Ki " Inner Engergy "?

[hedgehogey]

Many things are possible with biofeedback, stringent hardening of the body and other things that monks do.

What is NOT possible is hitting someone without touching them.There is no scientific evidence for such a thing.

Of course, if you disagree there's a million dollars you can get from the randi challenge.

 

[muaythaifreak]

could you please cite your sources for these "scientific facts"? Have you ever heard of the "polar bears"? These people regularly swim in sub zero waters and temperatures. And amazingly enough, none of them to my knowledge, certainly not all of them practice "ki". It's a matter of acclimatization, not mysticism.

 

[muaythaifreak]

Come on u guys! Beleive me! I've seen a man do it! A very advanced Karate/Aikido Sensei, dodged the punch, pushed the puncher's hand (flick of wrist!), and sent him at least 2 meters.

This has to do with Inertia and the redirection of energy.

 

[muaythaifreak]

(eg. video of boards breaking b4 actual contact, or old men single handedly disposing of multiple attackers).

Anything can be made to happen through the wonders of video and special effects.
How many attackers have we seen Jackie Chan dispatch at once? ON VIDEO.
I suppose you think he could do it in real life?

 

[Scout_379]

You hate the idea of ki don't u? In another thread i mention the difference between hard and soft arts. Muay thai happens to be a hard art, and ki is never mentioned. Most martial arts practiced in North America and Europe do likewise. I am sure your training partners would agree that there is no such thing as ki, that it's just some mystical concept that people have been practicing for well over 1000 yrs.
But in my style and others it is mentioned frequently, and with emphasis, we do not beleive that it there is anything mystical about it. Call it inertia or w/e u want, but it works. Many of my styles highest ranking Sensei's hold PhD's in the medical feilds, and in engineering. Lets say that they kno their bulls***, but still kno that ki exists.

As for my evidence: I'm no idiot, I know about the effects possible in the editing room. I've seen the board break - I am aware that it could have been faked.
The old men taking down youthful gangmembers - from newspapers and one TV report, i've forgotten the papers but i loved the stories.
Monk polar bears? - Ripleys beleive it or not - one of the books relating to human feats. Yes acclimatization is possible, but not to the point where a person could endure extended periods without suffering the effects. Otherwise the eskimos would be havin a much nicer time.
The man i saw throw a senior student 2 meters by the wrist flick DOES practice ki, inertia was mostly responsible, but it was by using ki that he found the other mans weakness. In the practice of Tai-chi push hands this is even more evident. Although Tai-chi pratitioners are more concerned with creating balace and harmony in their personal chi.


Yes I beleive that Jackie Chan could take on several attackers at once. He is a VERY skilled martial artist. I've seen some of his non-english movies. And S*** he is fast lol.

 

[Shogun]

Let me throw my two cents in:

If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it. I personally believe that in order to understand the higher concepts of Aiki or even japanese culture, it is NECESSARY to understand Ki. just my Opinion.

 

[Scout_379]

If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it.

Now thats wisdom

 

[Matt Stone]

Come on u guys! Beleive me! I've seen a man do it! A very advanced Karate/Aikido Sensei, dodged the punch, pushed the puncher's hand (flick of wrist!), and sent him at least 2 meters.

Two things...

1) The teacher in question made physical contact;

2) 2 meters isn't that far to go when you fall as a result of your own imbalance (played upon by someone who knows where and when to push you in order to capitalize on your momentum).

And there have been several documented cases of many, many other people performing other such feats (eg. video of boards breaking b4 actual contact, or old men single handedly disposing of multiple attackers). In fact, there have even been many scientific reports on activities performed by monks through the manipulation of ki. Take this for example:
A group of monks entered a freezing pool, any normal person would have frozen and suffered hypothermia in a matter of minutes, but in their case, steam was reported to have been given off the surrounding water. Through deep meditation excercises they were able to raise their body tempurature to cope. Read from Ripleys of all places lol.

I believe in qigong, I practice qigong, I believe I have witnessed some remarkable things attributed to qigong practice. However, in order to affect a physical body, you must make contact with said physical body. Jedi tricks don't exist any more than the tooth fairy, and when I cite "scientific proof" Ripley's Believe it or Not isn't exactly the factual reference I'd prefer...

