Repeating downward knife thrust defense?

[Rich Parsons]

To make things worse try the following:

Two knifes - both hands moving in opposite directions. i.e. when one goes up the other goes down.

Have the person with both in ice pick, then both in hammer grips then mix tehm one of each and see what happens. How the differences are.

If both in hammer and looking for advanced try it with some rompida (* wrist rotation so you always have the edge on the side of the blade that is moving. This should look like a scissors for the blades if they were close to each other.

 

[punisher73]

I've gone over the use of the X block a few times, and I too, am a bit cautious on its use. Here's why. IMO, during many knife defenses, the use of the attackers other hand is often over looked. Seems like many focus on just the weapon hand, and forget that the badguy could be striking with his free hand. So, it could be possible for the BG, to use his free hand to check our X block, and pull the blade back, cutting us in the process. We do a knife drill in class, where the person with the knife is executing various stabs on the other person. After the defender parries and/or blocks, depending on the strike, the attacker uses his free hand to check and pulls the knife.

However, this doesn't mean that I threw the X block out altogether. Its slightly altered, so that say for a straight thrust, we're moving off on an angle, doing a downward type block with one hand and once the blade is redirected, the other hand comes into play. So in a way, its still an X block, but the hands initially are not together.

For the over head stab, the X could still be used, and keeping the motion going, redirect the blade towards the attacker. Of course, while working various defenses, I've also used a single upward type block with one hand, while counter striking with the other. I do this in hopes to buy myself a little time and momentarily take the focus off of the knife, so I can continue my defense.

Couple of things. When you start talking about the attacker's other hand you are starting to delve into someone who knows what they are doing with a knife or with fighting. I think the original topic was to address somebody just grabbing a knife and trying to stab you like Norman Bates. That is a completely different attack and mindset than someone who knows how to fight and is just using the overhead line of attack.

The x-block is just meant to be a temporary stopping point so to speak and is based on most people's natural flinch response, so it can be pulled off easier than more complicated respones. You raise your arms and jam the attack as you move offline and then use the arms to pass and control the attacking limb. This is a very good response against an untrained attacker with the knife because you don't have to worry about other variables as a trained attacker.

The other thing I notice is that anytime a knife is mentioned people automatically assume that the person is versed in FMA. For the average person learning skills time would be better spent learning responses that fit the average criminal attack and then add in more later.

 

[arnisador]

Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though.

But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.

When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.

 

[joeygil]

Thanks for all the responses and thoughtful commentary.


My original post was about an untrained attacker. Not even necessarily a criminal, who would have a plan and doesn't want to die- but as mentioned "Norman Bates."

In a case like that, this "X-block" might very well be effective - just not against a trained opponent (already covered).

Interesting point about the 11 year old nephew. Problem with that scenario is my sister would hate it if I ended up throwing that sungkite to her son's eyes or knees to the groin.

 

[OCman44]

OCman et al,

It would be negligent of those of us to reply that if you do X then you are safe. If a person walks away with the idea that they have seen it once or talked about it on the internet and or practiced it once or twice that it will always work, then that is bad. As that person walking from this would be in a bad situation thinking that had something.

If a person trains for blade work they soon realize that hands move and blades shift and people clash and the more realistic people say if the blade touches them then they are cut or injured. This is to amke people think and realize they need to practice and even if they do not to expect a magic bullet, golden egg, brass ring, what have you to save them.

It takes work.

Oh yes, I perfectly understand that training in knife defense will take time. Im not expecting to goto 1 or 2 training sessions and expect to know how to defend myself, I know that its going to take awhile and Im willing to go the length of saying that Im willing to take the time thats needed to become proficient in Kali(if thats possible). You'd be safe to say that Im rather obsessed with wanting to train in Kali(and ill train in it for yrs once I start)

What im saying is that I've done alot of research for the past yr or a little more, spoke to a lot of ppl in-person, visited training facilities, spoke with instructors and my main reason for wanting to train in Kali is for self defense as well as some other reasons(A fun hobby, confidence of knowing an amazing self defense art) which is where Im going with this. Self defense. I know the original poster is speaking about defending someone who's trained in fighting with a knife. From some of the responses, a decent amount of posts stated that you'd likely be dead or rather get hurt badly and Im befuddled by that. Why I posted was because seing as how Kali is primarily a weapon based art I figured that if someone(trained in Kali) were to defend against an attacker wielding a knife that yes you'd have a chance to defend it more successfully vs someone who has no training at all.

