kicks that can kill an opponent

[chinto]

It is not the bleeding as such that will kill you ( though of course it can) it is the blood clot that can travel to the lungs or heart. Plus any bone that penetrates the skin is very dangerous.

I agree with LF, this discussion has taken a strange turn. I do regret mentioning the video now, I was there at ringside, I was there afterwards, I know what happened so don't appreciate people telling me I was wrong! And can I ask if 'brake' is an alternative spelling to 'break'?

I would suggest the OP could well have been a trolling attempt and they are laughing their socks off at the moment.

actualy in a femur brake shock is a huge killer. often the patent will go into shock .... and people shock kills. a femural artery bleed from the tib lacerating the artery will defenently couse shock and again.. depending on things you bleed out or shock kills you.

however, I think brakeing the femur is the least likely of effective things to acomplish in a combat situation. I AM NOT saying it can not be done, just that it is unlikely to be sucsessfull compared to most other choices you would have.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Usually, people go into shock from a femur fracture from the pain. There is also a high chance of infection from a compound fracture, and even more pain. Exposed bone is very painful.
I may be wrong, but I doubt that anyone here has ever broken someone else's femur with a kick. Maybe with a bat. It just doesn't happen very often. Most often when you see a femur fracture it's a "down & under" car accident injury, or a fall. It's not a common fight injury by any stretch of the imagination, since the femur needs to be stationary in order to deliver sufficient force to break it.
I've never heard of it happening & no one should consider it a common fight injury, despite what people say on the internet. Besides, I believe that the original spirt of the thread, however inappropriate for this venue, was a discussion of attacks that produce a timely fatality, not an attack that will produce complications resulting in a fatality from shock or loss of blood volume or infection or embolism or whatever.

 

[Doc_Jude]

A contradiction?

How so? Seriously...

 

[chinto]

Usually, people go into shock from a femur fracture from the pain. There is also a high chance of infection from a compound fracture, and even more pain. Exposed bone is very painful.
I may be wrong, but I doubt that anyone here has ever broken someone else's femur with a kick. Maybe with a bat. It just doesn't happen very often. Most often when you see a femur fracture it's a "down & under" car accident injury, or a fall. It's not a common fight injury by any stretch of the imagination, since the femur needs to be stationary in order to deliver sufficient force to break it.
I've never heard of it happening & no one should consider it a common fight injury, despite what people say on the internet. Besides, I believe that the original spirt of the thread, however inappropriate for this venue, was a discussion of attacks that produce a timely fatality, not an attack that will produce complications resulting in a fatality from shock or loss of blood volume or infection or embolism or whatever.

I would have to agree the pain is a major part of what couses the shock to set in. and I allso agree that a broken femur in a fight is a very rare injury as well. usualy a broken femur is the result of major trauma in a car accedent or some other violent impact such as a fall from 20 feet or more.. that kind of thing. the femur is the hardest bone to brake after all..

 

[Doc_Jude]

I would have to agree the pain is a major part of what couses the shock to set in. and I allso agree that a broken femur in a fight is a very rare injury as well. usualy a broken femur is the result of major trauma in a car accedent or some other violent impact such as a fall from 20 feet or more.. that kind of thing. the femur is the hardest bone to brake after all..

No it's not. The Temporal is hardest. Well, it's the hardest bone.

 

[tshadowchaser]

folks if you really want to kill someone with a kick, kick them in the groin hard enough and displace their testicles enough and shock sets in immediately and they die

 

[chinto]

No it's not. The Temporal is hardest. Well, it's the hardest bone.

ahh but it takes more force to brake the femur, at least that is what they tought and what I tended to see as an EMT back when I carried the little blue card.

 

[Last Fearner]

How many femurs have you broken?

Hmmm. I would ordinarily expect such a question from a non-martial artist or even a low ranking color belt, but then....?

Do you have any data on femur fractures (compound or otherwise) leading to fatalities? I'd love to see it.

