Kickboxing vs Taekwondo
- Thread starter JohnnyEnglish
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JohnnyEnglish
Green Belt
I know that there are different SORTS, also called Rules Kickboxing fights are followed by. Our Kickboxing club tought us K1 and sometimes not. I've never competed in Kickboxing, so I don't know much about the match-rules.
FACT: Kickboxing is Kickboxing ! Kickboxing is not muay-thai, Kickboxing is not savate, Kickboxing is not taekwondo, Kickboxing is Kickboxing. And yes, there are different rules, same as there is ITF and WTF Taekwondo. Still, both is Taekwondo.
Danny T
Senior Master
If you would please define Self-Defense and describe the situation you are questioning. (there is much more to self defense than punching and kicking)
TKD can certainly be used in some self-defense situations as well as Kickboxing can be but not necessarily all. It is possible that the attributes developed may afford one an advantage in some situations but not in others.
Most martial art training develops very little as to self defense other than fighting situations. Kickboxing is a 'sport' derived aspect of martial art used in competitions and here again, the skills developed can be of help in a physical fight back situations.
OP
OP
JohnnyEnglish
Green Belt
You walk down the street and a group of 3 people is pushing you around and is invading your personal space and so on forceing you in to a fight.
Danny T
Senior Master
So self defense is only when you are forced to fight? Are they only using their physical abilities and bodies? Is it just some scary tactics oe do you feel in fear of great bodily injury? Are weapons involved, if so what type? Blunt object, edged, projectile, flexible? Can you leave the situation, can't leave, or are you unwilling to leave? Can the situation be de-escalated or have you attempted to do so? Were you aware of the situation prior to you being involved or has it simple happened? (where are you and why are you there?)
What you describe is a possible fight back situation which can certainly be a form of self defense but there is much more to self-defense than just a fight back situation.
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not really,
WAKO has a Muay Thai division I believe.
Even then, wako is the organization that hosts events not the type of kickboxing itself
Danny T
Senior Master
Kickboxing..., isn't this a form of mixed martial arts for striking competition? Didn't kickboxing, the term, come Osamu Noguchi who combined muay thai and karate back in the late 50's? Since then kickboxing has grown to have several different rule sets depending upon the promotion.
Dutch style Muay Thai is considered kickboxing allowing low leg kicks where early ISKA formats didn't allow them. Dutch style doesn't allow working out of clinch where in Muay Thai clinch is a major part of the game. K-1 and Glory are all kickboxing promotions that today also claim to be Muay Thai.
Dutch style Muay Thai is considered kickboxing allowing low leg kicks where early ISKA formats didn't allow them. Dutch style doesn't allow working out of clinch where in Muay Thai clinch is a major part of the game. K-1 and Glory are all kickboxing promotions that today also claim to be Muay Thai.
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
JohnnyEnglish, In answer to your question...
"My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE?"
let me ask you some questions.
1. have you been to the Dojang that teaches ITF TaeKwonDo that you seem interested in?
2. have you watched the students sparring, and training for tournaments?
3. If Yes, then when you watched the ITF opponents sparring, do they drop their arms to the side, and almost never punch?
Yes/no
If yes, then they are influenced by the "Kicks give more points then punches" rules of Olympic type TKD.
4. Does training for long periods of time like this have negative consequences?
4b. If you do not train for punching, counterpunching and blocking punches as a TKD practitioner you can develop habits that are not good.
For an example, I will post this:
I will draw your attention to two things in the video. The Karateka pummels with lots of chest punches because this is part of Kumite. Also, the TKD guy doesn't train for knee kicks, and isn't seen using them. What knee kicks that landed on the Karateka, were incomplete full kicks. However, the Karateka definitely uses knee kicks right off the bat.
Now, if the ITF TKD school has people sparring with punches, and kicks, and blocking/counter-punching and counter-kicking, then it would be almost purely what flavor of fighting do you WANT.
5. Now visit your Kickboxing Gym, do they spar with punches, and counter punches?
yes/no
Then the following is true, only by a School/Gym vs School/Gym basis:
If all else is equal, but the punching issue is examined:
If questions 3, and 4 are YES while 5 is YES then ITF TKD < KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are NO while 5 is NO then ITF TKD > KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are NO while 5 is YES then ITF TKD = KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are YES while 5 is NO then ITF TKD = KB.
The fact is you can only fight in self-defense the way you train for a fight.
"My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE?"
let me ask you some questions.
1. have you been to the Dojang that teaches ITF TaeKwonDo that you seem interested in?
2. have you watched the students sparring, and training for tournaments?
3. If Yes, then when you watched the ITF opponents sparring, do they drop their arms to the side, and almost never punch?
Yes/no
If yes, then they are influenced by the "Kicks give more points then punches" rules of Olympic type TKD.
4. Does training for long periods of time like this have negative consequences?
4b. If you do not train for punching, counterpunching and blocking punches as a TKD practitioner you can develop habits that are not good.
