates training and attends comps). Taekwondo for example (although not as generic a term) can be used to cover both sport and SD types of schools. And musing further to toss the thoughts on the table, GM Chun Sang Sup had Japanese training as you've mentioned above. One of the things we liked about KSD is the connection with karate(do). As an eclectic martial artist, one would wonder if GM Chun Sang Sup (had he survived) would have eventually changed and used the term TKD like the other Kwans. And going further, even if he didn't use KSD (as you state and I don't dispute), he didn't initially use Kwon Bup either. Rather, he used whatever his Manchurian/Japanese training was called and then changed to Kwon Bup. Thus change seems to be one martial constant.

What I'm saying is that the use of the term KSD in no way disrespects those that came before us in the lineage. And since our training is now very different from our closest link in the lineage chain (Han Moo Kwan), it also shows respect to them by giving them the respectful identification yet not using their name directly. Either as a 'Kwan' or as an art name. Some using KSD with a sport influence shouldn't be a deal breaker as we've specified a further separation using the MSK KSD label to differentiate ourselves from other KSD schools. This way, we stay nicely generic, step on no ones toes and maintain our own distinct identity to build on.

Your assistance allows me to restructure our lineage with this corrected information, and thank you. As mentioned, any information on GM Chun Sang Sup's training would be an aid as well (and interesting). Many thanks.

 

[Makalakumu]

Kwon Bup = Fist Law?

I like it! Korean Kempo!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kwon Bup = Fist Law?

Fist method in this context.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

This isn't the first time this observation has been made, though the other times were in regards to a training DVD that I did several years ago. I would submit that it definately doesn't look like what many/most would think of TKD. For me personally, I'm more edge-of-hand, elbows and knee spikes as far as striking. My locks and throws definately have more of an Aikijujutsu flavor (since I trained in AJJ extensively). But I would submit that any/all of it could fit under the label of Kong Soo Do.

More later

I would not use the Kong Soo Do name, unless I was actually doing Kong Soo Do, and was an actual member. It has already been in use for a long, long time.

Recently while in Korea, I watched collegiate members of the "Dae Han Kong Soo Do Yun Meng" training in Seoul. The coach told me they were training for some inner collegiate friendship game coming up in Daegu. I was very impressed and thought how good some of their kicking was and how much it looked like Taekwondo. Then I watched a girl, looked to be a bantam weight, do Bassai Dai, also impressive, but different than Poomsae. They were cool and gave me a uniform patch and pin.

To see photos from the Korea Kong Soo Do Associations recent event, check out this link. You can even read the KONG SOO DO in Hangul on the banners.

http://www.mookas.com/media_view.asp?news_no=11446

 

[puunui]

I would not use the Kong Soo Do name, unless I was actually doing Kong Soo Do, and was an actual member. http://www.mookas.com/media_view.asp?news_no=11446

That's what I said. In Korea, the term Kong Soo Do is not an all encompassing generic term, but a specific term for a specific kind of art, which is focused on competition.

 

[mastercole]

That's what I said. In Korea, the term Kong Soo Do is not an all encompassing generic term, but a specific term for a specific kind of art, which is focused on competition.

They even hold membership in the Olympic Karate movement, so they are internationally recognized.

http://www.wkf.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=54

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate all of the valued input that has gone into this thread. I would like to quote GM Dunn's post on Martial Warrior to the instructors withing the IKSDA for their review;

Nigel, not to worry, your still our guy down under. Believe me, I know what your going through. It's very hard to dislodge already existing mindsets when dealing with martial arts. For KSD to make in roads, even here in the states, is a daunting prospect and we've had/are having our share of problems. Even as we speak, we are engaged in a discussion on the term/title of Kong Soo Do and we are being educated by some fairly knowledgeable folks. We have been advised that there is in fact a sanctioned Korean KSD organization, that is basically a sports orientated martial art on the same vain as TKD. This has given us pause to re-evaluate us using KSD as a heading/label for what we are attempting to accomplish, which is to offer a straight forward self defense organizational platform for those that wish to disassociate themselves from the stigma of sport and baby sitting.