Please do not use a quote from me, then ask for data about femur fractures that lead to fatalities. I am not the one who suggested this. I said that others brought up the allegation that a femur could lead to death, but my part in this conversation has simply been to help alleviate the doubt that a femur is so extremely difficult to break by those who are at a level of training where this is a snap (pun intended ).

Last Fearner/Chief Master...? or whatever

whatever?? hmmmm.

- an instructor merits no further respect that anyone else, by default; they need to earn that either by their skill at imparting knowledge or their own fight record and/or ability.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=850226#post850226

Please, read it a time or two. Perhaps you will understand.

"With consistency"?? Aside from your years of training and instructing how much fight experience do you have -

lol - - actually, quite a bit (army, LEO, Security Work, Night Club Bouncer, and many encounters in civilian life). I even chased a hotel thief through the streets of Seoul, Korea once, and physically subdued him. :ultracool

particularly full contact such as K1 or mma type experience?

Ok, lets keep the humor out of this serious debate. :lfao:

How many femurs or other bones have you broken when fighting a resisting and able opponent by way of kicks?

Ok..... here we go again. All right, here is my answer. Femurs: none. However, I have broken ribs with a spin side kick (most of my fights are intended to be non-damaging). I have had my own bones broken in accidents (ribs, collar, humerus, and a knee joint popped in wrestling), so I know what it feels like, and what level of force it took. I've seen others get bones broken and noted the type of force.

Now, I have never broken anyone's finger in a fight, but I have been in control with a hold that could do it, and I am fairly familiar (through those years of training) about how much force it takes to break a finger. In all of the street fights I have been in, I have never broken anyone's wrist, elbow, lower leg, or lower arm either, but I still teach students how to do it, what kind of force it would require, and tell them how easy it is to accomplish in a real fight. Some fights are a struggle, and you never know what is going to happen. Typically, I can not say, "In this fight, I am going to break the guys left ulna and radius, followed by his right femur." However, I have been in plenty of real-life, struggling, resisting fights, where I had the justification to break any of those bones, and had the opponent incapacitated, under control, or aligned for just such a break at the blink of an eye.

You see, what you really need to understand (apparent by your questions) is that most instructors, high ranking Black Belts, Masters and Grandmasters have never broken all of the bones that they teach how to break. We often teach how to gouge and injure eyes, but have never actually done it. We teach how to collapse the trachea with a Hansonnal Bakkat Chigi (single knife-hand outward strike), but have never collapsed a trachea for real. We teach hundreds, or even thousands of ways to kill an attacker, but have never killed anyone. Does that mean that we don't know what we are talking about, or that the techniques we are teaching our students are ineffective and worthless? Do you really believe that we are not capable of doing these things in an instant if we want to?

The fact is, the Martial Art knowledge has been created, tried and tested in real life and death combat by Masters long ago, and many time since. They teach that knowledge to their students, and some become Masters of it to the satisfaction of the original warriors. They pass on that knowledge to the next generation of disciples without ever having killed anyone or broken those bones themselves.

I can snap two or three #2 pencils at one time with my bare hands. Do you really think I can not break someone's finger with the same force? Do I have to break someone's finger for you to believe that I can do it, or are you just convinced that I am not fast enough or skilled enough to set up such a technique and make it work. Well, that is what I train for, teach, and have been able to do in real life without actually breaking the bones. The same goes for any other part of the body.

You say a person has to be stationary, or if the are able bodied and moving about in a fight, it would be too difficult. We are not amateurs at this. Most fights I have encountered have involved instances where the attacker is standing still, is within kicking range, is flat footed, knees at optimum angle for a femur break or a dislocated knee. If my opponent is too mobile, then a strike to an area that incapacitates them is the set up that I do before breaking a bone. I have the real-life experience, and years upon years of training to know how to manage a fight, and bring my opponent under control, injured, restrained, or incapacitated momentarily. I know that I can have the two or three seconds it takes to aim accurately at the femur (or anywhere else) and not miss, because I have been in those situations many times before. Just because I have not executed the finishing blow, does not mean that I could not have.

