Keumgang Poomsae

[skribs]

No Skribs, I am not trying to run you off at all. Is this what you want to feel like people are doing to you? Myself, like almost everyone here, are just trying to help others.
There is value in the forms. It amazes me how summarily you have come to your conclusion yet I can hear in this and other threads that you have the ability to find it.

Value and application are two different things.
Direct application of the movement and secondary applications of similar movements are two different things.

Every single piece of application I've got from something other than the forms. Every time I go and look at a form and say "it's kinda like this application", it's because I know that application from another source of information. And more likely because there's only so many ways the human body can move and it coincidentally looks like move in the form, than that the form is expected to teach it.

 

[paitingman]

Value and application are two different things.
Direct application of the movement and secondary applications of similar movements are two different things.

Every single piece of application I've got from something other than the forms. Every time I go and look at a form and say "it's kinda like this application", it's because I know that application from another source of information. And more likely because there's only so many ways the human body can move and it coincidentally looks like move in the form, than that the form is expected to teach it.

I think your standard is nearly impossible for modern KKW poomsae to live up to. Forms were revamped and standardized with transparent, international competition in mind.

The strict standards that rolled out years ago brought a paradigm shift in Taekwondo competition. Serious forms competition was basically not a thing before.

Judging more traditional MDK style forms is often subjective and understandably difficult. Trying to compete with forms based on application and various training principles has always been a ridiculous notion to me anyway.
But competing with forms and techniques designed for elite competition just plain makes sense.

At a seminar with Kang Suji and her father Grandmaster Kang, this is basically what was related to me when questions about the old style and stances were brought up.
Granted, my Korean is not great and their English at the time was pretty minimal. But Grandmaster Kang basically responded, "Old is good, but this way any random child from any country can train hard and have a pathway to becoming world champion." Clear technical standards for INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.
Which I love the notion and enjoy sport poomsae a lot for all the doors it opened for different type of students, but I don't believe application is what was driving the why's and how's of the new standards at all.

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[skribs]

I think your standard is nearly impossible for modern KKW poomsae to live up to.
...
At a seminar with Kang Suji and her father Grandmaster Kang, this is basically what was related to me when questions about the old style and stances were brought up.
Granted, my Korean is not great and their English at the time was pretty minimal. But Grandmaster Kang basically responded, "Old is good, but this way any random child from any country can train hard and have a pathway to becoming world champion." Clear technical standards for INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.
Which I love the notion and enjoy sport poomsae a lot for all the doors it opened for different type of students, but I don't believe application is what was driving the why's and how's of the new standards at all.

That's kind of my point.

However, that standard only applies to deriving application from the forms. It's not a standard for the form's usefulness as a whole. Which is why I still do the forms, in spite of their lack of application.

 

[paitingman]

That's kind of my point.

However, that standard only applies to deriving application from the forms. It's not a standard for the form's usefulness as a whole. Which is why I still do the forms, in spite of their lack of application.

I figured.

Did you ever practice old style taegueks?

I guess my question is if we're talking about application, why even bring up or train sport style poomsae?
What's wrong with MDK way or YOUR way? Why care so much about official KKW?
Do you like to compete sport poomsae? or do you just really like to be aligned with KKW?

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[skribs]

I figured.

Did you ever practice old style taegueks?

I guess my question is if we're talking about application, why even bring up or train sport style poomsae?
What's wrong with MDK way or YOUR way? Why care so much about official KKW?
Do you like to compete sport poomsae? or do you just really like to be aligned with KKW?

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I mean...I'm in a KKW school. I don't really understand the point of the question. It would be like me walking into a wrestling gym and asking them why they like pinning people, or walking into a boxing gym and asking why everyone is so obsessed with wearing gloves when they practice.

I'm not in a MDK school. I don't know what the MDK way is. I have 0 opinion of it, either positive or negative. It's frankly irrelevant to my training.

I was searching for application, because I was under the assumption that's what the forms are for. My research has caused me to change my expectations.

