Keumgang Poomsae
- Thread starter dvcochran
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skribs
Grandmaster
@pdg you are correct that you do need to be conscious about improving the skill. But there's also repetitions. There's a time to go over the same stuff over and over again to reinforce it in your memory.
Let's take for example when I'm learning a song on the bass. There are times my instructor stops me and says "hey, you're missing this part" or "you're coming in late here." There are times I spend time trying to memorize the bass line or get my fingers used to playing it. There are times I focus on improving my timing and technique. But there's also times I just play. I just turn on the song and play. And those are the times when I get the most out of playing it. It's not a straight climb. You don't improve and struggle every iteration of practice. Sometimes it's just to get your body used to it.
In the case of the assignment you're talking about, that shows the relationship between 3, 8, and 24, and reinforces it in different ways. The fact that she is getting things wrong suggests the opposite of what you thought. For one, you say it's impossible to fail, but yet she's failing the assignment. Whether it's because she's not paying attention or doesn't know the answer is irrelevant. She's getting sloppy and making mistakes. I can't think of a single job I've ever had where you can brush off an assignment because you're too good to do it.
It's a lesson I had to learn when I was doing addition and subtraction. I was supposed do questions like what she had. I was supposed to do 10 + 8 = ?, and then I was supposed to check my work by doing a subtraction problem. Well, sometimes I'd mess up. But rather than do what I was supposed to do and check my work, I would just rewrite the problem. So 10 + 8 = 16, then I'd just write 16 - 8 = 10. Every single problem I got wrong I messed up both times, and it was because I rushed through it to get it done. It was hard for me to slow down and do it right. It's the same concept in martial arts that basics and fundamentals should never be considered beneath you.
It reminds me of a student of mine. When he was a green belt, he was struggling to remember his green belt stuff. He'd punch with the wrong arm, mix up the kicks, and do his forms really sloppy. But he was convinced he knew his stuff, and also the green belt 1-stripe stuff as well. He begged every class to do the green 1-stripe kicks and punches and forms, and every time I'd have him sit down. Finally, one day he was begging to do the more advanced stuff, so I told him to prove to me that he could do the regular stuff. Where I'm normally encouraging, this time I called him out for every single mistake. He realized how much work he had to do on his stuff, and he pushed himself.
The last thing you have to realize is how many parents nowadays will complain to the teacher when their kid gets bad grades. Good for the teacher for sticking to her guns instead of caving when a parent comes in and tells them they don't how to grade. Nowadays most teachers just give the kid an A to get the parents off their back.
Let's take for example when I'm learning a song on the bass. There are times my instructor stops me and says "hey, you're missing this part" or "you're coming in late here." There are times I spend time trying to memorize the bass line or get my fingers used to playing it. There are times I focus on improving my timing and technique. But there's also times I just play. I just turn on the song and play. And those are the times when I get the most out of playing it. It's not a straight climb. You don't improve and struggle every iteration of practice. Sometimes it's just to get your body used to it.
In the case of the assignment you're talking about, that shows the relationship between 3, 8, and 24, and reinforces it in different ways. The fact that she is getting things wrong suggests the opposite of what you thought. For one, you say it's impossible to fail, but yet she's failing the assignment. Whether it's because she's not paying attention or doesn't know the answer is irrelevant. She's getting sloppy and making mistakes. I can't think of a single job I've ever had where you can brush off an assignment because you're too good to do it.
It's a lesson I had to learn when I was doing addition and subtraction. I was supposed do questions like what she had. I was supposed to do 10 + 8 = ?, and then I was supposed to check my work by doing a subtraction problem. Well, sometimes I'd mess up. But rather than do what I was supposed to do and check my work, I would just rewrite the problem. So 10 + 8 = 16, then I'd just write 16 - 8 = 10. Every single problem I got wrong I messed up both times, and it was because I rushed through it to get it done. It was hard for me to slow down and do it right. It's the same concept in martial arts that basics and fundamentals should never be considered beneath you.
It reminds me of a student of mine. When he was a green belt, he was struggling to remember his green belt stuff. He'd punch with the wrong arm, mix up the kicks, and do his forms really sloppy. But he was convinced he knew his stuff, and also the green belt 1-stripe stuff as well. He begged every class to do the green 1-stripe kicks and punches and forms, and every time I'd have him sit down. Finally, one day he was begging to do the more advanced stuff, so I told him to prove to me that he could do the regular stuff. Where I'm normally encouraging, this time I called him out for every single mistake. He realized how much work he had to do on his stuff, and he pushed himself.
