knowingly training at mcdojo

[WaterGal]

Dropbear is correct in saying that there was a super-quick Krav instructorship handed out. There is a really large gap between quality Krav instructors and people who just want to advertise Krav at their dojos. It reminds me of when the Gracies became popular in the 90s. Soon after the UFC tons of dojos began advertising Jiu Jitsu. A TKD place across the street began teaching bjj a couple months after the instructor began training himself. His reason was that he would always be a few weeks ahead of the students. Krav, by nature, should be easy to master but unfortunately it can also create bad Krav. It kind of makes me think of when the term "kickboxing" meant actually something. Nowadays when someone says that they take kickboxing, it could be cardio karate or they train with a guy at a gym that has been kickboxing for only a year...or maybe never actually kickboxed but "hits the bag a lot." Krav Maga is starting to become a generic term, just like Karate. KMWW and IKMA have been speaking out about that for years. If someone gets certified from the big four (IKMA, KMWW, IKMF, KMG...Sorry if I'm leaving one out) it should be good Krav.

Yeah, for a while we'd get e-mails semi-regularly advertising different Krav instructor training programs. Some of them, you didn't even need to have ever taken Krav. Anybody with some number of years of experience in any martial art could go take their $1,000 weekend training camp and come out a certified Krav instructor in their association.

 

[drop bear]

I'm sorry buddy, but Krav is more technical than conceptual. I understand what you are saying in regards to their aggressiveness (attack, attack, attack) but Krav is a very technical system of self defense. You can't have an aggressive TKD practitioner and call him a kravist. Krav has a very specific signature, as does Aikido, Kenpo, BJJ, etc. Meaning, when you see it you can identify it. An example of this is RCAT (Redirect, Control, Attack, Takeaway.) Sometimes Krav gets a reputation of just being "crazy people running around hammer striking everything." Krav is very meticulous with its techniques. I wish I could respond with more detail, but I have to cut this response short.

Yeah. But meticulous technique can sometimes be doing it wrong.

 

[Tames D]

Hard no for family discount.

Basically he's willing to lose a student. Instead of making less money with two students he''ll be making no money. I say leave.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

its better go a martial arts schoool that cost a lot and has good instructor than a cheap dojo who tech mcdojo

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Basically he's willing to lose a student. Instead of making less money with two students he''ll be making no money. I say leave.

And he doesn't understand retention. Someone who's training with someone (meaning a friend or family member) is likely to be more consistent in attendance and have a higher "quit threshold". That's part of the point of referral discounts and family pricing.

 

[jobo]

its better go a martial arts schoool that cost a lot and has good instructor than a cheap dojo who tech mcdojo

well that's undeniably a true statement, but he doesn't appear to have used any logical measure to determine that a) the new school IS a mac dojo and b) that the instruction is in any way inferior to the vastly more expensive school. Rather he seems to be assuming it must be, just on the grounds its cheaper! It's a fairly common marketing strategy to pitch products and services at the very expensive and of the market as people generally make the same assumption, like Apple for instance who charge 50% more for what is much the same product as people will pay for exclusivity, and just assume it must be better that a Samsungs for instance

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well that's undeniably a true statement, but he doesn't appear to have used any logical measure to determine that a) the new school IS a mac dojo and b) that the instruction is in any way inferior to the vastly more expensive school. Rather he seems to be assuming it must be, just on the grounds its cheaper! It's a fairly common marketing strategy to pitch products and services at the very expensive and of the market as people generally make the same assumption, like Apple for instance who charge 50% more for what is much the same product as people will pay for exclusivity, and just assume it must be better that a Samsungs for instance

Actually, he seems to be drawing his conclusion based upon an assumed length of training in KM, rather than the price. The TKD guy recently added KM to his offerings. That could mean he went to a weekend seminar and got his KM instructor certification. It could also mean he spent the past 5+ years training KM on the side and now feels ready to offer it at his school.

