Ki " Inner Engergy "?

[Shogun]

also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In kime, ki, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same ki that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however. But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...


kime is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique. <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.

Yes. The Japanese language is made up of syllables. each set of two or three letters (usually) represents a character. Also, vowels make up characters.

So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?" That's terribly arrogant, isn't it? Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history?

This is a problem that I have soapboxed about on MT before... Monolingual Anglophones attempting to make use of foreign language terms without possessing a real understanding of a) the word's real meaning, b) the cultural context of the word, or c) the relevance the word has to the use the aforementioned Anglophone is attempting to assign it.

You misunderstood me. and the ignorant part is assuming I am monolingual. I speak some japanese, brazillian portuguese, and Koyukon. The Japanese word for inertia is Daryoku. it means spur of the moment/inertia. What I meant by Ki and inertia being one in the same, without being the same is that while inertia and Ki are different, they are words that work on two separate levels while having a common bond. Inertia, as muaythaifreak mentioned, is accepted everwhere due to its scientific nature. Ki is an Asian term, that is usually only accepted in asia, and in certain people in the west, due to its more religious nature. in truth, they really shouldnt be used in the same context, becasue although, IMO, they are related, they are NOT the same (as I posted) because of the separation of science and religion. Ki is life force. but it can be USED as inertia. limiting Ki's potential to simply internal energy is also ignorant. I may not know much about inertia, but I know about Ki. the question is, how can you claim to know about something while refusing its existence?


cheers,
Kyle Elliott

 

[Matt Stone]

I also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In kime, ki, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same ki that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however. But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...


kime is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique. <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.

Yep, you're wrong...

The ki you reference when talking about energy isn't written with hiragana nor katakana, but with kanji. It is different from the ki in kime.

Inertia, as muaythaifreak mentioned, is accepted everwhere due to its scientific nature. Ki is an Asian term, that is usually only accepted in asia, and in certain people in the west, due to its more religious nature.

Have you ever lived in Asia, specifically Japan (since we are talking about a Japanese word/concept)?

"Inertia" isn't used in Japan, except among English speakers. So your comment that it is "accepted everywhere" is erroneous at very best. Your monolingualism fails to impress when you make comments like this...

As to the word's more "religious" nature, you couldn't be further from the truth (but if you speak as much Japanese as you allege, then you should know that already, right?). Most folks have no idea whatsoever what the word means, much less in relation to martial arts practice (which is seen by many Japanese as an anachronistic eccentricity).

in truth, they really shouldnt be used in the same context, becasue although, IMO, they are related, they are NOT the same (as I posted) because of the separation of science and religion.

Please show me where the term "ki" is found in widespread use as a religious term.

Ki is life force. but it can be USED as inertia.

No. Life force is life force. Inertia is inertia. Your comment is a logical fallacy. "Rose is rose, but can be used as daisy." Incorrect from the get go.

limiting Ki's potential to simply internal energy is also ignorant. I may not know much about inertia, but I know about Ki.

Apparently not, but you can keep telling yourself you do.

the question is, how can you claim to know about something while refusing its existence?

When did I refuse its existence? Please quote where I did that...

 

[Shogun]

When did I refuse its existence? Please quote where I did that...

You did'nt, others did. I didnt mean YOU.

Please show me where the term "ki" is found in widespread use as a religious term.

I am not sure, but I think I put religious in quotes. thats because, as such, it is LIKE religion, in that one can choose not to accept it because there is no hard evidence. But on the subject of religous terms, My Sensei, a SHINTO PRIEST, uses it often.

"Inertia" isn't used in Japan, except among English speakers

So what your saying, is that no Japanese use Inertia as a word (Daryoku) ? Most dont, but you said its NOT USED......?

what about when I said its not used in Japan, andyou said:

So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?" That's terribly arrogant, isn't it? Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history?

hhhhhmmmmmm..............