Of course the femur break is not very common in fight statistics, because it is more difficult than other options, so most would opt for the easier break or other technique. For those of us who could break hundreds of femurs during hundreds of fights, we seldom get into fights, and have the skills to end the fight without resorting to such a drastic blow. So forget the statistics, and the "have you done it." The real question is, how hard is it for someone who is trained to that level. Most novice would think that executing a flip, or a foot sweep, or a choke hold would be too difficult in a real fight with an able bodied resisting opponent. However, experts have little problems doing these things for real. How many necks have they snapped at the end of the choke hold? Perhaps none. Does this mean that they could not have easily snapped the neck? NO!

Anything is possible (almost) in a fight, that goes without saying but I have not met tha man yet - .....

I've already introduced myself, but we'll have to meet in person another time.

- who can consitently break a femur or bone of this type in competition or combat.

Someday, you might become just such a person. Then you'll have someone else questioning how you know you can do it.

and I have trained and fought some of the strongest and hardest fighters there are on a national and international level...

I hope you meant you have "trained with," or do you mean you are their teacher?

I can break a femur if you want to keep your leg in place when I do a downward stomp or axe-kick...

Ok, now here you say you can break the femur. You can do it, but at your years of experience, and your rank and skill, are you really at the top of your game - better than most Black Belts and Masters? If not, then don't you suppose that if you, at your level, can break a femur, then there are many more who can break it with ease, and know how to set up such a break in a real fight? Perhaps these are just things you have not learned yet, or encountered in your experience thus far.

Which makes me think, despite your years devoted to the arts, that you're talking theoretical - please disuade me...

Zero, I really don't intend to dissuade you. I'll explain the truth about training, and power, how easily bones can break when you have that much power and accuracy in your technique, but I leave it to you to figure out over time.

I don't mean any disrespect to you, but I have had many students over the past few decades ask the same questions, but usually with a more respectful tone. That's fine - - no big deal - - I don't really mind the questions as much as the assumptions on the part of those in early stages of training that they have it all figured out. I know people don't like to hear the "rank issue" brought up, however, please understand that I do get a little frustrated, after this many years, having white belts, and green belts, and red belts with blacks stripes, and beginner Black Belts (especially some who have never studied Taekwondo) telling a 6th Degree Black Belt what he can and can not do, or how difficult it would be for him to do it. We are not amateurs at this, and it's not like these things have not come up before. Each person just has to learn it for themselves over time and with the guidance of a qualified instructor.

Therefore, lacking a face-to-face introduction, and seminar to answer these questions thoroughly, I'm going to leave it at that.

With respects,
Last Whatever

No, don't take my word for it over the internet, but at the same time, don't tell me that I am being theoretical and don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Zero]

Last Fearner

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions and skepticism. First off just because of my rank in belt colour terms under goju ryu don't go writing me off on experience; I've only been studying karate for 3 years but have been fighting and competing for over 20 years in martial arts. Since switching to karate I've beaten enough black belts and dans of various styles in points and particularly full contact tournaments and touring clubs to know that it's not the colour of the belt but the guy who's waist its around that counts. I'm happy to fight anyone of any grade to prove the point (excluding 6ft8", 150kg Samoans - got the pulp beaten out of me that time so don't want a repeat of that!).

That aside, thanks again for explaining your background and more about bone breaks which does lend a lot of credibility to your previous comments (which did sound like a lot of hot gas), apologies for any spurious remarks! - however having also had bone breaks and broken others' bones when fighting and having full appreciation for the technique and power required to be generated I still doubt your claims on consistency regarding targeting out and breaking the femur in a fight or even in a defense situation. I also have military experience and combat training and have been both on the door and trained security personel (assistant, not course instructor though!) so I'm not coming at this from just a green belt position in goju.

If I am in your State I will if time allows look you up as I am, despite going off on rants now and then, open-minded and always open to learning.

