Is the local Krav Maga school legit or a McDojo?

[RTKDCMB]

Maybe teach the instructors (who already know the material) instead of real students?

That's what I thought as well but I don't see how teaching someone who already knows equates well to teaching someone who doesn't.

 

[jks9199]

Thanks for finding that. It looks like takes a combined total of 156 hours of testing (21 days at 8 hours a day). Real question here: What's it take to be able to teach in most martial arts? I've mostly trained in MMA, and I never gave it much thought as long as the instructors knew a lot more than me I was happy. That seems like a lot to me, but what's it take in Kenpo, Hapkido, etc?

I can't speak for their general stuff, but there Force Protection Program is intense and focused. I can see learning to teach a specific curriculum in an intense week.

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[Buka]

The thread title queries if it's a McDojo. Is that really your question?

Go have fun for a while. Let us know what you think after that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So...Krav really does not exist as a distinct system or methodology? Why would someone with training in some legitimate method turn around and just slap a Krav label on it? Very odd.

For the same reason that some NGA schools list Karate, Jujutsu, and Judo on their window signs (those arts are a part of the foundation of the art): marketing. If an instructor is teaching the Krav Maga curriculum, using the principles they already know from another art, it's pretty much Krav, and that's something many people are looking for. Krav has some very good word-of-mouth marketing, with people buying into the story that it's immeasurably superior to "martial arts" (this, I think, is the reason so many want it to be called a "system" rather than an "art").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't speak for their general stuff, but there Force Protection Program is intense and focused. I can see learning to teach a specific curriculum in an intense week.

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I can see that, again, assuming the entire curriculum is something you are already capable of doing. I can't see someone without a similar background foundation becoming capable of teaching that effectively in a week.

 

[Justin Chang]

So...Krav really does not exist as a distinct system or methodology? Why would someone with training in some legitimate method turn around and just slap a Krav label on it? Very odd.

Because the label "Krav Maga" is selling right now. Someone looking for the best self defense who doesn't know martial arts googles it, first thing to pop up is Krav, they google Krav Maga in their area and the local Karate school pops up because they took a weekend instructors class and can teach the basics of self defense.

 

[Flatfish]

That's what I thought as well but I don't see how teaching someone who already knows equates well to teaching someone who doesn't.

Not sure, but I guess you could make deliberate mistakes or be more clumsy than usual and see if the other person can spot and correct those mistakes.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Do you teach TKD or American Karate? Slightly confused.

Sorry for the confusion. I teach what was commonly called American TKD, my lineage came from Jhoon Rhee, Allen Steen here in TX. While we learned the ITF forms we have no real connection to Korea. Nowadays due to marketing forces it is called American Karate in this area.

Often times due to the multitude of different styles practiced here by members of MT, I tend to emphasize the American TKD, aspect due to practicing the forms which is a fundamental aspect of the style. I try my best (in many posts where it might be important) to make sure it is understood that I don't practice "pure" TKD, but a modified form of it. While at the same time I'm used to now referring to it as American Karate, since I did study karate many years ago and many of the instructors I associate with did as well, and certain techniques or concepts are blended together from both arts. However the biggest reason for the term or name is for marketing or communication purposes.

In my attempts at trying to be respectful to those members that study both styles karate or TKD in the more traditional sense (schools or styles), I can be confusing and I apologize for that.

 

[Flying Crane]

For the same reason that some NGA schools list Karate, Jujutsu, and Judo on their window signs (those arts are a part of the foundation of the art): marketing. If an instructor is teaching the Krav Maga curriculum, using the principles they already know from another art, it's pretty much Krav, and that's something many people are looking for. Krav has some very good word-of-mouth marketing, with people buying into the story that it's immeasurably superior to "martial arts" (this, I think, is the reason so many want it to be called a "system" rather than an "art").

So... Krav has a curriculum? Is it devoid of fundamentals and just has "ideas" or something? Is "krav Maga" just Hebrew for "mixed self defense any way you like"?

 

[Justin Chang]

Krav Maga is Hebrew for face combat. It does have a curriculum which was derrived from various other arts.

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[Mark Lynn]

Krav generally takes its basic fundamentals from the arts the instructor has done previously. so the better the martial artist the better the Krav.

very much like mma.

I disagree here, KM has it's own system of training, it's own style per say. But let's face it a knee to the groin is a knee to the groin, the jab cross combination is pretty much the same in boxing as it is in KM, just like kick boxing, MT etc. etc. but it is different than say the front punch reverse punch of karate.

In fact being a long time martial artist might get in the way of the KM because of your previous trained responses.

So...Krav really does not exist as a distinct system or methodology? Why would someone with training in some legitimate method turn around and just slap a Krav label on it? Very odd.

KM does have its own system, it's own training methodology. It was designed to train the military/civilian population of Israel in a quick system of fighting. Which if you think about it makes sense for that country and it's population. It took aspects of different arts (boxing being one) and adapting them to create a SD system to help their soldiers and their countrymen fight back in a short period of time.


Why would someone with training in some legitimate method turn around and just slap a Krav label on it? Very odd

This isn't really what is going on in real KM schools. KM is a "legitimate method", however some schools/instructors might do this to make a quick buck but that isn't what a ture KM school is.

Because the label "Krav Maga" is selling right now. Someone looking for the best self defense who doesn't know martial arts googles it, first thing to pop up is Krav, they google Krav Maga in their area and the local Karate school pops up because they took a weekend instructors class and can teach the basics of self defense.

