Knife Tapping; Making the U-Pattern Work?

[Blindside]

If use properly I beg to differ. One of the things I often see in class are some students kinda just going through the motions, they don't do things with true "intent" (for lack of a better term.) I would think adding an element of danger would produce the requisite intent.

It's kinda like going to a shoot house as a cop. When you do room clearing knowing the OPFOR has a gun loaded with simunitions, you are definitely clearing those rooms with the requisite intent because those things hurt lol.

That is mostly a training mindset thing. I don't find them terribly useful because I honor the weapon treating it as a sharp. If I have a student who isn't treating the sharkee that we normally train with as a knife I will up the ante to a sharper and heavier aluminum blade. I have never had a student go through the motion as the aluminum got nastier and the power being fed got harder. To me it is just a budget thing, I can replicate intent with a decent training partner, I don't need electricity. I think it is a nice tool but not hundreds of dollars nice.

 

[Charlemagne]

That is mostly a training mindset thing. I don't find them terribly useful because I honor the weapon treating it as a sharp. If I have a student who isn't treating the sharkee that we normally train with as a knife I will up the ante to a sharper and heavier aluminum blade. I have never had a student go through the motion as the aluminum got nastier and the power being fed got harder. To me it is just a budget thing, I can replicate intent with a decent training partner, I don't need electricity. I think it is a nice tool but not hundreds of dollars nice.

Agreed on the intent. That is such a crucial part of training, otherwise you end up playing patty-cake. When we do knife tapping, we walk out with bruises all over our arms, even with forearm padding at times. It's not really possible to create the stress of a live blade in training, but you do have to train in such a way that you are, at the very least, working with full speed and power.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Your comments are not unusual. First of all, tapping against someone who knows you are going to tap is all but impossible. Grand Tuhon Gaje is fond of saying "no one will tap your knife". Tuhon Waid echos this all the time. What they mean is that we are never going to allow someone to tap us, because we know it is coming. If I attack you on a #5 thrust, and I see you start to move towards the tap, I will simply cut out and move to my next thrust. And, because you have no choice except to honor my attack, my action towards the next thrust in my sequence will be faster than your reaction to the fact that have moved on to another attack. Long story short, you are not tapping against someone who knows the knife. You must control the range, and pray to God you see the knife coming.

Secondly, remember that knife tapping is not knife fighting. It is a last second holy crap technique when other things have already gone bad. Simply put, if you find yourself having to tap, you have screwed up big time. You either didn't see it coming in time, didn't execute footwork, or didn't attack yourself when you saw that it was officially "on". Either way, you have screwed the pooch at that point, and you are now stuck having to make the best of a really bad situation, aka knife tapping.

Finally, remember that the knife tap is supposed to be an attack to the person's arm, not simply passing the blade. So, the idea that you are going to execute more than one or two taps in a row is a misunderstanding of thinking that drilling knife tapping is the same thing as real world empty hand versus knife. You drill a bunch of attacks in sequence so that you can get reps of training, but that is not how it is going to be done.

This.

One objection I have to the way I've seen this sort of drill taught is that the rationale behind it often isn't explained. Students learn these sequences of tapping & passing that can be cycled through for a long time (either knife vs. knife or empty hand vs. knife) and there's the temptation to think that they could realistically fight or spar this way - staying in close while countering cut after cut. Realistically, if you're remaining at that range while a continuous sequence of attacks are being thrown with the knife, then one or both combatants will be sliced up in very short order.

To my mind, the proper function behind these exercises for the defender* is to get lots and lots and lots of repetitions practicing that "last second holy crap" (as you so accurately put it) defense so that if the moment ever occurs where it is necessary you have a chance of deflecting one or two attacks just long enough to disengage, deploy your own weapon, or get control of the opponent's weapon arm.

*(I have learned versions where the drill is primarily for the attacker rather than the defender - the knife wielder is just repetitively drilling methods of countering the deflections and clearing obstructions.)

 

[Charlemagne]

This.

One objection I have to the way I've seen this sort of drill taught is that the rationale behind it often isn't explained. Students learn these sequences of tapping & passing that can be cycled through for a long time (either knife vs. knife or empty hand vs. knife) and there's the temptation to think that they could realistically fight or spar this way - staying in close while countering cut after cut. Realistically, if you're remaining at that range while a continuous sequence of attacks are being thrown with the knife, then one or both combatants will be sliced up in very short order.

To my mind, the proper function behind these exercises for the defender* is to get lots and lots and lots of repetitions practicing that "last second holy crap" (as you so accurately put it) defense so that if the moment ever occurs where it is necessary you have a chance of deflecting one or two attacks just long enough to disengage, deploy your own weapon, or get control of the opponent's weapon arm.

*(I have learned versions where the drill is primarily for the attacker rather than the defender - the knife wielder is just repetitively drilling methods of countering the deflections and clearing obstructions.)

Thanks for your comments. In regards to your last point, that is true. There are certainly times when a knife tapping drill is about the person on offense rather than the person on counter-offense. Learning how to beat tapping and overcome barriers that someone might put in your way is an important thing, and drills like that teach this attribute. In addition, I am using the term "counter-offense" very deliberately. As I mentioned before, tapping should be an attack to the opposing person's arm whenever possible. The attitude I like to have is "how dare you attack me?" This puts me in the mindset of wanting to punish them for doing so. This will not always be possible obviously, but thinking and executing your tapping as an attack is absolutely important.

Real disarms as they are often taught is highly unlikely, but I have seen people drop the knife simply because someone really hammered them when performing a tap. Trapping, locking, etc. are also possible, but not if you can't perform the tap properly.

 

[Danny T]

Thanks for your comments. In regards to your last point, that is true. There are certainly times when a knife tapping drill is about the person on offense rather than the person on counter-offense. Learning how to beat tapping and overcome barriers that someone might put in your way is an important thing, and drills like that teach this attribute. In addition, I am using the term "counter-offense" very deliberately. As I mentioned before, tapping should be an attack to the opposing person's arm whenever possible. The attitude I like to have is "how dare you attack me?" This puts me in the mindset of wanting to punish them for doing so. This will not always be possible obviously, but thinking and executing your tapping as an attack is absolutely important.

Real disarms as they are often taught is highly unlikely, but I have seen people drop the knife simply because someone really hammered them when performing a tap. Trapping, locking, etc. are also possible, but not if you can't perform the tap properly.

Tapping Drill is important for the attacker as well...Absolutely.
I move he hurts; he moves he hurts.

For the most part disarms happen not because of doing a disarm but because of being in the proper position as I attack the disarm simply happens.