 

[Sukerkin]

Can't rep you right now, LF so I'll just say that your last post above was excellently constructed and got some core points across very well.

 

[Tez3]

Can't rep you right now, LF so I'll just say that your last post above was excellently constructed and got some core points across very well.

I can and did, totally agree with your comments above.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Hmmm. I would ordinarily expect such a question from a non-martial artist or even a low ranking color belt, but then....?

... & I expect claims of being able to easily break femurs with kicks from non-practicing internet blowhards... but then...?

Ok..... here we go again. All right, here is my answer. Femurs: none.

As I expected.

However, I have broken ribs with a spin side kick (most of my fights are intended to be non-damaging). I have had my own bones broken in accidents (ribs, collar, humerus, and a knee joint popped in wrestling), so I know what it feels like, and what level of force it took.

Again, as I expected.

Now, I have never broken anyone's finger in a fight, but I have been in control with a hold that could do it, and I am fairly familiar (through those years of training) about how much force it takes to break a finger. In all of the street fights I have been in, I have never broken anyone's wrist, elbow, lower leg, or lower arm either, but I still teach students how to do it, what kind of force it would require, and tell them how easy it is to accomplish in a real fight. Some fights are a struggle, and you never know what is going to happen. Typically, I can not say, "In this fight, I am going to break the guys left ulna and radius, followed by his right femur." However, I have been in plenty of real-life, struggling, resisting fights, where I had the justification to break any of those bones, and had the opponent incapacitated, under control, or aligned for just such a break at the blink of an eye.

You see, what you really need to understand (apparent by your questions) is that most instructors, high ranking Black Belts, Masters and Grandmasters have never broken all of the bones that they teach how to break. We often teach how to gouge and injure eyes, but have never actually done it. We teach how to collapse the trachea with a Hansonnal Bakkat Chigi (single knife-hand outward strike), but have never collapsed a trachea for real. We teach hundreds, or even thousands of ways to kill an attacker, but have never killed anyone. Does that mean that we don't know what we are talking about, or that the techniques we are teaching our students are ineffective and worthless? Do you really believe that we are not capable of doing these things in an instant if we want to?

Anyone can break a finger. But how can you teach with so little experience, what will work to break bones? If you've never done it, then you can really only imagine what it will do.

Of course the femur break is not very common in fight statistics, because it is more difficult than other options, so most would opt for the easier break or other technique. For those of us who could break hundreds of femurs during hundreds of fights, we seldom get into fights, and have the skills to end the fight without resorting to such a drastic blow. So forget the statistics, and the "have you done it." The real question is, how hard is it for someone who is trained to that level.

What level would that be? The level of Pure Imagination?

If you've never done it, even on accident, then maybe you should just drop the unsubstantiated claims of how easily you could do it if you wanted to. It's like talking to Ashida Kim dim mak proponents.

 

[Sukerkin]

Doc, advice on the internet is always worth precisely the value of what you paid for it but I can only recommend that perhaps a re-examination of the way you're approaching your argument would produce better results.

You've been here a couple of months now and have posted quite a bit, so you know that strong moderation is the order of the day here at MT. Straying onto the grounds of what can very easily be construed as a personal attack will not serve your purpose. Particularly when the implications of some of what you are saying, such as the need to actually break bones before you can teach about bone breaking techniques, are of dubious legality.

A subject you know well and are passionate about is one with which it is difficult to calm and circumspect sometimes, I know but sometimes quiet speach reaches ears that forceful words do not.

 

[Tez3]

I broke a girl's toes once! Well actually she broke them on me, kicked me and I blocked. there, you see that makes me sooo experienced rofl!

Kicks that kill... that's the subject matter, it's a peurile, tasteless and rather pointless subject matter to be quite honest.
Shall we accept that kicks as with all other strikes, if done properly and to the right part of the anatomy will kill then ask ourselves why we are wasting time we will never get back asking a respected martial artist questions about whether he's ever actually broken bones? I know that if I stand on a railway line and a train comes it will run me over and I will be killed, I don't actually have to test that out to know it to be true. It's also so sensible that if someone tells me that I will believe them.