Now, I don't know if the OP is talking about an attacker with a knife going against someone trained in Kali or attacking someone who has no experience in Kali so maybe Im reading into this whole thing wrong.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Oh yes, I perfectly understand that training in knife defense will take time. Im not expecting to goto 1 or 2 training sessions and expect to know how to defend myself, I know that its going to take awhile and Im willing to go the length of saying that Im willing to take the time thats needed to become proficient in Kali(if thats possible). You'd be safe to say that Im rather obsessed with wanting to train in Kali(and ill train in it for yrs once I start)

What im saying is that I've done alot of research for the past yr or a little more, spoke to a lot of ppl in-person, visited training facilities, spoke with instructors and my main reason for wanting to train in Kali is for self defense as well as some other reasons(A fun hobby, confidence of knowing an amazing self defense art) which is where Im going with this. Self defense. I know the original poster is speaking about defending someone who's trained in fighting with a knife. From some of the responses, a decent amount of posts stated that you'd likely be dead or rather get hurt badly and Im befuddled by that. Why I posted was because seing as how Kali is primarily a weapon based art I figured that if someone(trained in Kali) were to defend against an attacker wielding a knife that yes you'd have a chance to defend it more successfully vs someone who has no training at all.

Now, I don't know if the OP is talking about an attacker with a knife going against someone trained in Kali or attacking someone who has no experience in Kali so maybe Im reading into this whole thing wrong.

If the opponent is a skilled blade fighter and you are a skilled blade fighter the winner could be the one to watch the other die before he dies. That is the reality of a blade encounter.

When I train with other who know blade work we all end up with red marks on are arms (* aluminum blades - no edges but still metal for feel of contact and impact *) and hands. This shows that unless your timing is perfect you will be just a little bit off and you can get cut. Now those that are trained usually get cut in locations that would allow them to continue.

So, one could train in an FMA to get better at blades and be better than the average person on the street. I have taken blades away from people in real life encounters. I have scars on my arm and one on my leg from being cut. Those who train with the blade are many times some of the most humble as we know the attributes of the weapon and understand its' effects.

If you enjoy the training it would be good for you as if you enjoy it people do it.

If you want the self defense it is good for that as well as it has some good points and treats and "respects" what the blade can do.

If you compare, and I am biased here as a practitioner of FMA's, I think the FMA's teach very well the blade and stick weapons. I think one can learn a lot of self defense. If you are prepared for the blade then the stick moving as fast but as impact is not as big a worry. It is to be respected as it can still take you out but you begin to feel more comfortable with it. The same goes for empty hands. Once weapons start to move, moving back to empty hands can give a person more time to think and respond. As there is more distance the the tip of the weapon (* stick or blade *) is moving faster than an empty hand.

Having respect for something does not mean the trainnig is bad.

I have respect for driving. I have had lots of exposure and some training that normal drivers do not get. Just access to test sites and vehicles. But I still respect the vehicle.

Familiarity breeds contempt in many cases, but for the blade work I think most are realistic in the FMA's.

Some people just drive their car. They have training from a long time ago and never refresh it. They do not check out new laws or the capabilities of vehicles. They drive "safe" and avoid bad roads or going off-road. They know their limitations or are afraid of what could happen and avoid certain situations.

The self defense person learns to avoid situations as well, by learning how they carry a blade and how others carry a blade and recognizing it. The same is true for firearms. Once you get used to scanning people for weapons it becomes second nature. Many also scan people and rate their threat level. Some out of fear. Some out of ego. Many for self defense and to avoid a situation.