So with this aspect now in place, I would like every member to give their feed back on a new proposal. We had used the offering of TaeKido in the past, but really could not find a meaningful word(s) association for it. The term TaeKido is a derivative of blending the titles of TaeKwondo and Hapkido together, thus giving us TaeKido. Now there are other venues using this title, but they are totally associated with Japanese arts backgrounds. Really don't know how they came to incorporate the term, but they are single schools located in Australia and Germany and would in no foreseeable way interchange with us, if we decided to use this name again. My/our sole intention is to not infringe historically on misusing terminology, that seems to bring out the ire in those that focus on the history aspects of the arts. We surely wish to not be labeled as folks, who don't know or understand the historical attributes associated with martial arts and our own venue within them. David has done a masterful job of researching history and offering a lineage profile, but he/we have still managed to miss important aspects that will/have negative computations if we continue to use them as they are currently offered. I/we want folks to look at us and determine that we offer sound historical relevance and a sound applicable martial arts platform, that folks can readily identify with and have no reservations about participating in.

As GM Dunn mentions, we previously used the term 'Taekido' to describe our martial offering. Taekido was simply a blending of Taekwondo and Hapkido (several of our folks have ranking in both). On the surface, Taekido sounds pretty straight-forward. The only problem we potentially saw was that 'Taekido' doesn't have any meaning translation-wise. We weren't sure if it would be appropriate??? We considered Taekido Karate as well. Something that doesn't step on anyone's toes or infringe on what they're doing, is sufficiently generic enough to use but specific enough to identify with and we can use to forward our specific SD goals.

Or should we simply go back to Taekwondo and/or Hapkido? Our lineage does go through the Han Moo Kwan, but doesn't necessarily look like HMK TKD since they now really focus on sport (for decades now). We do/have used the Mu Shin Kwan which better describes what we do as far as TKD and/or HKD.

Your helpful comments and/or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks everyone.

 

[puunui]

Or should we simply go back to Taekwondo and/or Hapkido? Our lineage does go through the Han Moo Kwan, but doesn't necessarily look like HMK TKD since they now really focus on sport (for decades now). We do/have used the Mu Shin Kwan which better describes what we do as far as TKD and/or HKD.

I think you should change the name to Kwon Bup. Kwon Bup Mu Shin Kwan. Even your form looks similar to what GM YOON Byung In taught. There is footage of GM KIM Soo practicing a two man set on the internet somewhere. Try looking at that.

 

[puunui]

In regards to GM Chun Sang Sup, do you have information on his training in Manchuria and Japan?

GM LEE Chong Woo says that GM Chun learned Shotokan Karate at Takushoku University in Japan. GM LEE Won Kuk said that GM Chun and GM Yoon would travel to Manchuria for training after WWII but before the Korean War. GM Lee said that they would frequently travel to Manchuria to train, that they were like brothers, and they were so close that it was difficult to tell which was which, because they were so similar. GM Chun might have learned Karate (Kong Soo Do) in Japan, but when he opened his school, it was under the name Kwon Bup, not Kong Soo Do, mainly I think because of GM Yoon, who taught at the Yun Moo Kwan for six months before opening his own club at the YMCA.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think you should change the name to Kwon Bup. Kwon Bup Mu Shin Kwan. Even your form looks similar to what GM YOON Byung In taught. There is footage of GM KIM Soo practicing a two man set on the internet somewhere. Try looking at that.

That's a good suggestion, and thanks to you it would be historically correct. But my concern is that Kwon Bup isn't as well know outside of Korea as perhaps other labels. Whereas something like 'Korean Karate' doesn't need much explanation (from a name recognitions stand point), Kwon Bup might leave a lot of people scratching their heads.

 

[puunui]

That's a good suggestion, and thanks to you it would be historically correct. But my concern is that Kwon Bup isn't as well know outside of Korea as perhaps other labels. Whereas something like 'Korean Karate' doesn't need much explanation (from a name recognitions stand point), Kwon Bup might leave a lot of people scratching their heads.