No. Life force is life force. Inertia is inertia. Your comment is a logical fallacy. "Rose is rose, but can be used as daisy." Incorrect from the get go.

not quite. to understand Ki, one must accept it is the energy that is flowing thru their body. Inertia requires energy, which can be gerated from the body. one should not think these as two separate things. It is more like a flash light and a battery. the flashlight receives power from the battery, but they are diiferent things.

Apparently not, but you can keep telling yourself you do.

Ok. thanks for the permission. I wasnt going to if you said I couldnt.

monolingualism

Even if you refuse to accept I speak a little Japanese, I still know I can (and a little Brasil portuguese, and some Koyukon)

cheers,
Kyle Elliott

 

[DeLamar.J]

Just what exactly is “energy”? Let's consider the word energy in terms of how it's used in the martial arts. There are two camps: the mystical and the physical.

It should come as no surprise that there are proclaimed ‘masters’ of the martial arts who claim to channel energy into different parts of their bodies, to use it at different times for different purposes. That sounds very impressive and magical, and sets them on a much higher level than their students. Of course, they never define this energy, except by calling it by the nebulous and equally vague phrase: “life force”. But what is that? They tell us that science has yet to understand this force. Yet in this day and age when we have mapped the human genome, unraveled the mystery of DNA, can clone mammals, and have plotted out all the various parts of the brain and understand their functions, it seems like a weak argument to say that scientists cannot find this powerful and all-pervasive life force— a force that uneducated peasants have known about for thousands of years. Ki (or chi) has all the appearance of folklore and legend.

I shall tell you exactly what energy is. Energy is physical force... pressure... generated by muscular exertion or the momentum of movement— both mechanical actions. No martial art technique happens without movement of some kind. Take away the movement, and you take away the technique. Effective energy is generated by good body mechanics, understanding of timing and footwork, and good muscle control.

Knowing now what energy is, I have a question for you to ponder. Can energy be stored?

If we think of energy like electricity, and the body like a battery... then no, energy cannot be stored. It can’t be built up in your stomach, and then shot out through your arm into your enemy, knocking him on the ground. Such is the stuff of comic book heroes and bad martial arts movies. And yet there are martial arts that would have you believe this is what they can do. In the twenty years I've been involved in martial arts, I have never witnessed or felt anything that leads me to believe that there is any truth behind that point of view.

There are those who promote the idea that chi or ki can be used to stop or absorb strikes. But these are tricks, similar to those used by circus side show performers, that anyone can learn.

But if we think of energy as force, generated through physical actions, this gives us another, more realistic concept. Like a spring in a mouse trap, energy can be stored— or at least built up. When you pull back the spring on a mouse trap, and set the lever, you are building up and storing potential energy, which is released later when a mouse tries to eat the cheese. The trap is tripped, and the spring releases the energy that it had been storing, breaking the mouse’s neck.

The body’s structure can be used this way, and that is an area of serious advanced study. The spine can be twisted, the knees bent, the weight shifted, all in ways that build up energy that is not used in that moment, but used in the next. This knowledge is vital, and should be studied after the basics are understood.

Most of all, what is important is clarity of thought in these kinds of matters. If you don’t clearly understand these ideas, or if you have been deceived by someone who sounds very convincing and is trying to sell you on the idea of magic powers, then it is much harder to master these concepts.

 

[Scout_379]

why are there so many of this thread?

my other reply:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=256173#post256173

 

[bignick]

First off...throwing someone with a "flick of the wrist" is entirely possible...but sometimes we misinterpret what is going on...it sounds a lot like your instructor recieved the punch and applied kote gaeshi to the attacker...and the attacker took an airfall...the thing people sometimes forget is that ukemi(falling) is the escape from the technique...if you did that same technique on someone who didn't know how to fall you'd get a different result...most likely you'd end up breaking their wrist and they'd stumble to the ground...maybe not as graceful or eye-catching....but a lot more effective...