I think I answered the rest of your question earlier in the thread. I like them for the same reason I like doing 540 kicks. I'm good at them, and I enjoy doing them. I actually enjoy them more now that I'm not struggling with their meaning.

My degree is in psychology. One of my favorite theories that helped me deal with my own issues in the past is Carl Roger's idea of the Perceived Self, Ideal Self, and Real Self. Put simply, there's what you think you are, what you want to be, and what you actually are. When the three are aligned, you are self-actualized, which is the goal. If the three are not aligned, then you have to adjust them until they are. This could mean adjusting your perceived self by fixing your delusions, adjusting your ideal self to more manageable goals, or adjusting your real self so you can better meet those goals.

I apply the same concept here. My perception of the forms was that the forms were there to teach me fighting, and I struggled for 5 years because reality didn't match that perception. I feel a lot better about the forms now that I've brought my perception in line with reality - the forms are a performance art, with various physical and mental benefits. The forms are not a way to teach applicable technique or strategy. I've accepted that, and now I enjoy the forms more, because I'm not trying to make them something that they're not.

 

[paitingman]

I mean...I'm in a KKW school. I don't really understand the point of the question. It would be like me walking into a wrestling gym and asking them why they like pinning people, or walking into a boxing gym and asking why everyone is so obsessed with wearing gloves when they practice.

I'm not in a MDK school. I don't know what the MDK way is. I have 0 opinion of it, either positive or negative. It's frankly irrelevant to my training.

I was searching for application, because I was under the assumption that's what the forms are for. My research has caused me to change my expectations.

I think I answered the rest of your question earlier in the thread. I like them for the same reason I like doing 540 kicks. I'm good at them, and I enjoy doing them. I actually enjoy them more now that I'm not struggling with their meaning.

My degree is in psychology. One of my favorite theories that helped me deal with my own issues in the past is Carl Roger's idea of the Perceived Self, Ideal Self, and Real Self. Put simply, there's what you think you are, what you want to be, and what you actually are. When the three are aligned, you are self-actualized, which is the goal. If the three are not aligned, then you have to adjust them until they are. This could mean adjusting your perceived self by fixing your delusions, adjusting your ideal self to more manageable goals, or adjusting your real self so you can better meet those goals.

I apply the same concept here. My perception of the forms was that the forms were there to teach me fighting, and I struggled for 5 years because reality didn't match that perception. I feel a lot better about the forms now that I've brought my perception in line with reality - the forms are a performance art, with various physical and mental benefits. The forms are not a way to teach applicable technique or strategy. I've accepted that, and now I enjoy the forms more, because I'm not trying to make them something that they're not.

Yeah but how long have you been with KKW? How long have you been training TKD? did you ever practice old style taegueks?

I've always been part of a KKW school as well...
I have no idea what your school is like so I ask.


Your analogy works if we're only talking about sports.
It's like I walk into a MARTIAL ARTS school and say, "why are you only practicing sport rules? Are you training to compete?"
You're confining yourself to the ruleset.
The only ones I know who do that are only focused on competing.

You already know Taekwondo goes far beyond just the Olympic style sparring matches. There is also more to it than just the sport poomsae ruleset.



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[paitingman]

I'm not in a MDK school. I don't know what the MDK way is. I have 0 opinion of it, either positive or negative. It's frankly irrelevant to my training.

.

I just say MDK way because most old style taeguek I saw was some local schools version of the MDK way. It's just a clear standard amongst the old style to point to.
Have you only ever practiced sport poomsae?
I was trying to ask you whether you had practiced any old style poomsae. I don't know your training background so please excuse me if it's frankly irrelevant to your training.

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[dvcochran]

Carl Roger's idea of the Perceived Self, Ideal Self, and Real Self. Put simply, there's what you think you are, what you want to be, and what you actually are. When the three are aligned, you are self-actualized, which is the goal. If the three are not aligned, then you have to adjust them until they are. This could mean adjusting your perceived self by fixing your delusions, adjusting your ideal self to more manageable goals, or adjusting your real self so you can better meet those goals.