 

[jobo]

Actually, he seems to be drawing his conclusion based upon an assumed length of training in KM, rather than the price. The TKD guy recently added KM to his offerings. That could mean he went to a weekend seminar and got his KM instructor certification. It could also mean he spent the past 5+ years training KM on the side and now feels ready to offer it at his school.

which might have some relevance if it wasn't KM Which is just made up tosh, is learning made up tosh for five years better than learning made up tosh for the weekend?

And if course the abilities of the instructor to use KM has little o bearing on the qualities of their abilities to reach it.

Some o e with a life time in teaching ma, should be able to add KM to their portfolio with little difficulty

 

[Gerry Seymour]

which might have some relevance if it wasn't KM Which is just made up tosh, is learning made up tosh for five years better than learning made up tosh for the weekend?

And if course the abilities of the instructor to use KM has little o bearing on the qualities of their abilities to reach it.

Some o e with a life time in teaching ma, should be able to add KM to their portfolio with little difficulty

All styles are really made up tosh. It's stuff someone decided would work together in some useful fashion. I don't know enough of KM to know whether that judgement was reasonable or not, nor whether the tosh is reasonably consistent across the system.

If KM has actual techniques (meaning it has its own collection of them), then a weekend is not enough time for someone to gather what those are and be ready to teach them. Depending how much time they put in, a year could be, if they are already familiar with the principles used. I just chose 5+ years because it's reasonable for someone to learn a system (especially one that claims to have left out the stuff that makes it take longer to learn) part-time in those years, especially if they are an experienced MAist and instructor.

 

[Kababayan]

Yeah. But meticulous technique can sometimes be doing it wrong.

So true.

 

[Thisposthuman]

Ill try to clarify some points that have been brought up...BTW I really appreciate all the perspective provided by all of you


I call the cheaper place a mc dojo, only because i needed a quick label for the school providing KM, where the head instructor would barely out rank myself, and I have less than 2 full years of consistent training.
Otherwise on the TKD side, that school has produced some legit local competitors.

I am in KM strictly for self defense and fitness, after 19 months i have never bothered to belt test because I dont really care too.

The school I have been attending is the best there is in my city, i have been around, tried many different schools, these people are bad asses. however for my wife and I to be members there is going to be nearly $300 a month.

What I really need from any school is a good facility, equipment, and someone better than me to give me criticism.

 

[jobo]

Ill try to clarify some points that have been brought up...BTW I really appreciate all the perspective provided by all of you


I call the cheaper place a mc dojo, only because i needed a quick label for the school providing KM, where the head instructor would barely out rank myself, and I have less than 2 full years of consistent training.
Otherwise on the TKD side, that school has produced some legit local competitors.

I am in KM strictly for self defense and fitness, after 19 months i have never bothered to belt test because I dont really care too.

The school I have been attending is the best there is in my city, i have been around, tried many different schools, these people are bad asses. however for my wife and I to be members there is going to be nearly $300 a month.

What I really need from any school is a good facility, equipment, and someone better than me to give me criticism.

But I KM ranks people with a weekend of experience as instructors, based on prior learning, so he clearly out ranks you by a considerable amount, if you disagree with that then your issue is with the instruction of km, personally I think km is tosh, not because of this particularly just coz it's border line useless with out the underpinning principles its sacrificed for accelerated learning. Fundamental principals, that your led instructor will have in abundance, should he choose to reach h them

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The problem with Krav is the instructor in a weekend situation. If the TKD instructor has trained in Krav Maga for awhile and has the proficiency then you should not have an issue with his skill set. If he trained in a three day seminar then you get what you pay for.

Personally, in my opinion an Academy/School should work with their students for the benefit of both. If it is a "hard no" to that then they are probably all about their bottom line and really do not care about the welfare of their students. Three hundred a month for two family members is incredibly steep! As someone else mentioned that screams McDojo to me.

