Knife Fighting

[Dale Seago]

Don, I've done that on occasion, as have a number of my students, and it's also something I explicitly teach.

From my experience, when I had a knife in my pocket if I did not pull it upon first thought of approach, it would be too late and remain in my pocket through the altercation. If a weapon is out of your reach, then it is out of the fight. If you have no time to get it yourself. There are clear drills for getting range and dealing with accessing the weapon, but if you get into trapping and grappling range, and reamin there, you have to have a weapon in a place you can acesss without giving the opponent too much of a momentary advantage. Some FMA's teach you to check the opponent for your own safety and for access to a weapon while your hands are busy with the opponent.

Rich, I agree with you here. Regarding your last sentence in particular, this is something Hatsumi sensei teaches as well.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Don, I've done that on occasion, as have a number of my students, and it's also something I explicitly teach.



Rich, I agree with you here. Regarding your last sentence in particular, this is something Hatsumi sensei teaches as well.

Dale,

Good Technique is not unique to one specific art. :asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Dale,

Good Technique is not unique to one specific art. :asian:

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

 

[Rich Parsons]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

Well, I know I would have, and have had issues with such an idea in print with my name attached to it. I know this to be true of one of my instructors as well.

Those in the know would see it as common sense, and they can come and see me or others and get that training. Yet, in the USA a Knife is an offensive weapon while the gun is a defensive weapon. So, if you teach people to have a weapon out, the person coming at you is no longer the aggressor, or at least in Michigan this is true. You have elevated the situation even if the other person does not know it. Why did you pull it, unless you intended to stab or cut the bad person. What this means in the eyes of the law is that this is premeditated and therefore not self defense.

Why do not others put it in print? I am not sure. but they may have had some legal advice in North America. As to other countries and older texts, one might assume that pre 20th century, every one carried a knife as a tool and also as a last resort fo self defense. In some places it might be pre 19th century.

 

[Don Roley]

So, if you teach people to have a weapon out, the person coming at you is no longer the aggressor, or at least in Michigan this is true. You have elevated the situation even if the other person does not know it. Why did you pull it, unless you intended to stab or cut the bad person. What this means in the eyes of the law is that this is premeditated and therefore not self defense.

Interesting. During the little incident, I did not deploy the blade and had my thumb ready to do so. Aside from the 'click' it makes, on some level I was thinking of being able to take care of a situation using it more like a koppo stick if it turned out to be no weapons involved. As soon as I could see both of his hands, I knew this to be the case.

What about knives like the Gunting, that are designed to be used with the blade closed? It seems like you might be setting yourself up for some real trouble by going half way with using a knife when the law only knows one or the other.

 

[Dale Seago]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

It's kuden rather than formal-transmission material.

The legal issue is of course important to us. Accessing a folder in advance, while keeping it concealed, is not necessarily in itself illegal because it does not constitute "brandishing" the tool. It's not threatening anyone. Generally speaking, if it's legal to carry on your person it's legal to hold it in your hand.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Interesting. During the little incident, I did not deploy the blade and had my thumb ready to do so. Aside from the 'click' it makes, on some level I was thinking of being able to take care of a situation using it more like a koppo stick if it turned out to be no weapons involved. As soon as I could see both of his hands, I knew this to be the case.

What about knives like the Gunting, that are designed to be used with the blade closed? It seems like you might be setting yourself up for some real trouble by going half way with using a knife when the law only knows one or the other.

Well speaking from local laws only, the prosecuters will open the blade and show the jury or judge what could have happened or what you were willing to do with the weapon. If your truly want to use a Gunting like device the obtain the trainer or the CRIMPT (* usually law enforcement *) for impact only. In other states it might be a little different, yet most states refer to the blade as an offensive weapon.

Click on the sponsor for the Armory, GLSDA, and register there, as they try to educate and lobby for laws that are user friendly for self defense.


The tool itself is not a bad idea or design, it just does not sit well inside of my pocket. The ramp pokes me, and the pocket holder does as well. Not on my loose jeans or work dress pants (* Which I am not allowed to have the device *). But if I ride on my motor cycle it is uncomfortable.

So, I carry pens for the type of impact technqiues, and if I carry a blade it is capable of being carried no matter what I wear, shorts, work slacks, jeans, etcetera.

 

[arnisador]

I've heard the Gunting argued both ways...that if kept closed it's "only" a nonlethal tool, and that even if you use it closed you are still using a (deadly) knife on someone. I don't know what people would say...I know in the well-known NYC bouncer case (bouncer killed while trying to eject a smoking patron), the judge cited the "evil-looking" knife as part of his reason for the sentence he imposed. (Lots of discussion of this on Eskrima Digest.) I think the Gunting is a good idea, but expect grief if it's found on you, I'd guess.