I don't think many people understand what Kong Soo Do is either, and I would think that would leave a lot of people scratching their heads as well. I think any name you choose will have people scratching their heads. they might understand what "kenpo" is, and I guess you could say that Kwon Bup is the Korean pronunciation for Kenpo, which is true.

Another suggestion would be Hoshinsul, which roughly translates to self defense. That might be an appropriate name for what you are doing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think many people understand what Kong Soo Do is either, and I would think that would leave a lot of people scratching their heads as well. I think any name you choose will have people scratching their heads. they might understand what "kenpo" is, and I guess you could say that Kwon Bup is the Korean pronunciation for Kenpo, which is true.

Another suggestion would be Hoshinsul, which roughly translates to self defense. That might be an appropriate name for what you are doing.

We had considered Hoshinsul at one time. The concern was using it as the actual name for the art.

We could always return to TKD and/or HKD. Hapkido is fairly well thought of as SD (there are exceptions of course, but by and large it is considered to be an effective for of personal protection). As far as TKD...well, there is always something like 'old school' TKD or something to sort of give the person some indication that it isn't centered around competitions.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Post deleted: Got the answer on a different board

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Our school owners discussed it via phone and/or on the net. The concensus was that we're already established (or are becoming established) in our respective areas. Some more than others of course. We've been with this label for too long now to change it out. Although the Yon Mu Kwan probably didn't use the term, and although there exists a KSD organization within Korean, everyone still feels it is a generic enough niche. We have on the website already what our focus is so that those searching can readily know our goals. That will ensure we aren't confused with the sport-centered Korean group using the label. It will also serve to separate us from any other group using the label.

Looking back at all the pages of this thread I've seen several people supportive and understanding of what we've done and what our goals are.

I'd like to thank Puunui and Master Cole for their valued input. It was very seriously considered. As Puunui once mentioned, we're into the pot so-to-speak i.e. commited to the name. Besides, it's just not possible to change my screen name on Martial Warrior (just kidding)

Thank you for your input.

 

[mastercole]

Our lineage does go through the Han Moo Kwan, but doesn't necessarily look like HMK TKD since they now really focus on sport (for decades now). We do/have used the Mu Shin Kwan which better describes what we do as far as TKD and/or HKD.

Han Moo Kwan is a fraternal order, actually it is so small now that they do not have an annual gathering anymore. So when we speak about Han Moo Kwan these days, we are really talking about GM Lee.

Several times I have been to what could be considered the main Han Moo Kwan dojang in Seoul, the Dongdaemoon Dojang, and they are not focused on tournaments. What I did see there was Poomsae and Mommakki (Hoshinsul).

Grandmaster Lee's focus is not on tournaments either. He writes very little about competitions. As a man in his 80's, he is very old school. I asked him personally about many things like Kwan's, competition, old and modern Poomsae, Kukkiwon, WTF, etc.

GM Lee believes that the current Taegeuk Poomsae and Dan Poomsae created by the KTA Poomsae Committee, of which he was a member, are the most comprehensive forms ever created for any martial art. He said never in the history of martial arts had such a project taken place and the men on this team were the best and brightest martial artist of their time, well versed in Okinawan, Japanese, Chinese and Korean versions of martial arts. He said the knowledge brought together by this group was unparalleled in the history of marital arts.

No one was thinking of tournaments when they created the Taegeuk and Dan Poomsae, they were thinking of the scope of history and the sequence of development over time and nations to create a truly valuable set of forms. Sure Poomsae recently now has a WTF World Poomsae Championships, which is excellent as this sporting event is a show case for Taekwondo's martial art element of Poomsae.

Just like breaking. It has been around before tournaments, but, it appears in events today, like the Hanmadang. Let me tell you, I was pretty good at breaking at one time, but when I went to the Hanmadang in Dangjin, I was intimidated. This was serious, psycho breaking stuff, no tricks, the Kukkiwon chose the materials, granite, oak and hardened tiles. A number of guys failed on their breaks and I could see for some it was physically, devastatingly painful. I am almost never impressed by breaking, but I left the Hanmadang with a whole new view of that part of Taekwondo.

I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

Here was their thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

- bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

- full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

- limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

- allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Here was their thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's


- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

Very good philosophy to train by!