I don't remember which graduate degree it was but I had to take a psychology class and read a Carl Rogers book, the one about the 3 core conditions if I recall correctly. I could not connect with much of it but I still remember where he talks about changing you own self to meet goals; I really aligned with that part. The other logic just rings very loudly of making compromise for lack of not being willing to put in the work.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

 

[skribs]

Yeah but how long have you been with KKW? How long have you been training TKD? did you ever practice old style taegueks?

I've always been part of a KKW school as well...
I have no idea what your school is like so I ask.


Your analogy works if we're only talking about sports.
It's like I walk into a MARTIAL ARTS school and say, "why are you only practicing sport rules? Are you training to compete?"
You're confining yourself to the ruleset.
The only ones I know who do that are only focused on competing.

You already know Taekwondo goes far beyond just the Olympic style sparring matches. There is also more to it than just the sport poomsae ruleset.



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I don't remember which graduate degree it was but I had to take a psychology class and read a Carl Rogers book, the one about the 3 core conditions if I recall correctly. I could not connect with much of it but I still remember where he talks about changing you own self to meet goals; I really aligned with that part. The other logic just rings very loudly of making compromise for lack of not being willing to put in the work.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

Some of personal growth is realizing that your expectations for yourself are too high, or that you're in denial of your capabilities.

There have been plenty of examples of this happening in my life. One is that I was burning myself out by being at the dojang too much. I had this perception of myself as someone who could handle the workload. And I was getting sick 6-8 times a year. I'm talking respiratory infections that would last 2-3 weeks. For 5 years, I spent at least 3-4 months of the year sick. I had no sick leave at work, I burned all of my annual leave on being sick, and there were a lot of times I was either working from home, or going to work sick, because I had no time left to spare.

Six months ago I had a talk with my Master, who had been saying for a long time that I should cut back my hours for my health. I always took it as an insult, that he didn't think I was strong enough or dedicated enough to teach as much as I was. Finally, I told him "you're right, I need to cut back." I kept trying to push myself to meet that goal of being the guy who teaches 20 hours a week, and it was killing me. I cut back to 5 hours a week. I'm sick right now, but it's the first time I've been sick in those 6 months. I'm a lot healthier and a lot stronger now.

I had to temper my expectations of myself and bring them more in line with what I am realistically capable of.

An example from fiction is from The Big Bang Theory, when Howard wanted to dump his exceptional girlfriend because he was holding out for Angelina Jolie or Katie Sackoff. It was a huge piece of character growth for him to realize that he needed to set more realistic goals in his love life. So he put aside his superficial desire for a superstar, and instead went with this girl he actually knew, who was smart and beautiful, and they had several seasons of a great relationship. It's fiction, but it happens in reality, too.

The last example I can think of (whether it's reality or fiction, you decide) is most of the problems on Kitchen Nightmares. People are in such delusion that their food is fine, their management style is fine, or their restaurant's lack of hygiene is fine, that they cannot learn to change, because their hubris is holding them back. In this case, their perceived self was this virtuoso of cuisine, when in reality they were lazy hacks. Once they were broken of that hubris, they were able to actually learn how to function in the business.

Yes, sometimes you need to push yourself. But sometimes you need to evaluate yourself, and sometimes you need to evaluate your goals.

 

[skribs]

@paitingman

We learn the Palgwe forms, but we learn them in the same teaching style as the Taegueks (here's the form, copy it). This is true of both my current school and my new school.

I have never trained in MDK. I wouldn't even know what MDK was if it wasn't for this forum, and to be honest all I know about it is the name.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't remember which graduate degree it was but I had to take a psychology class and read a Carl Rogers book, the one about the 3 core conditions if I recall correctly. I could not connect with much of it but I still remember where he talks about changing you own self to meet goals; I really aligned with that part. The other logic just rings very loudly of making compromise for lack of not being willing to put in the work.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

You disagree with what? I

 

[skribs]

You disagree with what? I

That the only way to get better mental health is to work harder. Burnout and unrealistic goals both exist. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate your goals and expectations.