The last thing you have to realize is how many parents nowadays will complain to the teacher when their kid gets bad grades. Good for the teacher for sticking to her guns instead of caving when a parent comes in and tells them they don't how to grade. Nowadays most teachers just give the kid an A to get the parents off their back.
Cheers.
She doesn't always fully understand the application or the reasons for someday possibly needing the knowledge, but seeing that stuff can be applied in diverse ways plants seeds of curiosity and definitely helps with motivation.
Too often I hear things like "why do you want to know that?" or "ask google"...
Firstly, I didn't say it was impossible to fail...
I know what the point of the exercise was, and she completed the exercise perfectly many times before she just got bored of the simplistic repetition and total lack of challenge. We were having to force her to sit and do it over and over again and continually explain that she knows it and just has to get it out of the way.
Go back to it after a period of weeks or months and she's back to snapping through it easily and correctly.
Translated to later in her life:
There are people who can do that sort of thing for a living, they can sit in a factory and press the same button 2,000 times a day for 40 years and be relatively fine. Some can even take pride in it.
That's good, society needs people like that.
I think, given her creativity and curiosity, that would absolutely destroy her and I'll do everything I can to help her avoid that. Same goes for my son - I honestly can't see either of them being fulfilled by "a job".
That's also good - without creative thinkers that aren't satisfied with "just the same" we stagnate.
I've done that sort of job in the past, and I managed 3 weeks before I told the line manager that I'd finish the shift and never set foot on the premises again.
Now, I don't brush off assignments because I think I'm above them - but what I do is choose what I accept. This is because I've chosen to not have a boss and therefore nothing gets assigned to me. If I go to look at a job and don't want it, I can either walk away or alternatively quote a high enough price to compensate. Then I do it that once and never have to do it again if I so choose.
I get there's just sometimes things you have to do, but I (and they) need that tempered by just more. I don't enjoy doing my tax returns, but I get it done because it's a means to an end - keeping it in prepped so I can complete it once a year I can do - I couldn't do it again and again because it would bore me to tears yet some people make a career of it.
If the assignment for her was "do these three identical calculations in different orders 250 times" then I'm actually pretty happy for her to fail, because I don't think she's wired that way. I'd be equally happy with her to pass it, if it was the way she worked.
We don't have grades as such, we do get term reports though. Instead of being based on a one time test they're a summary of the term. For both kids they're pretty consistently "exceeds expectations" and that's nothing to do with any influence I may project onto the teachers.
In fact, it's the opposite.
If they're exceeding your expectations then raise your expectations - the ones you have now are obviously too easy for them.
If it were a test or exam I'd expect them to do quite well as that's an assessment of what has been learned and retained - the rest of the time there should be an element of challenge and of meeting that challenge.
skribs
Grandmaster
@pdg wow...just wow. So many thoughts while reading that...
- It's a good thing you're your own boss, because otherwise it would suck to be your coworkers or your boss. It definitely sounds like it would suck to be your subordinate if you think things are beneath you. You remind me of a coworker of mine nobody wants to go to meetings with because they always get more work - the things they expected him to do that he just didn't want to do. The attitude also remind me of the chefs or restaurant owners on Hell's Kitchen that have filthy restaurants and are like "why would I clean? I have staff for that."
- You would be happy for your daughter to fail at something if she wasn't good at it? Instead of working to overcome that limitation? In Taekwondo, we tell our students to work on their weaknesses, both in class and outside. To get rid of your bad habits. When I was in school I had a fear of public speaking. I "wasn't wired that way." Well, I re-wired myself by taking public speaking classes 3 quarters in a row to get over it. I wouldn't be able to teach martial arts today if I hadn't done that.
- There are a lot of jobs that require creativity where you still have daily tasks and a supervisor. And unless you just want to support your kids until they can start their own business, they're probably going to need jobs at some point. If not, you're making a strong case for the Affluenza defense.
- I have no idea how well she is doing this far into the thread. You say it's too easy. Then you say she does them wrong. Then you say the teacher says she needs more practice. Then you say she's exceeding expectations. Is she messing up one test here or there and otherwise doing great? Or is she just sloppy all the time and yet the teacher gives her a great grade anyway? Your position on how well she has doing seems to have changed from post to post. I make a comment about what you say, and then you tell me the exact opposite situation. You say she can't fail. So I comment on why teachers would do that, and you say she fails fairly regularly. Then I comment on that and you say she's getting exceeds expectations. If she's indeed getting "exceeds expectations", then why are you upset?
OP
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I have said nearly the exact same thing many, many times! I am thankful for people who can happily do the same repetitive task day after day. They are literally building the essentials for most of the world's lifestyle.