I think that there are two ways to think about "ki"...the first...as the mystical life force/energy that is present in all of us and can be used and channeled to accomplish amazing feats...

the second...very simply, ki can mean the most efficient way of doing things..."maximum efficiency, minimum effort" to use some judo philosophy...

i tend to subscribe to the latter...my judo/jujitsu instructor has a master's in education and teaches anatomy and physiology...and i've seen him do some amazing things with "ki"...escaping from kote gaeshi by simply straightening his arm...i've made a spearhand and placed it on his throat and he's pushed me across the dojo...mystical feats?...or just a great understanding of the human body and how it works and how to most efficiently use it....

doesn't really matter what you believe...the effect is the same...however you want to get there is up to you...

 

[TomakaStud]

I am study Hwarangdo, a Korean Martial Art, and i have had experiences with Ki as well as whitnessed Ki demonstrations. By my own testimony it is very real and takes many years of practice to master. Ki can do 4 things:

1. Make you Faster
2. Make you Lighter
3. Make your body Hard
4. Make you Stronger
(sounds like a good engergy drink commercial!)

However for a true demonstration (which is something i think people here are lacking and why they cannot believe) visit: http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm

I recomend Ki Power demonstration in 60's, which didn't have editing, That's Incredible, and Unknown Powers.

 

[muaythaifreak]

I don't see what's so proof positive about those clips. People do the same stuff on Ripley's believe it or not all the time that don't even study martial arts. They are talented individuals, nothing more. I didn't see anyone breaking boards with their minds.

You know what else can have those four effects? Exercise, practice, and diet.

 

[bignick]

yes...i agree...i saw nothing mystical in these videos either...you see these kind of feats performed by strongmen and other types all the time...not that their not impressive(i couldn't do most of them...) but that doesn't mean that they're feats of Ki energy

 

[LIONHEART]

Hey all firstly just as an aside I dont recall anybody saying ki allowed you to break boards, people, buldings or mountains etc any other ludacris statement without even touching a person. we need to look at ki for what it is bioelectrical energy focused through a point, yes its physical not spiritual and yes it can be generated and increased here are some examples of what I mean in differen MA's where I dont need scientific proof to believe in it because I am the on it was done to or was the one doing it,

As a TKD, ex MT, Kung Fu and Capoeira practitioner, my sifu asked as part of a tai chi workshop if I would deliver him a side peircing/side thrust whichever you wanna call it full strength to his solar plexus, so I proceded to kick him which in response I got Ï said kick me so dont play around and kick me "so I followed through full ball skipping into it and all full power kicked him and bounced swiftly off and to the floor...he didnt flinch and continued speaking to the room throughout the whole thing. to see how this works, kick a wall see result now picture sifu as wall said result was the same, now I'm sorry but if this is a mere "trick"any one can just learn, please tell me where...

the other night in a TKD class we were doing energy awareness training where you build your energy close your eyes and your partner hits you, you block these hits by feeling displacement in the energy around you, I bloked 5 out of 6, again how without a feel of electric "ïnner energy"?

Try meditating or doing tai chi the pins and needles feeling in your hands when they go REALLY hot and when you center your energy into a ball in your hands and cannot close them (YES this has happened to me personally sceptics) and then say ki energy of some form does not exist, and YES I agree its body mechanics that creates stores and charges this energy and nothing meta physical.
Just my opinion Ki does exist I just feel peoples perception of it is a bit off just my opinion.

Yours in MA LIONHEART

 

[An Eternal Student]

This is always a messy topic.I train in a couple of different styles and Ive seen and talked to people with both opinions on this.In my case I use Ki.I dont know if it can affect something I have no physical contact with, but I wouldnt be suprised.I just use it when Im fighting and training, and it gets far greater results than using the pyshical movement alone.I guess its up to you to work out your own ideas on it.

Oh and Scout_379, Im young myself so I know what its like.You argued fairly well, and you have some intersting ideas.But when your dealing with sceptics, theyres nothing you can do to change their minds.
I wouldnt mind chatting to you about this stuff, some more.

 

[Adept]

Just my opinion Ki does exist I just feel peoples perception of it is a bit off just my opinion.

Yours in MA LIONHEART

Anecdotal evidence is extremely weak. If Ki can be verified through independant and unbiased scientific means then I may grant it some credit. Until then, no dice.