So as I see it you can train at your current place and work with your wife on the side or leave and go to the new place and train with your wife together there. Either way it probably works out for you but your wife would not get the ability to be critiqued by an accredited instructor which could depending on your abilities to teach be an issue.

 

[CB Jones]

I call the cheaper place a mc dojo, only because i needed a quick label for the school providing KM, where the head instructor would barely out rank myself, and I have less than 2 full years of consistent training.

This is why I hate the McDojo label.

Often times it’s used simply as someone trying to make their school look better by demeaning the other.

If someone’s school is better you should be able point out why based on it’s own merits.

 

[skribs]

And he doesn't understand retention. Someone who's training with someone (meaning a friend or family member) is likely to be more consistent in attendance and have a higher "quit threshold". That's part of the point of referral discounts and family pricing.

Other parts I'd say is that having a family buy-in is better than an individual buy-in. For example, if one person does the art, that person will help with events. If two or three do the art, then usually the whole family will help with events.

Another part is the administrative overhead. If you have two brothers taking an art, for example, then any paperwork their parents need to be signed only need to be explained once.

 

[Kababayan]

Unfortunately people tend to lump the true Krav Maga instructors together with the so called Krav Maga instructors out there. There is an idea that any person can get a Krav Maga instructor certification in a weekend. That simply isn't true if it is a resected Krav Maga Organization that has direct lineage back to Imi Lichtenfeld. Just because someone claims that they teach Krav Maga doesn't mean that they actually do. For years IKMA and KMWW have been trying to keep "Krav Maga" from becoming a generic term like "Karate". The places that advertise these weekend Krav Maga certifications are not representing actual Krav Maga, but an organization that has taken the name and principles of Krav and created something as their own. Commando Krav Maga is the first that comes to mind.

To be fair, you don't need a certificate in any martial art to be an instructor. I have never attended a Krav instructor certification course, but I have 35 years of martial arts, 12 years as a full-time dojo owner, and 6 years of Krav that says that I can teach it. I can only speak for KMWW, but their instructor certifications represent the teaching of certain levels, not the entire system. The Gracies also have that with their Combatives course.

Some martial artists are too quick to generalize all Krav Maga with the stuff that isn't actually true Krav Maga.

 

[jobo]

Unfortunately people tend to lump the true Krav Maga instructors together with the so called Krav Maga instructors out there. There is an idea that any person can get a Krav Maga instructor certification in a weekend. That simply isn't true if it is a resected Krav Maga Organization that has direct lineage back to Imi Lichtenfeld. Just because someone claims that they teach Krav Maga doesn't mean that they actually do. For years IKMA and KMWW have been trying to keep "Krav Maga" from becoming a generic term like "Karate". The places that advertise these weekend Krav Maga certifications are not representing actual Krav Maga, but an organization that has taken the name and principles of Krav and created something as their own. Commando Krav Maga is the first that comes to mind.

To be fair, you don't need a certificate in any martial art to be an instructor. I have never attended a Krav instructor certification course, but I have 35 years of martial arts, 12 years as a full-time dojo owner, and 6 years of Krav that says that I can teach it. I can only speak for KMWW, but their instructor certifications represent the teaching of certain levels, not the entire system. The Gracies also have that with their Combatives course.

Some martial artists are too quick to generalize all Krav Maga with the stuff that isn't actually true Krav Maga.

this sounds like a wing chun diatribe, real, true, original l lineage etal. Some one is either teaching valid techniques that are effective in a fight or they are not, if that counts as KM is another thing, as there is no accepted definition there seems no reason why they can't call it anything they want and be completely truthful

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

The obviously super fast Krav instructorship that has been handed out.. Krav is kind of tricky that way though because it is hard to judge its veracity.