But how does one begin to see this learning? They train with the weapon and with others who know the weapon. You have an interest. Keep it and check it out. The investment is worth while from my point of view and opinion.

Many people who never been attacked would jsut stand and be stabbed.

Many people who have trained empty hand would freeze as well with the knife as they would not know what to do.

Many others would just reach out and try to grab it. While this might work with the untrained or lessor trained, the original poster stated skilled opponent. So I would expect many people to get stabed here as well.

The few trained opponents going up against trained opponents will depend upon a lot of conditions of training, sleep, awareness, etcetera.

I have an expereince of a guy with an axe handle chasing peopel around and he came at me. I grabed a training stick out of my car and passed off and down as I was creating room. I swung again I repeated the move form the other side. He stepped back and stated, "I will be back for you later."

While I had only been training a few months at that time, I knew enough to match his skill and intent that he decided to go after others. To many present this guy was a skilled axe wielding opponent as he was large and swung it hard and did not over extend himself to allow people to close and tackle him down. He could have been and probably had more training time with his weapon than I did. I may have been lucky. But it was enough for the self defense encounter to keep the bad guy who was bigger than me away from me with a bigger and longer weapon that I had.

 

[joeygil]

@OCMan

I think the general consensus is, Kali is probably the best MA you can study for knife defense. But even that won't make you invincible. It may save your life in an altercation, but don't be surprised if you get cut in the process.

This is knife vs. empty hand I brought up. I know a lot of folks around here carry a small pocket folder or something else that can be used as an equalizer. That's a completely different game.

I personally don't have much knife experience, and have just gotten back into Kali recently - so don't take me or my questions as an example of an experienced FMAer.

 

[mook jong man]

@OCMan

I think the general consensus is, Kali is probably the best MA you can study for knife defense. But even that won't make you invincible. It may save your life in an altercation, but don't be surprised if you get cut in the process.

This is knife vs. empty hand I brought up. I know a lot of folks around here carry a small pocket folder or something else that can be used as an equalizer. That's a completely different game.

I personally don't have much knife experience, and have just gotten back into Kali recently - so don't take me or my questions as an example of an experienced FMAer.

In my country if the police catch you with a knife on you , chances are you will be going to jail.

 

[arnisador]

This is knife vs. empty hand I brought up. I know a lot of folks around here carry a small pocket folder or something else that can be used as an equalizer. That's a completely different game.

Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, especially if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!

 

[punisher73]

Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though.

But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.

When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.

I work in LE, and I'm one of our depts knife instructors, I am no where near the experience as alot of the FMAists on this board and don't claim to be. But, I am aware of what most criminal attacks are and try to keep up on that. I can't remember where I saw/read the statistic, but it was a VERY high percentage (over 75%) of knife attacks involved a heat of the moment type thing and it was an overhead strike the second type of attack was repeated abdominal thrusts. Again, the 'average' person is much more likely to encounter that (not including bouncers, security, police etc.) in their lives than the other type of attack. It should also go without saying that knowing your location and where you hang out greatly effects things as well too.

One of my first karate instructors was being threatened by someone holding a knife and he hit the arm with two inward hammer strikes and broke the forearm and the guy dropped the knife. Only point that out because there is a big difference when someone is threatening and attacking and you must undertand the dynamics of the situation.

 

[Sandstorm]

Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though..

Agreed. There are generally two types of carrier in my opinion/experience. The first is the paranoid potential 'victim' who thinks he/she should have it for protection, and there's those with criminal intent. The former will have no idea how to use it, let alone deploy it for defence, and even if they do, chances are they will end up being stabbed by their own blade. The latter will have at least minimal experience, as well as the psychological advantage, as his/her mindset will be adjusted for the use of the knife.

But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.

When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.

The marker pen drill is a good one. Chalking or putting lipstick on a plastic blade and practicing the '30 second slice and dice' is another excellent way to realise how dangerous it is and how vulnerable you are.

In my country if the police catch you with a knife on you , chances are you will be going to jail.

Likewise here in the UK. Even a pocket utility knife such as a Swiss Army knife can get you in trouble. You need a damned good reason to have one on your person.

Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, especially if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!

Again, agreed. Deploying any knife or weapon of any kind takes extreme reaction under that pressure. You are in the heat of a volatile situation where your life is in immediate danger. If you don't have the mindset of a 'fighter', it's going to be tough without the knife, Let alone with one and remembering it's in your pocket.

I work in LE, and I'm one of our depts knife instructors, I am no where near the experience as alot of the FMAists on this board and don't claim to be. But, I am aware of what most criminal attacks are and try to keep up on that. I can't remember where I saw/read the statistic, but it was a VERY high percentage (over 75%) of knife attacks involved a heat of the moment type thing and it was an overhead strike the second type of attack was repeated abdominal thrusts. Again, the 'average' person is much more likely to encounter that (not including bouncers, security, police etc.) in their lives than the other type of attack. It should also go without saying that knowing your location and where you hang out greatly effects things as well too..

Those statistics sound about right. Chances are very slim you are going to be facing an experienced and trained individual. You are more likely to encounter someone with 'street' knowledge, who can look after themselves and know how to hold the blade and thrust etc. They will not be aiming for dibilitating slices like an experienced knifer. they will most likely be looking for the stab or thrust at the head or stomach. More knowledgable users will more likely go for main arteries and subtle slices to incapacitate the opponant.

One of my first karate instructors was being threatened by someone holding a knife and he hit the arm with two inward hammer strikes and broke the forearm and the guy dropped the knife. Only point that out because there is a big difference when someone is threatening and attacking and you must undertand the dynamics of the situation.

I spent 8 years working nightclub doors, and I had mainly to deal with open hand attacks. When weapons were involved, it was usually stools or ash trays or glass etc. I only encountered 5 knives. 3 of those were attackers and I got cut once, by one attacker in one incident. I had my jacket shredded by one as I tried to restrain him and took a slice on the forearm. Fortunately I overpowered him and managed to get him to the floor with my knee in his back and his knife arm bent up above my knee. He still held the blade. Two coleagues came over and one held his legs and the other reinforced my hold on his arm. It was over in a flash, the whole thing from start to finish and the police took the guy away. I was lucky enough to not need stitches as the cut wasn't deep. Had the guy been more experienced, or this not happened in the winter, I would have suffered worse injuries for sure.

I respect anyone who faces this stuff regularly, such as LE and security. If a knife is being pulled, chances are there is intent to use. Your Karate instructor did the wise thing IMO, but having no real in depth knowledge of the situation and the opponant etc, it's hard to say for certain. Point is, there was intent, and if you can spot that in time, and the opponant appears nervous and unskilled, sure, why not go for it. Personally, I would never go for it unless I knew without a shadow of doubt that there was nowhere to run, hide or avoid the situation. If it's your job, you have no choise but to get stuck in there and deal with it. The average Joe on the street? They should avoid it at all costs.

Just my opinion of course. I really wish I could sit here and say 'yeah, you know, that spinning backfist/split entry uppercut/sweep/gooseneck lock combo works a treat on a knifer'. I'm sorry, I can't. This isn't a Van Damme/Seagal movie

 

[Rich Parsons]

Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, especially if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!

This is true from my experience.

 

[OCman44]

Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?

Knife vs Empty Hands
Knife vs knife
etc..etc..etc

Kali trains in many different situations based off the weapon type correct? Thats the impression I've gotten from my learnings that Ive experienced.

Example: The Bourne movie where he picks up a pen and defends himself vs another knife. Or another scene where he's empty handed while defending against the guy who's wielding a knife.

What im asking is that Kali does train in the different situations based off what a persons wielding whether it be an edged weapon or empty hands?

 

[Sandstorm]

Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?

Yes, it is

Kali trains in many different situations based off the weapon type correct? Thats the impression I've gotten from my learnings that Ive experienced.

Example: The Bourne movie where he picks up a pen and defends himself vs another knife. Or another scene where he's empty handed while defending against the guy who's wielding a knife.