Can I suggest we take this discussion on a bit/close it down or no one bother posting again?

Perhaps we could instead discuss which kick we find the most effective for a. self defence b. sparring or c. if we were challenged to an MMA fight which kicks would be consider the best to use from a prone position! Ok not a perfect question lol but a start perhaps..........?


anyone with a problem about my posts please feel free to pm me.

 

[Last Fearner]

Last Fearner

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions and skepticism.

apologies for any spurious remarks!

Zero,

Thank you for your very respectful reply. I accept your apology, and likewise, I apologize to you if I came on a bit too strong from the rank issue (some nights are worse than others for me as far as what stress of the day gets released on the ol' keyboard!)

Like some others in this discussion, I might not agree with what you say, or even how you say it, but I will defend your right to say it! Likewise, you might not agree with what I say or how I say it, but I'm still going to say it.

I don't mean to dismiss your experience, knowledge and background at all. After all, I really don't know you. I agree that the belt around the waist does not absolutely determine knowledge and skill. There are those who have no belt, but are very skilled, and those who wear high ranking belts, but really don't know what they are talking about. I think we all have to get to know each other better to determine the reality of all that.

If I am in your State I will if time allows look you up as I am, despite going off on rants now and then, open-minded and always open to learning.

I would love for you, or anyone else here from MT to stop by and visit my Dojang. You would be most welcome, and we could openly discuss many of these things. Just call first so I can be sure my schedule is clear. :ultracool

Last Fearner

Thanks to others for their positive comments. I appreciate your support and respect your opinions as well.

 

[Last Fearner]

Hey, what's up Doc?

I want to start this post by saying that I think much of this discord comes from the impersonal medium of the internet that does not always convey points well, and I am not the best at expressing myself in quick posts. I understand your skepticism, but there are answers to your questions which might or might not satisfy your uncertainty, but the more you study the subject, the clearer it becomes.

... & I expect claims of being able to easily break femurs with kicks from non-practicing internet blowhards... but then...?

Doc, I'm trying to be truthful with you, and even helpful, but I think you went a bit to far with this comment. You have questions, and I have answers, but it is not easy to demonstrate the truth in words, and your abrasiveness makes it even more difficult.

As I expected.
Again, as I expected.

If this is all you can say to my reply, then you really didn't understand the entire response. Please read this post a little more carefully, and with an open mind. You really might learn something.

Anyone can break a finger.

Are you sure about that? Is that a fact that you have data to back up? What if someone could not break a finger? What if they came to me for lessons. I've never broken anyone's finger, in combat or otherwise. Could I teach them how? If it is only the level of difficulty that is confusing you (a finger is easy, but a femur is hard) then consider this. To juggle two or three balls might be considered easy for some (not me), but they would say that juggling 5 or 10 is hard, and next to impossible. However, the people who do it for a living, and do it daily don't find it so difficult. It is really a matter of skill, and what you are used to being able to do.

I know that does not fully answer your question yet, but it is a pertinent point, so take it in for a moment, then combine it with the rest of my response.

But how can you teach with so little experience, what will work to break bones?

First, I don't have "so little experience" as you put it. My experience covers everything up to and around the exact technique we are talking about. I will concede that if I, personally, have never broken a femur, then there is reason to doubt whether or not I can do it, however, that is not an absolute argument for the fact that I can not demonstrate my ability to do it.

Three questions arise:
1. Can it be done? (is the femur capable of being broken? has anyone ever kicked a femur and broken it?)

2. Can I personally do it? (short of actually doing it, and proving the fact, can a person test their abilities and demonstrate that they are capable?)

3. Would it be easy to do? (If attempted by a person who has been proven capable, would they find it easy or difficult to accomplish in a fight?)