 

[pdg]

That the only way to get better mental health is to work harder. Burnout and unrealistic goals both exist. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate your goals and expectations.

Sometimes it's sensible to re-evaluate goals.

Too often though too many people only ever set easy goals that they know they can meet with the absolute minimum effort.


I've had arguments with my daughter's teachers before about the complexity of the homework she's been set, especially in maths - 20 questions that are only actually 3 questions in different orders aren't anything of a challenge. It doesn't make her feel good and she gets bored and easily distracted. The attitude seems to be that the teacher doesn't want the kids to get questions wrong because it might demotivate them (and it affects her stats...)

Ok, my daughter is 7 - but she gets far more out of being challenged than she gets from repeating things she knows.

That sort of thing can track through your whole life - if you never set high goals and never challenge yourself then can you ever say you've really achieved anything?

 

[pdg]

Oh, and it can be small things too.

Like a little earlier this evening, it was dark, cold and raining - could've put the heating on and sat on the sofa with a blanket and watched TV. Easy.

Instead, went out cycling with my son.

 

[paitingman]

That the only way to get better mental health is to work harder. Burnout and unrealistic goals both exist. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate your goals and expectations.

I can agree with that. Knowing yourself and knowing the situation definitely helps a lot.

Maybe off topic, but how much time do you have got for straight up training versus teaching these days?

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[skribs]

I can agree with that. Knowing yourself and knowing the situation definitely helps a lot.

Maybe off topic, but how much time do you have got for straight up training versus teaching these days?

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I train 2-3 hours of TKD, 1 hour of Hapkido in class. A bit outside of class. I've recently started hitting the gym again, 3 days a week. I started that 2 months ago, and I fear that may be why I'm ill now. Just overdoing it again. As far as martial arts training goes, it's the same number of classes I was taking even when I was teaching every day.

I was trying to set up a study group with the other 3rd degree black belts to get a bit more practice in, but it's been hard finding the right time.

I've had arguments with my daughter's teachers before about the complexity of the homework she's been set, especially in maths - 20 questions that are only actually 3 questions in different orders aren't anything of a challenge. It doesn't make her feel good and she gets bored and easily distracted. The attitude seems to be that the teacher doesn't want the kids to get questions wrong because it might demotivate them (and it affects her stats...)

I agree with your daughter's teacher, for two reasons:

1. You don't build a skill by doing it once. You build a skill by repetition. As a martial artist, you should know this. So her getting the same questions over and over again is building her skill in that material. I didn't do my times tables once and have them memorized. We had daily quizzes in math that went over the same types of problems for months so that we could memorize how to do them.
2. When I first started teaching, I tried to be strict and keep everyone to a high standard of discipline. Even little kids, even white belts. Within the first 6 months, we had several new students that ended up leaving class crying, never to return, because I pushed them too hard. My Master had a talk with me and explained how confidence is more important than discipline for white belts, and how to control the class without being so strict. You definitely don't want students to feel overwhelmed and like they can't do something.

 

[dvcochran]

I train 2-3 hours of TKD, 1 hour of Hapkido in class. A bit outside of class. I've recently started hitting the gym again, 3 days a week. I started that 2 months ago, and I fear that may be why I'm ill now. Just overdoing it again. As far as martial arts training goes, it's the same number of classes I was taking even when I was teaching every day.

I was trying to set up a study group with the other 3rd degree black belts to get a bit more practice in, but it's been hard finding the right time.



I agree with your daughter's teacher, for two reasons:

1. You don't build a skill by doing it once. You build a skill by repetition. As a martial artist, you should know this. So her getting the same questions over and over again is building her skill in that material. I didn't do my times tables once and have them memorized. We had daily quizzes in math that went over the same types of problems for months so that we could memorize how to do them.
2. When I first started teaching, I tried to be strict and keep everyone to a high standard of discipline. Even little kids, even white belts. Within the first 6 months, we had several new students that ended up leaving class crying, never to return, because I pushed them too hard. My Master had a talk with me and explained how confidence is more important than discipline for white belts, and how to control the class without being so strict. You definitely don't want students to feel overwhelmed and like they can't do something.