What im asking is that Kali does train in the different situations based off what a persons wielding whether it be an edged weapon or empty hands?

Seriously, don't look at the movies for how effective an art is. People would be doing Van Damme flying kicks outside nightclubs if this were the case:ultracool

Kali primarily covers the knife and stick. There is also Sarong work which is really useful, especially if you like wearing scarves in winter
While some of the techniques may well work against certain opponants in certain situations, you have to look at it realistically. Turn the coin over and see yourself as the knife wielding attacker. Are you going to leave your arm out for your victim to grab and twist? Are you going to thrust directly forward with an inside step to allow him to take an outside entry/straight arm bar/drop and roll? Chances are, you are going to cut and thrust quickly and unpredictably. Seriously, try out some techniques, as suggested, using a marker pen and a white shirt. Get the person to slash across the shirt as you try and impliment your grabs and locks. It is very very hard, even for someone who's trained for many years.
What you will learn through flow drills, is reactions, timing and speed. You will be much better equipped to handle most situations for sure. It all depends on the situation itself as to wether or not you should.

Summary.....

Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.
Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely
Why? Because you will gain a better understanding of knife mechanics. You will appreciate the dangers and be aware of what is and what isn't viable in self defence. You will also learn to respect the knife. IMO, these things are far more important than some instructor making you drill out unrealistic techniques that could end up putting you in hospital or a grave.

One more thing, if you want to look at Kali in the movies, The Hunted is pretty good. It's one of the more realistic fight sequences in the end, with both fighters in very bad condition after the confrontation:ultracool

Please don't be put off by this. Kali really is a wonderful art and you should enjoy learning it. Chances of you ever needing to use it are minimal anyway. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers

 

[OCman44]

Yes, it is




Seriously, don't look at the movies for how effective an art is. People would be doing Van Damme flying kicks outside nightclubs if this were the case:ultracool

Kali primarily covers the knife and stick. There is also Sarong work which is really useful, especially if you like wearing scarves in winter
While some of the techniques may well work against certain opponants in certain situations, you have to look at it realistically. Turn the coin over and see yourself as the knife wielding attacker. Are you going to leave your arm out for your victim to grab and twist? Are you going to thrust directly forward with an inside step to allow him to take an outside entry/straight arm bar/drop and roll? Chances are, you are going to cut and thrust quickly and unpredictably. Seriously, try out some techniques, as suggested, using a marker pen and a white shirt. Get the person to slash across the shirt as you try and impliment your grabs and locks. It is very very hard, even for someone who's trained for many years.
What you will learn through flow drills, is reactions, timing and speed. You will be much better equipped to handle most situations for sure. It all depends on the situation itself as to wether or not you should.

Summary.....

Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.
Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely
Why? Because you will gain a better understanding of knife mechanics. You will appreciate the dangers and be aware of what is and what isn't viable in self defence. You will also learn to respect the knife. IMO, these things are far more important than some instructor making you drill out unrealistic techniques that could end up putting you in hospital or a grave.

One more thing, if you want to look at Kali in the movies, The Hunted is pretty good. It's one of the more realistic fight sequences in the end, with both fighters in very bad condition after the confrontation:ultracool

Please don't be put off by this. Kali really is a wonderful art and you should enjoy learning it. Chances of you ever needing to use it are minimal anyway. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers

well I know not to base an art off of a movie but I'm giving examples of what I'm wondering about kali and its techniques I.e. knife vs knife. pen vs knife. hand to hand.. what I'm wondering is if a situation like that in the movie where he picks up a pen vs the knife attacker. is that somethin someone in kali could do if something came up like that. could someone pick up a pen(edged weapon) and use the techniques that you learned with a knife.

also I'm als very interested in the empty hand part of the training. I know theres Panatuken part of kali that empty hand. how is the empty hand techniques of kali in real world self defense against someone else who's empty hand. sort of like a fist fight. and are empty hand techniques effective or decent against wild swingers?(which a lot of realistic fights turn out to be)

 

[Sandstorm]

You can use anything to your advantage once you've grasped the concept of handling an impliment. If you train with the Rattan stick, you will get a fel for movement and grip. It's no good picking up a broom if you can't keep hold of it:mst:
As for the pen, absolutely, of course. Everything and anything can be used. As I said, you will most likely learn the Sarong, which you could swap for rope or chain or a scarf etc etc. Everything is possible.