For an example, I will post this:
I will draw your attention to two things in the video. The Karateka pummels with lots of chest punches because this is part of Kumite. Also, the TKD guy doesn't train for knee kicks, and isn't seen using them. What knee kicks that landed on the Karateka, were incomplete full kicks. However, the Karateka definitely uses knee kicks right off the bat.
Now, if the ITF TKD school has people sparring with punches, and kicks, and blocking/counter-punching and counter-kicking, then it would be almost purely what flavor of fighting do you WANT.
5. Now visit your Kickboxing Gym, do they spar with punches, and counter punches?
yes/no
Then the following is true, only by a School/Gym vs School/Gym basis:
If all else is equal, but the punching issue is examined:
If questions 3, and 4 are YES while 5 is YES then ITF TKD < KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are NO while 5 is NO then ITF TKD > KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are NO while 5 is YES then ITF TKD = KB.
If questions 3, and 4 are YES while 5 is NO then ITF TKD = KB.
The fact is you can only fight in self-defense the way you train for a fight.
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OP
OP
JohnnyEnglish
Green Belt
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. They punch a lot and they have the cover up like a boxer or kickboxer. Nobody there drops his arms, too risky to get knocked out.
4. In my " dojang " we train kicks,punches, do sparring but also learn how to use our elbow,knee, certain grips and throws for self-defense, and we also learn how to use a proper cover, so the face and rips are always or mostly covered.
5. My kickboxing gym spars until someone is knocked out, usually. I don't really what EXACTLY you mean by counter punches, since sparring as I know it, always involves punches and counters, sure. It's sparring mate
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. They punch a lot and they have the cover up like a boxer or kickboxer. Nobody there drops his arms, too risky to get knocked out.
4. In my " dojang " we train kicks,punches, do sparring but also learn how to use our elbow,knee, certain grips and throws for self-defense, and we also learn how to use a proper cover, so the face and rips are always or mostly covered.
5. My kickboxing gym spars until someone is knocked out, usually. I don't really what EXACTLY you mean by counter punches, since sparring as I know it, always involves punches and counters, sure. It's sparring mate
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.
Kyokushin Karate rules fighting goes bare knuckle (no gloves whatsoever) because punching is forbidden to the face. Of course, the Muay Thai guy was disadvantaged because he's not used to those rules (notice how he repeatedly punches Andy Hug in the face, it's reflex).
But Andy is used to both Kyokushin and Muay Thai rules because he was also a three times world champion under Muay Thai rules, however, He constantly leaves his face open, because of his years of training in Kyokushin.
here is a link to the fight.
Don't forget Lethwei... and a case could be made that Sanshou is a form of kickboxing...
As others have said -- the answer is none of them. And all of them. If you want to train for self defense, you need to train for self defense, not a fight in the ring. There are major differences, and those have to be reflected in how you train. Either approach can give you the technical skills to apply in a self defense setting. (Of course, you also need to look beyond physical if you're talking self defense... but that's a whole 'nother thread. Actually, several...)
WTF is not a "style" of Taekwondo. It is a sports organization promoting competitions under a specific ruleset, and it doesn't even have a set curriculum nor is it issuing dan degrees. The style of taekwondo featuring pull over doboks with black trim on the collar for black belts, is Kukki Taekwondo, and kukkiwon-alligned schools are extremely free to decide what and how to teach, as long as they teach the standard forms. The result of this, is that Kukkiwon aligned groups range from schools just focusing on WTF competition, to schools not focusing on it at all, and anything in between, including schools which incorporate regular hard sparring with strikes to the head using boxing gloves.
You cannot use a couple videos of a few Kukki-TKD practitioners with a completely unknown background to make sweeping generalizatios of Kukkiwon-alligned schools, in a false WTF vs ITF dichotomy. A few such videos do not constitute a representative sample of practitioners from all the different Kukkiwon-schools, and won't give you any kind of well founded general conclusion on how Kukkiwon aligned schools might fare in self defense or mixed-style competition, as they do not take into consideration the huge diversity in training methods and focus among Kukkiwon-alligned TKD groups and schools. At best, you get an impression of how practitioners without experience outside of sparring within the WTF-competition bubble fares in such situations, which isn't very surprising.
You cannot use a couple videos of a few Kukki-TKD practitioners with a completely unknown background to make sweeping generalizatios of Kukkiwon-alligned schools, in a false WTF vs ITF dichotomy. A few such videos do not constitute a representative sample of practitioners from all the different Kukkiwon-schools, and won't give you any kind of well founded general conclusion on how Kukkiwon aligned schools might fare in self defense or mixed-style competition, as they do not take into consideration the huge diversity in training methods and focus among Kukkiwon-alligned TKD groups and schools. At best, you get an impression of how practitioners without experience outside of sparring within the WTF-competition bubble fares in such situations, which isn't very surprising.
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Who is making a sweeping itf vs wtf dichotomy? I never even mentioned curriculum. I simply said do they drop their hand's while sparring... because they "likely" are "kicks are more points then punches" mentality in that dojang
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Welcome to the human race brother.
I make millions of mistakes. And lots of corrections.
