Several of my students have trained Muay Thai in Germany and they say the training is the same as in the UK, Muay Thai kick boxing with elbows, sweeps, clinches etc. the instructors are often Thai as well which is something that attracted them in the first place.
Kickboxing vs Taekwondo
- Thread starter JohnnyEnglish
- Start date
Zero
Master Black Belt
Hi Texan, sorry to jump in on this when the thread has progressed a bit but I just wanted to make a point and pull you up on a comment. Yes, the late great Andy Hug did leave his guard down in this fight (and of course his kyokoshin tournaments) but that was solely because of the particular rules for this fight. His kyokoshin in itself was not the reason for him "constantly leaving his face open" and keeping his guard low. He quickly transitioned into K1 where there are of course face punches and quickly became a K1 legend amongst legends...he won the K1 Grand Prix after all and has legendary status in K1 also.
Zero
Master Black Belt
Thanks, I enjoyed watching that fight and hadn't viewed it for a while. The MT fighter equiped himself well, and I know he was not used to the rules, but all in all I viewed Andy as the superior fighter, at least in that confrontation.
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Zero
Master Black Belt
I know you were, my man, that was clear! : ) I love him too and his too early departure was a massive blow; he was and is an inspiration and I have worked hard on many techniques including the axe-kick due to his example.
Peace and respect!
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
The point was... MT fighter punches face, even though his brain says no punch face, his body has been trained "punch face"
OTOH, My dear Hug, didn't train to punch face, and other then accidentally doing so, He didn't.
However, he seemed irritated at being hit in the face, repeatedly.
He seems to keep guard at mid-body which seems reasonable against a leg fighter.
He isn't the only karateka who seems to get hit in the face by MT boxers or other stylists.
Pro western boxers keep the head / face well guarded to ward off bell ringing and KOs.
"elbows in and down" they say.
Of course too many body blows will end you too.
The short of it is that you fight the way you train.
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Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put
“ You can only fight the way you practice” -Miyamoto Musashi
Zero
Master Black Belt
Yes agreed but an old dog can actually learn new tricks and many karateka have gone on to own K1 and take numerous belts in UFC. This shows you can definitely transition - as you say, you simply need to alter your specific training or modify the techniques/tools you have in your arsenal. I have fought in kyokoshin, open, kickboxing and muay thai tournaments. That said my goju club always trained and spars with punches to head.
Zero
Master Black Belt
I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here. But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.
Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets. And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai". Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work. Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament. There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.
What I am trying to say is that in some places/countries people in MA will instinctively know what "Kickboxing" is and what to expect when going to a club or entering a tournament (although always check the rules!) and they will see Muay Thai as different.
To be honest I would be surprised if that is not the case in most places and perhaps people are being a bit semantic...or maybe you (and others) are genuinely saying that if a mate where you live said "I'm off to the kickboxing club tonight", you would be confused or not sure if they meant Muay Thai or savate or something else?
Sure you could say, "hey is that a PKA kickboxing club or something else?" But if a guy is doing Muay Thai he's going to say, "hey, I'm off to Muay Thai tonight (because "kickboxers" are too scaredy-cat to use elbows)"
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OP
OP
JohnnyEnglish
Green Belt
I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here. But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.
Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets. And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai". Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work. Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament. There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.
What I am trying to say is that in some places/countries people in MA will instinctively know what "Kickboxing" is and what to expect when going to a club or entering a tournament (although always check the rules!) and they will see Muay Thai as different.
To be honest I would be surprised if that is not the case in most places and perhaps people are being a bit semantic...or maybe you (and others) are genuinely saying that if a mate where you live said "I'm off to the kickboxing club tonight", you would be confused or not sure if they meant Muay Thai or savate or something else?
Sure you could say, "hey is that a PKA kickboxing club or something else?" But if a guy is doing Muay Thai he's going to say, "hey, I'm off to Muay Thai tonight (because "kickboxers" are too scaredy-cat to use elbows)"
Wow, actually the first person that understands what I am repatedly saying over and over again.
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
the OP started with a line of questioning Kickboxing vs Taekwondo for the purposes of self defense.
Do we really need to know all the various forms of KB to help the OP determine what best meets his proclaimed needs?
Whether it be Kickboxing with elbows or Kickboxing without elbows. They are both competitive fighting sports.
When we get to the point of discussing merits of one versus the other... its about as meaningful as arguing McDonald's Hamburgers, vs Wendy's Hamburgers vs BurgerKing's Hamburgers vs Some Local outfit.
If all this is, for him, talk with no doing and no training... it is as meaningful as talking about who has the best burgers when you have no money to buy any.
On this thread, I vote for the OP to consider "Less Talking, More Kicking" instead of sitting around deliberating and pontificating.
Do we really need to know all the various forms of KB to help the OP determine what best meets his proclaimed needs?
Whether it be Kickboxing with elbows or Kickboxing without elbows. They are both competitive fighting sports.
When we get to the point of discussing merits of one versus the other... its about as meaningful as arguing McDonald's Hamburgers, vs Wendy's Hamburgers vs BurgerKing's Hamburgers vs Some Local outfit.
If all this is, for him, talk with no doing and no training... it is as meaningful as talking about who has the best burgers when you have no money to buy any.
On this thread, I vote for the OP to consider "Less Talking, More Kicking" instead of sitting around deliberating and pontificating.
Zero
Master Black Belt
I am glad someone brought informed reason back into this thread again.
I am only surprised you forgot the qualification that bjj is of course better the Muay Thai.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Muay Thai is actually a lovely compliment to Bjj.
In terms of MT vs TKD, I simply have to give the edge to MT. MT schools tend to churn out better fighters than TKD schools do. Additionally, MT teaches you how to use more of your body as a weapon.
Zero
Master Black Belt
Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style? Can you please illuminate?
If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.
Why not just be a rounded fighter: punch, kick, takedown/shoot, submit?
Zero
Master Black Belt
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
In general, I would agree with you.
However... that depends on what is being taught under the name TKD. There is several differant animals running around with the TKD name on it.
What was taught to US Airforce Policemen, and US Army Soldiers, and their Korean counterparts that was tested in the Korean war, and Vietnam war under the names Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo is a different critter, than what Scoccermom Susie Homemaker's 15 year old boy takes at the mall on Wednesdays and Saturdays to win regional trophies in point tournaments.
Here is an example of Mall TKD, an instructor of TKD with 9 years experience vs a 1 year grappler of experience in BJJ.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Because the MT clinching system works great with the Bjj takedown system. Boxing's clinch is pretty good too, but MT incorporates elbows, knees, and takedowns from their clinch.