As for the movies etc, I'm sure you're not looking at them as being a good guide. Try watching these clips on Youtube. Oftentimes, youtube has some dodgy people displaying nonsense, but when you come across good ones, they really are good. Some of the clips are Ray Dionaldo, who is an exceptional Kali practitioner/FMAer. There are also clips of Guru Inosanto in there and some military training.

Enjoy...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtBAm88ETI&feature=PlayList&p=909027F6EDB27236&playnext=1&index=2

 

[MJS]

Couple of things. When you start talking about the attacker's other hand you are starting to delve into someone who knows what they are doing with a knife or with fighting. I think the original topic was to address somebody just grabbing a knife and trying to stab you like Norman Bates. That is a completely different attack and mindset than someone who knows how to fight and is just using the overhead line of attack.

Ahh...good points. Of course, I'm wondering if its possible for the person to pull the knife down on the defenders hands, even if they're not using their other hand. I'll have to play around with that.

The x-block is just meant to be a temporary stopping point so to speak and is based on most people's natural flinch response, so it can be pulled off easier than more complicated respones. You raise your arms and jam the attack as you move offline and then use the arms to pass and control the attacking limb. This is a very good response against an untrained attacker with the knife because you don't have to worry about other variables as a trained attacker.

Absolutely. I have no issues with that type of block, as long as it flows to something else. In other words, be fluid, not robotic when using the block. There're a few other Arnis and Kenpo techniques that use the block.

The other thing I notice is that anytime a knife is mentioned people automatically assume that the person is versed in FMA. For the average person learning skills time would be better spent learning responses that fit the average criminal attack and then add in more later.

Agreed. I've said many times that the person whos trying to mug me at the ATM probably isn't a BJJ BB or FMA master. Of course, speaking for myself only, I'd rather assume the worst...in other words, have the knowledge to deal with the person if they were trained and not need it, vs. not having the training and wishing I had.

 

[MJS]

Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?

Knife vs Empty Hands
Knife vs knife
etc..etc..etc

Kali trains in many different situations based off the weapon type correct? Thats the impression I've gotten from my learnings that Ive experienced.

Example: The Bourne movie where he picks up a pen and defends himself vs another knife. Or another scene where he's empty handed while defending against the guy who's wielding a knife.

What im asking is that Kali does train in the different situations based off what a persons wielding whether it be an edged weapon or empty hands?

Yes to all of your questions. I've worked empty hand vs. knife, knife vs. knife, knife vs. stick, stick vs. empty hand. That is the beauty of the FMAs....you can work, with some slight modifications, a stick vs. stick technique, even if you were empty handed. I could do the same thing if I hand a knife and they had a stick.

A pen, while it won't be the same as a real blade, can deliver some devastating hits.

 

[tellner]

Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.
Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely

Not really.

Kali is only one of several martial arts that offers effective knife and counter-knife training. The Russians are very good at this sort of thing. So are the Indonesians. The Arabs are no slouches. Neither are the Basque. I've had a bit of FMA over the years. What I recently realized is that it's very, very easy to use a knife to kill someone. A lot easier than most of the FMA teachers I've seen let on. And defending against one is a lot harder.

Some of the teachers really don't know what they're doing because that's how they were taught. A lot of good ones know but don't teach out of a sense of responsibility. It's just too easy, and do you really want to show everyone who walks through the door how easy it is to kill? You don't if you are any sort of decent human being.

I've met a lot of Pinoys who say "My father (or uncle, or grandfather) was really good, but he wouldn't teach me. He said we don't need that in America."

