Knife Attack Myths

[tallgeese]

A fast note about the 21 foot rule. It's true, studies have pretty much held up that it's a good indicator of how far a knifer can be and still get to you.

There are some drawbacks to the study. It's been done with a stationary officer who wasn't allowed to move back, to the side, put cover between him and the knife, ect. As mentioned above, run the drill with airsoft and you'll see that any of the aforementioned items will greatly ensure your ability of getting rounds off.

Second, the stances used assumed arms extended and front sights established like traditional line shooting. Ideal, granted. However, as mentioned, firing from unorthodox CQC distances will greatly enhance your survivability as well. Clearing the holser and firing from the hip is a great example. Against a closing knife weilder, who by now is right on you is not a bad idea. In fact, it's kind of a life saver.

Now, start combining and you'll see some good gun v. knife tactics being used.

I'm not saying that the distance isn't relavent. I'm just saying that there are grains of salt to be taken if one traines in a proper fashion.

 

[tallgeese]

As to the getting cut and expectations go, I think the mental acceptance of trauma is critical in any martial endeavor. Anything less sets you up mentally for failure when you do sustain damage.

Preparing for fighting on despite injury is built into the "know you'll get cut" philosophy. It ensures that your mind knows this and is ready to respond accordingly. It doesn't come as a surprise to the lizard brain and therefore, we can continue.

You can see this in unarmed training. One who never trains with contact in sparring suddenly gets hit and is completely off his game afterward. He wasn't expecting the trauma, he hadn't mentally accepted that a fight would hurt him. Now, the same guy, with the same skill set trains with some contact now and again. He gets hit and has already built it into his paradigm that it's part of a fight. He's not surprised, or put off, or staggering around in disbelief. He's recovering and countering. It prepares him.

Since we can't cut each other up with live blades on a regular basis, mental training in this area become key. It's also a good place to use marker weapons, hard model training knives that can be felt and the new Shock knife. This adds to the mental training aspect of being prepared to accept and move on thru injury.

 

[still learning]

Hello, One thing that is alway mention...a good knife fighter...will never show the knife until it is too late...

One method we use when facing a knife holder (knife seen)...is face our palms or inside arm facing us...best to get cut in the back of the arms..than the inside (blood veins are located) ..hands up in a protect position!

This is a defense knife prevention position we use many times in practice/and training....You want to experiment with this?

Aloha,

 

[K831]

Since we can't cut each other up with live blades on a regular basis...

Just once in awhile!

 

[sgtmac_46]

A fast note about the 21 foot rule. It's true, studies have pretty much held up that it's a good indicator of how far a knifer can be and still get to you.

There are some drawbacks to the study. It's been done with a stationary officer who wasn't allowed to move back, to the side, put cover between him and the knife, ect. As mentioned above, run the drill with airsoft and you'll see that any of the aforementioned items will greatly ensure your ability of getting rounds off.

Second, the stances used assumed arms extended and front sights established like traditional line shooting. Ideal, granted. However, as mentioned, firing from unorthodox CQC distances will greatly enhance your survivability as well. Clearing the holser and firing from the hip is a great example. Against a closing knife weilder, who by now is right on you is not a bad idea. In fact, it's kind of a life saver.

Now, start combining and you'll see some good gun v. knife tactics being used.

I'm not saying that the distance isn't relavent. I'm just saying that there are grains of salt to be taken if one traines in a proper fashion.

That's actually kind of the point of the study.......to dispel the 'I'd just pull my gun and shoot them' myth. Other counter-measures are required to deal with a knifer inside the 21 foot gap than simply unholstering and throwing lead down range.

Even more to the point is that the average knifer isn't going to give you 21 feet of warning in the first place. He's going to stab you from bad breath distance.......again, without other physical counter-measures to deflect the attack, a holstered gun is of little use at that moment.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hello, One thing that is alway mention...a good knife fighter...will never show the knife until it is too late...

One method we use when facing a knife holder (knife seen)...is face our palms or inside arm facing us...best to get cut in the back of the arms..than the inside (blood veins are located) ..hands up in a protect position!

This is a defense knife prevention position we use many times in practice/and training....You want to experiment with this?

Aloha,

Guro Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez made an excellent point in their series DLO knife series that the average knifing victim thinks he's actually getting punched initially, not knifed.

If we accept the fact that most of the time when someone goes to stab someone, the victim believes it's a punch getting thrown at them, what lessons can we derive and apply to our training?

 

[Deaf Smith]

If we accept the fact that most of the time when someone goes to stab someone, the victim believes it's a punch getting thrown at them, what lessons can we derive and apply to our training?

Well like Obama we can 'punch back twice as hard'.....

No, really I'm in a fun Krav Maga class as well as TKD now. The blocks they use are simple ones for roundhouse and strait punches. But since they don't like the 'shovel' punch (at least where I’m at) they have some difficulty blocking low punches that come straight in and a bit upward (kind of like getting knifed.)

But I do like their two point blocks that really are a form of stop block that nullifies the other guy punch. One hand reaches out to stop the roundhouse punch and the other pushes on the shoulder of the punching arm the other guy has. Stops even a real hard punch from a strong man.

That might be the answer. The two point block would completely stop a simple knife attack.

Deaf

 

[Inky]

One other factor i am surprised no one has mentioned. When deciding to draw a firearm you must also think of the surrounding area. I noticed in one of the first clips in that vid, the man seemed to be shooting wildly and i thought for sure he was going to shoot a few people other than his attacker.

That vid was definitely an eye opener. Especially the unsuspecting surprise close range attacks.

O.O;

 

[kior]

But I do like their two point blocks that really are a form of stop block that nullifies the other guy punch. One hand reaches out to stop the roundhouse punch and the other pushes on the shoulder of the punching arm the other guy has. Stops even a real hard punch from a strong man.

Precisely due to the problem of not seeing a knife until it's too late the basic defences in krav against punches and against knife attacks are very similar in most cases so that you can perform the defence without having to worry if you're being punched or stabbed and changing technique accordingly. There's lots of other drills you'd do as well - attackers performing various attacks with concealed knives then going to stab unexpectedly or the other day we looked at common 'silhouettes', when someone is reaching for a concealed knife in various common hiding places and how to react accordingly.

I'm not really sure which block you're describing but in krav the standard '360 defence' against a circular attack would involve blocking the attacking hand whilst simultaneously counter attacking with a punch, palm strike, eye gouge etc. The counter wouldn't be directed to the shoulder.