Please list specifics regarding the amazing scientific proof you have of these no touch abilities you have knowledge of... George Dillman doesn't count, nor do any of his students, as their NTKO skills have failed every single time they've been tried on "unbelievers."

You are entitled to your opinion. But you cannot deny hard evidence and put down others just because you believe the idea is preposterous.

When you provide "hard evidence," then I suspect people will believe. You have yet to do that, however...

But in my style and others it is mentioned frequently, and with emphasis, we do not beleive that it there is anything mystical about it.

Please describe your qigong training.

Call it inertia or w/e u want, but it works.

Well, if it is inertia, then it isn't qi is it? It's inertia. Pick one, please.

As for my evidence: I'm no idiot, I know about the effects possible in the editing room. I've seen the board break - I am aware that it could have been faked.

Then citing such potentially questionable events as "scientific proof" isn't something you should do... It makes you look stupid, even more so when you admit that the event in question, the event you are offering as "proof," could have, and likely was, faked.

The man i saw throw a senior student 2 meters by the wrist flick DOES practice ki, inertia was mostly responsible, but it was by using ki that he found the other mans weakness.

So it was inertia and not qi? Which one, please. And it wasn't qi that "found" the other man's weakness, but that person's skill and experience that allowed him to "find" his "weakness."

In the practice of Tai-chi push hands this is even more evident. Although Tai-chi pratitioners are more concerned with creating balace and harmony in their personal chi.

The practice of push hands is not what you think it is. It is a sensitivity drill that has far more to do with learning to relax in order to follow your opponent's movement without jerky movements than it does with "creating balance in your personal qi."

Do you practice Taijiquan, by any chance?

 

[muaythaifreak]

FYI, Jackie Chan's fight scenes are VERY HIGHLY coreographed and sometimes take several days to shoot a single five or ten min sequence. He could no more execute the moves in his movies in a real life situation than I could. Granted, he is a very talented martial artist. I do not deny this and I have the utmost respect for his abilities. However, no one, including Jackie Chan himself could execute those kinds of moves with that kind of continuous accuracy in a life or death situation. It is physically impossible.

If you are saying that "ki" is simply the understanding of the laws of nature and how to manipulate them to your advantage, then I agree with you. It is possible to do this. But people cannot throw, strike, or kill with out touching their opponent in some manner. Boards cannot be broken without physical contact of some sort. (Except in movies or video's.) And yes, acclimatization can allow someone to endure extended periods of adverse temperatures. As is proven by the people who swim the English Channel. The average person would die of hypothermia in less than ten or fifteen minutes in those waters. As yet, I'm fairly certain that no one has swam it in less than that.

 

[Scout_379]

whoa..too many questions...


to be honest, i just logged in for the pupose of apologizing. I am 16 years old, and I realize that I can be moody and ignorant. And that my claims are questionable. For this I am sorry. My "hard evidence" was indeed hard to believe. You had every right to post back in that respect. I should not have tried so hard or made my stories anymore than they really were. just stories.

I got a little obsessed in defending myself against muaythaifreak and hedgehogey (srry guys), just for the purpose of feeling like a big shot. I have a LOT to learn. But I have never said it was possible to throw without contact.


But I beleive in the practice of ki, and I would like to thank you Mr. Stone for teaching me the finer points of argueing online. 2 metres is not far i kno. and i did not say he didn't touch the other guy.

For the record I was referring to taoist tai-chi which is invoved in personal balance and alignment/harmony, to promote good health.

FYI muaythaifreak, Jackie Chan has done this, in an interview I once read, (in a friends maxim magazine if u really insist on a source), he and a friend accidentally pissed off some (supposedly Triad) gang members by knocking over their bikes. 6 guys agaist 2, Jackie Chan is still here today. but im not some harcore fan who beleives that Mr. Chan is the supreme fighter. Others can do it too. It is not "physically impossible"

 

[muaythaifreak]

Your absolutely right, two on six is very possible. One on ten however is a different bowl of soup. In most of Chan's movies, he's up against anywhere from four to fifteen attackers, maybe even more. And I doubt very much if he was jumping through ladders and using armchairs as projectiles in the fight you are talking about. I did not say that beating multiple attackers is impossible. I said the moves he uses are impossible to do in a real fight. Not all, but many.