I have done such work and realized it was not for me. I 'do' the same things within the confines of the type of work I do. Industrial automation consists of a lot of programming and most control systems have similar components. But I get to oversee the projects, often design the systems and I program with my own unique features. We also have a cattle operation and while you do punch cattle much the same you never quite know what is next. As the business owner, you always have the choice to walk away and come back to something later. No @skribs, that does not mean I ignore my priorities. I would not be in business after 26 years if I done that. I have expanded, expanded again, and contracted my 2 of my businesses as my focus and priorities have changed. The ability to choose to do this is empowering, true freedom.
I am pretty certain that is not what pdg was saying either. More that, if you are good at your job, you can easier pick and choose what you do, not be slaved to a schedule.
I find more than enough differences in my day to day to keep me satisfied.
Bashing a 7 year old is bad form. IMHO
skribs
Grandmaster
So anyone with a boss isn't good at what they do? Give me a break.
I'm not bashing a 7 year old. I'm bashing the parent who would raise their child to be unfit to employ, and think that their lack of employ-ability is somehow a positive trait. The martial artist who doesn't believe in working on weaknesses, repeating basic things to build competency, or following the authority of a boss. Because that's what I've gotten out of this thread: a ton of arrogance on his part. He's better than the teacher. He's better than people who work jobs that are "beneath him." His daughter (an extension of him) is better than the curriculum. His daughter and son will be better than the common folk that do menial tasks. That's what I've gotten from this thread, and that's what I'm talking about.
Exactly, and more in a way - which I'll go into more detail about later.
As to the rest, especially the reply from @skribs - I have some counter responses to that but it's going to take a little more time than I have available right now to type it coherently, so I'll do it later on - a family activity is a lot more important to me.
Well, a few minutes here and there is what I have, so I'll just randomly splat stuff in the thread...
So, I'm happy for my daughter to fail this sort of assignment - yes.
Not because she just doesn't like it, but because she's not suited to it.
An assignment such as "answer this set of 3 questions 200 times in different orders" is nothing more or less than an aptitude test. You either have the aptitude to do it, or you don't.
Berating a 7 year old (well, any age) for not being compatible with the activity and trying to force them to comply until they sit and do it without question or complaint is a form of social engineering that I cannot and will not support.
It's supposed to be an assessment of how they work and learn, not a tool for changing their natural personality.
I've done a few aptitude tests for various work over the years...
One of them, the room of about 35 potential apprentices was informed at the beginning that the test is designed so it's not possible to complete it in the time given and this was repeated in the information blurb on the cover page.
Two of us took that as a challenge and completed it with a perfect score.
Later, we were told that the true intent of the test is to not only find those who can work out the answers under a bit of time pressure, but also those who don't just accept that something isn't possible. It was one of the tools used to get 30 successful candidates of the 500+ applicants they got every year (and those were the ones to get through the initial stages).
Another, I 'failed' by completing it and getting every question right - the test was designed such that the ones who do correctly complete it are the most likely to be unsuitable for the job in question.
I didn't get the job that the test was for, but I did get offered one at a higher level - unfortunately it was a case of 'details kept on file' and I'd got different employment by then.
It's not a case of me being better than the stereotypical factory worker, just different.
They are better suited to that work than I am.
I'm better suited to different work than they are.
So, I'm happy for my daughter to fail this sort of assignment - yes.
Not because she just doesn't like it, but because she's not suited to it.
An assignment such as "answer this set of 3 questions 200 times in different orders" is nothing more or less than an aptitude test. You either have the aptitude to do it, or you don't.
Berating a 7 year old (well, any age) for not being compatible with the activity and trying to force them to comply until they sit and do it without question or complaint is a form of social engineering that I cannot and will not support.
It's supposed to be an assessment of how they work and learn, not a tool for changing their natural personality.
I've done a few aptitude tests for various work over the years...
One of them, the room of about 35 potential apprentices was informed at the beginning that the test is designed so it's not possible to complete it in the time given and this was repeated in the information blurb on the cover page.
Two of us took that as a challenge and completed it with a perfect score.
Later, we were told that the true intent of the test is to not only find those who can work out the answers under a bit of time pressure, but also those who don't just accept that something isn't possible. It was one of the tools used to get 30 successful candidates of the 500+ applicants they got every year (and those were the ones to get through the initial stages).
Another, I 'failed' by completing it and getting every question right - the test was designed such that the ones who do correctly complete it are the most likely to be unsuitable for the job in question.
I didn't get the job that the test was for, but I did get offered one at a higher level - unfortunately it was a case of 'details kept on file' and I'd got different employment by then.