Some of the very good teachers like Guro Inosanto and the late Suro Inay took a lot of the really murderous knife work out of their public teaching and reserved it for a few advanced students if they taught it at all. Much of the "defang the snake" or "negotiating position" stuff will give the student some useful skills. But it is oriented towards self defense with a minimum of dead bodies rather than zipping the other guy as efficiently as possible.

One more thing, if you want to look at Kali in the movies, The Hunted is pretty good. It's one of the more realistic fight sequences in the end, with both fighters in very bad condition after the confrontation:ultracool

When they were shooting The Hunted in my fair city I ran into the main Sayoc trainer in the downtown bus mall. I had his card but lost it years ago. We got to talking, and he complained at how unrealistic he had to make some of it. At one point the director wanted a four minute knife fight between two strong, trained adult men where nobody would get seriously hurt. I maintain that the only way to do that is to have a big-*** steel wall between the two of them.

Please don't be put off by this. Kali really is a wonderful art and you should enjoy learning it. Chances of you ever needing to use it are minimal anyway. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers

 

[Sandstorm]

Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.

While I stand by this ^ statement....

Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely

....I did over-generalise in this ^ one. I was using the 'other' arts as being the more contemporary ones. Those that are much more readily available to learn. Not sure how popular Silat is over there, for example, but I do vouch for it's use of knife work. (after al, the Karambit is my favourite knife to work with).
As for other arts, well, there are of course arts that cover the knife, such as Krav Maga, Systema etc, but not having much personal experience with those I can't really say, I do see them has not being as 'complete' as Kali/FMA's with regards to knife work though. just my opinion from what I've seen.

Not really.

Kali is only one of several martial arts that offers effective knife and counter-knife training. The Russians are very good at this sort of thing. So are the Indonesians. The Arabs are no slouches. Neither are the Basque. I've had a bit of FMA over the years. What I recently realized is that it's very, very easy to use a knife to kill someone. A lot easier than most of the FMA teachers I've seen let on. And defending against one is a lot harder. .

It is, indeed, very very easy to kill. It is indeed very difficult to defend, I agree completely with that. One of the problems I encounter is the complacency some have over knife defence, treating the knife like it's just an extention of the hand. And when you go to seminars or see displays, you are almost always shown over the top execution. I agree with displaying in such a way, but teaching a class is very different. It's all fine to show thirty slices/strikes in one sitting against a single thrust, for example, when just a simple one-two would be more than enough. To actually 'teach' like that would be ridiculous. Knife work needs to maintain realism if that is what the student is training for. If they are training for the flashy moves and display element, that's fine, as long as they are aware it's not going to work like that in a real encounter.

Some of the teachers really don't know what they're doing because that's how they were taught. A lot of good ones know but don't teach out of a sense of responsibility. It's just too easy, and do you really want to show everyone who walks through the door how easy it is to kill? You don't if you are any sort of decent human being..

I've always maintained in other posts the importance of the instructor over the art itself. I am somewhat contradicting myself here, due to the nature of these arts in particular. On saying that, if the Kali teacher is rubbish, you may as well buy one of those online certificate/DVD packages I love so much%-}. Bottom line.... If you're looking for knife training, find a 'good' Kali instructor, or look around for Silat/Krav etc. I got the impression that Kali was the art that OCman44 wanted to learn.

When they were shooting The Hunted in my fair city I ran into the main Sayoc trainer in the downtown bus mall. I had his card but lost it years ago. We got to talking, and he complained at how unrealistic he had to make some of it. At one point the director wanted a four minute knife fight between two strong, trained adult men where nobody would get seriously hurt. I maintain that the only way to do that is to have a big-*** steel wall between the two of them.

I've seen and read some of the 'behind the scenes' stuff, and although the movie isn't great, it does have some of the most realistic knife scenes in it. I agree that the scenes were a bit longer than a real knife fight would be and having experienced blades on a number of occasions, I can certainly vouch for it not being a four minute ordeal at all. More like seconds. Bottom line there is, it's a movie.

Did you not get to train with the guys when they were in Oregon then, Tellner? We have very very limited FMA access in the UK and working with the Sayok Kali group would be pretty good I should imagine.