As for the rest of your last post, don't worry about any of it. That's what the forums are for, to learn and make friends. A little friendly debate never hurt anyone and I enjoy them.

This thread is beginning to go off track, let's get back to "ki".

 

[Scout_379]

thx for your forgiveness

As for a friendly debate...

U wanna start a thread on multiple attackers?

 

[muaythaifreak]

I'm game for a thread on just about anything.

 

[Shogun]

Well, if it is inertia, then it isn't qi is it? It's inertia. Pick one, please

Not to be rude, but Ki is a Japanese word (energy, life force, etc) and very well might have the same concept. The Idea of inertia is a western term. Ki is Japanese. they are one in the same, without being the same. was that confusing? probably. I do that a lot.

 

[muaythaifreak]

Inertia does not mean "life force", or "energy". And I'm fairly certain that the law of inertia is pretty much accepted everywhere, not just in the west.

 

[Shogun]

No. it doesnt. but that is exactly what I meant. They are different, but the (older) concepts of Ki (japanese) were similar to what the western world thinks/thought of, Inertia. obviously inertia isnt Ki. but flip that around, and that might be the answer. is Ki inertia? anyway, I stand by my first post.

If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it. I personally believe that in order to understand the higher concepts of Aiki or even japanese culture, it is NECESSARY to understand Ki. just my Opinion.

 

[Matt Stone]

Not to be rude, but Ki is a Japanese word (energy, life force, etc) and very well might have the same concept.

I speak Japanese (a little, anyway), and used to speak a smattering of Chinese. In Chinese, inertia is duo2xing2, while qi2 means air, manner or spirit... Nowhere near the same word, but thanks for playing...

The Idea of inertia is a western term. Ki is Japanese. they are one in the same, without being the same.

So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?" That's terribly arrogant, isn't it? Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history?

This is a problem that I have soapboxed about on MT before... Monolingual Anglophones attempting to make use of foreign language terms without possessing a real understanding of a) the word's real meaning, b) the cultural context of the word, or c) the relevance the word has to the use the aforementioned Anglophone is attempting to assign it.

In Japanese and Chinese both, ki or qi is used as a suffix lending a quality to the word... For example, tien1qi2 is "heaven spirit/energy," or more properly "weather." In a way it is almost like referring to "-ness" in English... "-ness" is a suffix referring to a characteristic that something possesses, but you don't know what kind of "-ness" until you throw something in front of it!

But Scout was trying to state that the teacher he viewed accomplished his feats through the use of qi, but later said that it was inertia that accomplished the act. I asked him to choose which one it was, that's all...

 

[Scout_379]

I did not say it was inertia, but in my arrogance I made some very strange comments that I am quite embarrased of now.


What I meant to type was that it could have been a combination of the two, that the man's practice in ki could have given him a little extra inuitionary feeling towards the manipulation of the students momentum/inertia. We could all be wrong, There are very many differing opinions as to the actual nature of ki. But why are we argueing about the literal meaning? My sensei is Japanese and speaks the language fluently, and he uses the term "ki" in much the same way I have seen it used here, by everybody.

In Japanese and Chinese both, ki or qi is used as a suffix lending a quality to the word... For example, tien1qi2 is "heaven spirit/energy," or more properly "weather."

Also used as a prefix, for example: kime

 

[Matt Stone]

Also used as a prefix, for example: kime

Nice try, but no... Just because the transliteration (taking a foreign word and representing it with English letters in an attempt to adequately reflect the sound of the foreign word) uses the letters "k" and "i" doesn't mean that the character that is the real word in Japanese is the same... It is simply a homophone (lit. "same sound") and nothing more...

 

[Scout_379]

I also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In kime, ki, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same ki that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however. But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...


kime is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique. <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.