PDG was talking about out of class homework, not the day to day classroom practice that you mentioned.
If there is zero chance of failing because the curriculum is too easy and handed to a person on a platter, where is the fun and challenge in that? It would get boring rather quick; a definite symptom of the bigger problems in some classrooms.

 

[skribs]

PDG was talking about out of class homework, not the day to day classroom practice that you mentioned.
If there is zero chance of failing because the curriculum is too easy and handed to a person on a platter, where is the fun and challenge in that? It would get boring rather quick; a definite symptom of the bigger problems in some classrooms.

It's hard to quantify. I don't really have a set schedule for when I practice. Memorization and seeing patterns has always come real easy for me, as has understanding things conceptually. So it's very easy for me to piece together the curriculum. I probably practice as much outside of class as I do inside of class.

Lately my out-of-class training time has focused more on strength and cardio. But that's where I fear I'm overdoing it again. When I recover from this cold, I'm gonna get back into it. If I get sick again in 2 months I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm not going to be able to do both TKD and working out.

 

[pdg]

I agree with your daughter's teacher, for two reasons:

1. You don't build a skill by doing it once. You build a skill by repetition. As a martial artist, you should know this. So her getting the same questions over and over again is building her skill in that material. I didn't do my times tables once and have them memorized. We had daily quizzes in math that went over the same types of problems for months so that we could memorize how to do them.
2. When I first started teaching, I tried to be strict and keep everyone to a high standard of discipline. Even little kids, even white belts. Within the first 6 months, we had several new students that ended up leaving class crying, never to return, because I pushed them too hard. My Master had a talk with me and explained how confidence is more important than discipline for white belts, and how to control the class without being so strict. You definitely don't want students to feel overwhelmed and like they can't do something.

Repetition doesn't build skill, it reinforces it. Once you have a thing 'down' then repeating it doesn't build on it - if each repetition shows a marked improvement, you haven't got it yet.

To build a skill you have to keep moving and changing. The thing you change can cause improvements to the preceding thing while setting you up for what comes next.

From an ma perspective, you could look at something like stances - a newcomer won't get them right, and that's ok. You use repetition to reinforce the bits that are right and get ever smaller improvements to the rest.

As they move on, the other skills that start being added help with the understanding of those first things.

If you were to hold back every white belt from proceeding until they have that first stance perfect most will get bored, lose concentration and motivation and likely leave. You might have one or two that stick with it and then have the best white belts ever after a year or so, but others who proceeded 'normally' will be better because they've had the extra skill building.

So let's say you get shown how to put a brick onto mortar.

If you just repeat putting down the same brick over and over again, after 6 months all you've got is a brick on the floor.

It might be nicely aligned and level, but it's still just a brick on the floor.

If you change that, and you then learn how to put another next to it, and what to do to go around a corner, and how to align the next course, and how to cut in gaps and lintels, and accommodate timbers, and joint in returns - before you know it you have a house.

 

[pdg]

PDG was talking about out of class homework, not the day to day classroom practice that you mentioned.
If there is zero chance of failing because the curriculum is too easy and handed to a person on a platter, where is the fun and challenge in that? It would get boring rather quick; a definite symptom of the bigger problems in some classrooms.

That's totally it.

I've noticed that boredom is a huge factor in my daughter's academic progression.

The first time she had the set of questions (say, 8x3=, 3x8=, 24/8=, 24/3=, repeat 5 times in a different order) she went straight through, 100% correct.

After a month of having that set twice a week (the insistence on constant repetition of the same skill) she was so bored she was barely looking at the screen (online homework) and making silly mistakes like hitting letters instead of numbers or the wrong number, getting wrong answers and getting frustrated.

Her teacher interpreted that as needing more practice on the same questions...

My solution was to introduce her to things like dividing a negative by a decimal - or to look up the spec of her tablet and figure out the current draw to run it based on battery capacity and run time.

The same basic mathematics, but changed sufficiently to actually classify as building a skill.