It's not a case of me being better than the stereotypical factory worker, just different.
They are better suited to that work than I am.
I'm better suited to different work than they are.
I don't believe that's what he's saying at all - at least I hope not.
You can be incredibly good at what you do and have a boss.
You can also be incredibly good at what you do and still fail miserably at being your own boss.
You can also be incredibly good at what you do and fail miserably under some form of management and only find success without any boss other than yourself.
Or you can be great, or mediocre, or terrible in any of the above situations, or myriad others.
Everyone is different.
Sometimes those differences are small enough that you can happily modify yourself to fit in a slightly different box and fit well.
Sometimes those differences are so great that trying to modify yourself only brings frustration and unhappiness.
_Simon_
Senior Master
Yo! Just been reading some of my old MA mags and came across this article @skribs , whether it's of any interest or sheds any light I'm don't know (Hopefully it's readable!).
But I found it particularly interesting when he talks about 'Oyo', and its distinction from bunkai.
"Beyond the bunkai is oyo, and this I understand to be the application of those principles that some people call bunkai.
Oyo has movement, life, expression and interpretation. Oyo is not bound by the exact movements found in the kata, but, for me, is instead the conduit by which the ideas in the kata find their way into my understanding."
Almost like the kata simply present the principles, the conceptual framework. Oyo brings it to life and is not the exact formula, but it moves from those principles gleaned in forms. In the fluid, organic, non-predictable way that is like life
But I found it particularly interesting when he talks about 'Oyo', and its distinction from bunkai.
"Beyond the bunkai is oyo, and this I understand to be the application of those principles that some people call bunkai.
Oyo has movement, life, expression and interpretation. Oyo is not bound by the exact movements found in the kata, but, for me, is instead the conduit by which the ideas in the kata find their way into my understanding."
Almost like the kata simply present the principles, the conceptual framework. Oyo brings it to life and is not the exact formula, but it moves from those principles gleaned in forms. In the fluid, organic, non-predictable way that is like life
OP
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Yo! Just been reading some of my old MA mags and came across this article @skribs , whether it's of any interest or sheds any light I'm don't know (Hopefully it's readable!).
But I found it particularly interesting when he talks about 'Oyo', and its distinction from bunkai.
"Beyond the bunkai is oyo, and this I understand to be the application of those principles that some people call bunkai.
Oyo has movement, life, expression and interpretation. Oyo is not bound by the exact movements found in the kata, but, for me, is instead the conduit by which the ideas in the kata find their way into my understanding."
Almost like the kata simply present the principles, the conceptual framework. Oyo brings it to life and is not the exact formula, but it moves from those principles gleaned in forms. In the fluid, organic, non-predictable way that is like life
Could not be said better. Do you know it this article is accessible online?
skribs
Grandmaster
Yo! Just been reading some of my old MA mags and came across this article @skribs , whether it's of any interest or sheds any light I'm don't know (Hopefully it's readable!).
But I found it particularly interesting when he talks about 'Oyo', and its distinction from bunkai.
"Beyond the bunkai is oyo, and this I understand to be the application of those principles that some people call bunkai.
Oyo has movement, life, expression and interpretation. Oyo is not bound by the exact movements found in the kata, but, for me, is instead the conduit by which the ideas in the kata find their way into my understanding."
Almost like the kata simply present the principles, the conceptual framework. Oyo brings it to life and is not the exact formula, but it moves from those principles gleaned in forms. In the fluid, organic, non-predictable way that is like life
The two issues that I have as it relates to this discussion is: 1) this is an article about Karate, not Taekwondo, and 2) there is a lot of "I believe," "I think," and similar other means which make this an opinion piece instead of curriculum discussion. Not that I have a problem with the concept in general, but this discussion is over the official KKW forms.
KKW does not do anything remotely related to Bunkai as part of their teaching or training. I have not even heard the word "Oyo" before, I don't even know what that is.
I'm not saying this stuff is bad. I wish the TKD forms were designed and taught with application in mind, and that we would teach and practice Bunkai. It's just the reality that in KKW TKD, it doesn't connect.
paitingman
Brown Belt
skribs
Grandmaster
Huh?
paitingman
Brown Belt
It must've been whatever other thread we talked about sport poomsae.
You said you believed KKW hadn't changed how forms were taught and referenced some videos you had seen.
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skribs
Grandmaster
They're available on Youtube. I wasn't looking for them.
paitingman
Brown Belt
Is there a problem? I was just asking
Have I offended you somehow?
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skribs
Grandmaster
I was simply correcting your expectations of me.