 

[arnisador]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

He has posted some interesting material on Eskrima Digest recently. It's lead to a discussion that is somewhat politically incorrect, but still makes interesting reading. See e.g. the link contained here.

I bought his recent 'Secrets' book but haven't started it yet.

 

[Cruentus]

Don,


I know Paul J teaches the pull and make it available technqiues, as well as the legal ramifications of the local state.

We do cover this extensively in our programs. Our basic idea is that a weapon is no good unless it is in your hand and available. We cover tactics from many diffferent possibilities, including palm ready and pocket ready tactics.

I will agree, though, that most martial arts schools don't cover these aspects. Generally speaking, it doesn't fit their training objectives.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Also, one more quick comment as I have limited time.

I see that there is some discussion here about the knife as an impact tool. Thinking about using a knife as an impact tool is like thinking about using your pistol as a club. You might be facing less legal ramifications if you "pistol whip" someone rather then shoot them, but then again.....

There are many shades of gray here, unfortunately. But think of it along these lines, because once you have a knife out the force continuum goes up IMEDIATELY, possibly making a scuffle turn into a lethal force encounter INITIATED BY YOU WHO PUT THE KNIFE INTO PLAY. So, you have a few choices to make and things to think about here so that you can make the right decisions under stress that will protect you both physically and legally.

Good luck,

Paul Janulis

 

[budomuso]

I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

I know the guy that has this web site and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.

I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

Don, ask your teacher.

 

[dougp]

You should check out the AMOK system at www.knifefighting.com. They are huge into the blade. You may get some good info there.

Doug

 

[Cryozombie]

Doug, thanks for the link, but Don is asking SPECIFICALLY about Bujinkan methods:

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

 

[Nexus]

Every Monday at our dojo, we are asked what we'd like to work on the most. I'm always the first to shout, Knife defence! he he he...but we run through quite a few drills in which we are unarmed and the uke is armed with a tanto... here in Melbourne, we do get alot of Junkies approaching people with a knife of syringe demanding money...yes the wise thing would be to hand the cash over, but you never know what they might do once the money is in their hand. So we train against wild slashes, thrusts, lunges the works.

On the legalities, it's amazing how often my sensei says: "once you've disarmed your opponent, this could "accidentally" occur" and show a finishing technique

 

[Don Roley]

Don, ask your teacher.

I have. I suspect that I have been shown more about Japanese ways of using a knife than anyone in the Bujinkan overseas. Every time it is just the two of us and he asks what I want, I pull out the knives.

But living in Japan, I do not know about the way things are taught in North America and my teacher can't answer my questions.

I have learned a lot about the legalities and such from this thread and I would like to thank all the people who have answered in a costructive manner.

 

[Don Roley]

On the legalities, it's amazing how often my sensei says: "once you've disarmed your opponent, this could "accidentally" occur" and show a finishing technique

That is not wise.

If you disarm the other guy you do not need to kill him. And I find the idea of playing around at cold- blooded murder rather offensive.

Oh, and have you ever had someone drop out of training in your dojo? Guess what will happen if someone like that reads about a student of their old dojo killing someone in an accident after disarming a knife attack? Do you think that maybe he might just come forward, with other ex-students, to tell people how you were shown how to stage an "accident"?

Oh yeah, you are going to prison for a long time and your Bujinkan teacher will bring shame on the entire orginization. Hatsumi has never taught an "accidental" way of killing someone like that while I was around. I would suggest you tell your teacher he should talk to him about the matter next time he comes to Japan.

 

[Cryozombie]

Speaking of knife fighting... if you missed the very GRAPHIC photos of what a knife wound looks like posted by Bigsahdow in the general section, I suggest a look. Not because I am morbid and they are gross (tho, both of those things are true) but because I think Bigshadow did us a service posting them there as a reality check.

 

[Tengu6]

Does anybody have any info about a system that opens a spyderco quickly? It has something to do with zip ties I think. i thought there was a post about it in here but I cant fiind it.

I recently purchased a Spyderco Native and unlike ANY spyderco I have previosly owned, this thing is vertualy impossible to open one handed, I am wondering if it is defective. It openes with no resistance 2 handed, but one handed the blade will not budge.

Markk Bush

 

[Cruentus]

Use a two handed opening method.

We prefer a two handed opening method (or what I call the "old-timers opener") because it is far more reliable then most of the "industry" opening methods, kenetic opening methods, or pocket catches that are out there. On top of reliability, with practice and proper execution, a two handed opener can be as fast or faster then other kenetic opening methods.

The fact is, some of the Spyderco's don't open kenetically well. That is O.K., however, as they are still good knives. My favorite carry knife was the Spyderco Persian for awhile, which basically has to be open two handed (or one handed fumbling with the thumb hole, which I do not recommend).

Sometimes, the simple-stupidest method is the best, in my opinion...

Paul