To question one, I believe most will agree that femurs are capable of being broken, and I believe that there are fighters who have, intentionally, with accuracy and power, targeted a femur and broken them (when I have more time I will cite sources - or others can if they know of any).

To question two, it is not so much theory and speculation, as it is formula and common sense. I have never driven a car into a brick wall at 60 mph before, but I have driven a car at 60 mph, and I have hit other objects with a car before, so I am absolutely positive that I could do it if I wanted to, and I believe I know what the resulting damage would be (approximately).

To question three, any action or skill will seem difficult to those who are not so skilled at it. Having street-combat experience, being a fairly well versed instructor, and knowing how easily (from my own perspective) it is for me to tag an opponent where I want, set up a specific strike, and to turn a simple tap in sparring into a complete destruction, full power kick, I can honestly speak as to how "easy" something is for me to do.

For me, doing a running jump over a 5' high bar (like a track & field event), would be very difficult, and might seem impossible to me. However, to jump-spin hook kick someone 6' tall in the head is "easy" in my opinion. Others might consider kicking someone in the chest difficult, and say that I am full of hot air if I say jumping in the air, spinning backwards, and hook kicking a 6' tall guy in the head is easy. However, I'm 47 years old, I can do it, and I find it easy!

If you've never done it, then you can really only imagine what it will do.

If you've never done it, even on accident, then maybe you should just drop the unsubstantiated claims of how easily you could do it if you wanted to.

Ok, Doc, think about this. In my Army Basic Training at Fort Sill, OK., I earned the "expert" badge in Hand-grenades. This means that on an obstacle course, set up by Drill Sergeants who survived Vietnam, we crawled through the mud, and brush and woods, and threw dummy grenades at dummy targets (human figures, foxholes, and buildings with windows. I was good enough to hit the target consistently. We also went to a live grenade range and threw the ones that actually go boom!

Now if my training stopped there, then it would be theory as to what I could personally do in live combat. We know that grenades can be used in combat, and that the do kill when the get near a target, and that many soldiers have used them successfully. So then, it would be down to a question of, could Private Eisenhart do it in real combat. Fortunately for me, I never saw real combat, but lets assume for a moment that I did.

If I were to spend ten years in real combat, and instead of throwing live grenades, I threw smoke canisters near the enemy (the kind that mask your platoon's movements or signal what to do). Suppose that I was able to successfully function in combat, dodging enemy bullets without freezing up or getting killed. If I could consistently and accurately place smoke canisters within inches of the enemy without every blowing anyone up, or killing them, then I would be able to deduce that, if I had chosen to throw a live grenade instead, the enemy would be dead.

How can I logically draw this conclusion. Well, the first part has been established. Hand-grenades have been proven to kill people when they go off, and other soldiers have used them successfully. All I have to do is demonstrate my ability to place the grenade, or a similar object, within the kill zone under combat circumstances, and it is logical that I would be successful at killing enemies with grenades. Then I could say that it would be "easy" for me to do, even though I had never actually killed anyone with a grenade.

If a person holds a grenade in their hands, pulls the pin and releases the lever, I know what damage that grenade will do to their body. I don't ever have to have put a grenade in someone's hands myself, and kill them to know that I could do it. Statistics already exist for that. If I can demonstrate my ability to throw a grenade accurately at a target, then 1 + 1 = 2.

Medical research indicates about how much pressure it takes for various bones to break. If the pressure for breaking a femur (through skin, muscle and everything) is x, and a person shows they can kick with a power of x, then they can likely break a femur, but they might consider it difficult to do. If I can demonstrate that I can break boards with the power of 2x, then breaking a femur might be considered relatively easy to me, where it might seem difficult to you.

The only issue left is how easy and consistently it could be done in a real fight, and there is no way to prove that except to do it. However, with a few, one-on-one sessions with me, I think I could convince you that it is not as difficult as you think.

Anyhow, good luck with your future training, Doc, and I'll see you in the funny papers! :ultracool

Chief Master Darwin J. Eisenhart