Basically you are right here, but I believe true KM is more than just the basics of self defense as it pertains to the local karate schools. KM is hot right now and due to marketing has been hot or a main stay since the late 90's onward. KM is seen as the place to learn about SD as it relates to gun defense, knife or edged, impact weapon, and empty hand defense. At the same time getting in a hell of a workout.

KM takes the art out of martial arts, they don't stress on teaching 10 yr olds to kick straight up like TKD might, they don't stress about rolling on mat trying to get the best ground game, they don't care about the history or lineage of a particular kata, they only really care about getting you home after an attack, oh and giving you a good work out. Boil it down to the nitty gritty and that's about it. This is karate school SD on steroids.

Now I'm not saying that KM is better than karate, TKD, BJJ, JKD, MMA or anything else and all of these schools or martial systems can teach SD, but their focus is also split as in teaching a martial art. KM's focus is on SD with fitness being a byproduct, but for the most part I think the "art" and all of the "do" (as in karate-do, Tae Kwon Do) aspects purposely removed. This then sets up different methodology and focus for the training in the school.

Disclaimer; I don't practice KM, I have never taken a class in KM. I have a friend who instructs at a KM school (which we have talked at length about), and I taught weapons defense at a KM school many years ago as KM was being introduced to the American public.

 

[Mark Lynn]

One question I have is about this:

"15 hours of mock teaching should be included in this time"

How does someone mock teach?

I think this is similar to what my friend did. During the course of the weekend you are required to teach in the class (of participants) different techniques or concepts that you are learning and you are watched, observed and graded by the instructors as to how well you teach and to make sure you are explaining things right. This is a quality control aspect of the training in the course.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's what I thought as well but I don't see how teaching someone who already knows equates well to teaching someone who doesn't.

Agreed. Part of learning to teach well is learning to recognize the source of mistakes and teaching them to people who don't understand.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So... Krav has a curriculum? Is it devoid of fundamentals and just has "ideas" or something? Is "krav Maga" just Hebrew for "mixed self defense any way you like"?

Of course it has fundamentals. My point was that those same fundamentals can be found in many arts, so someone who teaches those arts could easily pick up the simplified curriculum that KM represents. The ability to pick it up easily is actually one of the major selling points of KM, and applies doubly to those with experience in something with similar principles and/or techniques.

 

[Mark Lynn]

So... Krav has a curriculum? Is it devoid of fundamentals and just has "ideas" or something? Is "krav Maga" just Hebrew for "mixed self defense any way you like"?

No Krav is a legitimate style with fundamentals that were derived from different arts. However old KM and new KM are different in that KM has been updated and modified to be mass marketed. But the emphasis is more on the SD side of the spectrum instead of the art or spiritual side of the spectrum. Look at it this way.

In boxing you work on perfecting the basic combinations of three punches to fight in a ring against an opponent in sport form of dueling. So you spend hours upon hours working different combinations of those three punches developing the fundamentals of footwork, evasion skills pad work conditioning etc. etc. So in the KM school you learn the same punches, the same mechanics behind the punches, possibly the same pad drills but..... it is in context of fighting someone off of you who is not engaged in a sport duel, but is trying to hurt or kill you. So in KM during your defense you might low kick his knee then hit him with your punches after you have broken his balance. Same material but different emphasis, however for the SD side of things do you need to hone those boxing skills to the high level as you do in the ring?

This is similar to what I do with Modern Arnis (MA), MA was developed as a SD system first and foremost and a FMA stick fighting system second. We don't spend a whole lot of time (OK let me clarify, I was not taught this way nor do I teach it this way) stick sparring as in learning dueling. As a SD art I feel perfectly fine with teaching double stick material, locking, take downs, close in fighting etc. etc. where as if I was mainly concerned with the dueling aspect then I would concentrate on other things. However to schools in the FMAs that are mainly concerned with the dueling aspect MA might seem like a watered down system, when it is not. However my view is for the common person here in America they stand more of a chance having to defend themselves from an unwanted attack, then getting into a stick duel with a person (if they weren't seeking out the duel).

As KM has grown in popularity and instructors have split off, KM has fractured (for lack of a better term) like Modern Arnis, American Kempo, karate, TKD, Jujitsu etc. etc. True KM isn't "anything way you like", although I'm sure some blending is going on now.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for finding that. It looks like takes a combined total of 156 hours of testing (21 days at 8 hours a day). Real question here: What's it take to be able to teach in most martial arts? I've mostly trained in MMA, and I never gave it much thought as long as the instructors knew a lot more than me I was happy. That seems like a lot to me, but what's it take in Kenpo, Hapkido, etc?

Depends on what you mean by "teach." A detail-minded student with 6 months of training may be able to teach something useful to a new student with zero training. However they will be limited not only in the material they know to teach, but in their ability to recognize the specific corrections the new student needs, any modifications that particular student needs, in their ability to put the material into context, to explain the concepts, to demonstrate the "what-ifs" when a technique fails, and so on and so on.

In general, the amount of material you can teach well is less that the amount you have been exposed to, because it takes time to truly internalize the material to the point where you really understand it and aren't just parroting what you've been told. Even so, suppose an instructor went through 156 hours of training in KM and fully understood and retained every minute of it. That means that an equally talented student who comes to that instructor and trains only 3 hours per week for one year should now be just as qualified to teach as the original instructor. I don't think I'd bother going to an instructor who I could fully catch up to with a years worth of casual training.

 

[Tez3]

Not 'face combat' but קְרַב מַגָּע 'contact combat'