A lot of military-based systems work this way. I was technically certified to instruct the first level of a combatives system after a 40-hour instructor course. It's absurd, but understand that these systems are designed to, at best, give a bunch of grunts a quick and dirty method of surviving a violent encounter, or, at worst, give the military from which it originates a way of saying "hey, we trained Private Snuffy how to defend from that attack, it's not our fault he panicked and got killed/shot someone." They aren't necessarily designed to be a way of life, and certainly aren't designed to develop us spiritually and ethically the way many traditional martial arts purport to do. That's why I generally prefer the traditional martial arts myself.

 

[dvcochran]

To the "Op": If you are asking the question to this group of talking heads, it seems apparent you are willing, maybe wanting to make some sacrifice to get you wife involved and spend some time doing something together. My advise is to work out together and, with a little subtle suggestion, maybe she will realize there is more to be had from MA and will want to move to something better in the near future. Or, like other have said, maybe you will find the other class satisfying. I hear too many answers from the single life folks and the rigid MA perspective only. My instructor says it best, a relationship that is all bad it bad, a relationship that is all good is bad, it takes both good and bad to have harmony. Sacrifice is a good thing. Hope this helps. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Sorry, but "the dues where I train are fairly steep" coupled with "hard no for family discount" says McDojo much louder than an experienced instructor teaching something he's only been training in himself for a couple of years.

Just my opinion though ...

I disagree that fairly steep dues and no family discounts makes a school a McDojo. It could be that the fairly steep dues are what the owner feels they can get a way with and still stay open and make a living. Notice the OP said they were the best school in his town, so if they are the best in his estimation than others probably feel the same and make the sacrifices (money wise) to go.

I was at a Krav school the other day where a friend of mine teaches, and that school had a really nice place with tons of equipment; different pads, body shields, focus mitts, hanging bags, boxing ring, all sorts of training guns (for gun defense), padded floors etc. etc. Way better and bigger with more equipment than I've ever seen in a karate school. All of this screams MORE CAPITAL INVESTMENT in the school which ultimately reflects higher prices to attend classes. Just cause they (referring to the OP's school) charge around $150 a month and feel they don't need to offer a family discount doesn't mean their a McDojo. It could mean they are being run as a business.

The problem with Krav is the instructor in a weekend situation. If the TKD instructor has trained in Krav Maga for awhile and has the proficiency then you should not have an issue with his skill set. If he trained in a three day seminar then you get what you pay for.

Personally, in my opinion an Academy/School should work with their students for the benefit of both. If it is a "hard no" to that then they are probably all about their bottom line and really do not care about the welfare of their students. Three hundred a month for two family members is incredibly steep! As someone else mentioned that screams McDojo to me.

So as I see it you can train at your current place and work with your wife on the side or leave and go to the new place and train with your wife together there. Either way it probably works out for you but your wife would not get the ability to be critiqued by an accredited instructor which could depending on your abilities to teach be an issue.

Brian

I agree with your post mostly, but I still disagree that just because they charge a hefty sum to attend their school doesn't mean they don't care about the welfare of their students or they are a McDojo. I mean if they have the place decked out with say the tatami type foam mats that are popular thus providing a safe floor to be thrown on (as opposed to puzzle mats or carpeting), or quality hanging bags in a sufficient number for the students to train on during and outside of class without having to wait, or they have multitudes of different training gear to use to enhance the students training experience, heck if they have clean bathrooms, showers or changing rooms, to help people feel comfortable and safe. Then they could have put a lot more thought into their school and how much people (their clientele) would care about the place then the strip mall KM school with the indoor outdoor carpeting and a few broken down or taped up hanging bags and the low prices and family discounts that allows anyone to come in and train.

Perhaps they don't want the family to train together. I mean they might want the tough crowd, the serious players only so to speak so the high price weeds out the mom and pops who want to have their kiddos join them in family class. Whether we, as other instructors, like it or not or agree with their business practices, is really immaterial because we don't know how their teaching is, what the place is like, etc. etc. anything really, except the OP thought it was the best place in town to train. So it doesn't sound like a McDojo to me.