kenpo

[hoshin1600]

Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.

If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.

Gerry beat me to the point. there is nothing new under the sun and the way people attack has not really changed.
i have posted before about my general dislike of kenpo. the issue as i see it is kenpo was not a traditional art so it had no backround to base methodology on so it created its own. not a bad thing, but i find the whole "scientific" speal from Parker in a way disingenuous. when MMA come about it also created its own methodology of training but it had a testing ground to prove itself out and the pressure to actually get results.
the mistake MA_Student that your making is thinking that it is the technique and attacks that have changed, they havnt. what has changed is the training methodology. we have moved from crawling to walking to horse and buggy to formula 1 race car.
some kenpo and many other arts are still a few steps back.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Gerry beat me to the point. there is nothing new under the sun and the way people attack has not really changed.
i have posted before about my general dislike of kenpo. the issue as i see it is kenpo was not a traditional art so it had no backround to base methodology on so it created its own. not a bad thing, but i find the whole "scientific" speal from Parker in a way disingenuous. when MMA come about it also created its own methodology of training but it had a testing ground to prove itself out and the pressure to actually get results.
the mistake MA_Student that your making is thinking that it is the technique and attacks that have changed, they havnt. what has changed is the training methodology. we have moved from crawling to walking to horse and buggy to formula 1 race car.
some kenpo and many other arts are still a few steps back.

A large portion of Kenpoists have up-dated.

 

[Bigsarg]

my only comment on this is that what you describe as "true kenpo" hold true for every martial art and many other activities and sports. so it really has nothing to do with it being kenpo.

I have extensive training in two other systems. These systems techniques are not as easily interchangeable as are Kenpo techniques. For this reason I agree with you on some level and disagree on others. Kenpo techniques are also more violent than other systems I've trained with. Each system has its pros and cons. Each is better at one thing and weaker at another. So I will agree to agree and disagree at the same time

 

[hoshin1600]

A large portion of Kenpoists have up-dated.

yeah thats one thing i learned (or was told) here. but i havnt seen it myself so i cannot have an opinion on what is current, but then i am not really out there looking and searching either. i do have to maintain a bit of skeptisim because it has been my experience that many kenpo schools have always told me "but we are different" when in fact they were not. its a bit of the "karate style that cried wolf". i will have to see it i guess.

 

[Touch Of Death]

yeah thats one thing i learned (or was told) here. but i havnt seen it myself so i cannot have an opinion on what is current, but then i am not really out there looking and searching either. i do have to maintain a bit of skeptisim because it has been my experience that many kenpo schools have always told me "but we are different" when in fact they were not. its a bit of the "karate style that cried wolf". i will have to see it i guess.

Not that it matters to you, but most of the original kenpo greats came from other systems; so, you are going to get something completely different from school to school.

 

[hoshin1600]

I have extensive training in two other systems. These systems techniques are not as easily interchangeable as are Kenpo techniques. For this reason I agree with you on some level and disagree on others. Kenpo techniques are also more violent than other systems I've trained with. Each system has its pros and cons. Each is better at one thing and weaker at another. So I will agree to agree and disagree at the same time

not sure exactly your meaning.. as i read your post the impression i got was that you were saying "in kenpo you train untill things become natura,l almost unconscious" my point was that, that statement is true for a lot of things.

 

[hoshin1600]

Not that it matters to you, but most of the original kenpo greats came from other systems; so, you are going to get something completely different from school to school.

well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then. i dont doubt what your saying. i just dont have the experience to form another opinion. but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.
i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi, but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.

 

[Touch Of Death]

well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then. i dont doubt what your saying. i just dont have the experience to form another opinion. but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.
i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi, but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.

The Kenpo techniques don't teach anybody how to move; so, let me know what you see. Kenpo 5 guys are kickboxers, our guys are split between doing kenpo like it's wing chun, or just glomming on to people like a wrestler; because, some of those guys see life through grappling. LOL Some are a TKD Blend, and some are just plain terrible.

 

[Bigsarg]

well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then. i dont doubt what your saying. i just dont have the experience to form another opinion. but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.
i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi, but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.

Let us know how your search went.
Yes kenpo trains to move without cognitive thought (unconsciously as you said)

We lean the "what if concept": what if he does not bend over from that strike, what do you do?

As you are going up the ranks and get more techniques that you can choose from to continue the what if concept, This is the LOGICAL part of action.

So your opponent is standing and not bent forward. Your body is positioned in such away to your opponent's. There will be many techniques that will place you in a very similar position to your opponent's body. This is the SEQUENTIAL part of action.

The other systems I studied never did the "what if concept." So their techniques do not blend together. They simply say if he doesn't bend forward then you do this technique. Almost always having to retreat to start a new. Even in Aikido. "What if" he doesn't do this or that and the technique does not create the reaction you want, you have no continuation. Retreat and start a new.

That is why I do not teach Taekwondo or Akido.

I do however use a lot of things from those arts in my kenpo to make it more effective, in my opinion.

But I teach the way I was taught, and I also test them on the material as I was taught. After a student has passed his, say Orange belt test. I then teach the different ways I have incorporated other arts into the techniques. Not just go over but teach and I award a stripe when they have mastered those techniques. Then it is back to pure(not the best word to use) Kenpo. In this case the way I was taught for Purple belt.

Now my students are free to teach both techniques or choose one. They do not have to teach the way they were taught.

I believe this is what the evolution of Kenpo is. Now my students are free to evolve Kenpo as they see fit.

I have visited a school that one of my Black belts runs and helped test a Green belt. He tested on both pure Kenpo and the variations of the technique that I had taught his instructor. I thought that this was odd but again. It is his Kenpo. I did not ask why he decided to teach and test this way. However, he did tell me over a beer one night on his own.

I know my replies are lengthy. I'm glad this is not twitter. lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The other systems I studied never did the "what if concept." So their techniques do not blend together. They simply say if he doesn't bend forward then you do this technique. Almost always having to retreat to start a new. Even in Aikido. "What if" he doesn't do this or that and the technique does not create the reaction you want, you have no continuation. Retreat and start a new.

A system doesn't have to do that. That's an instructor's job. You can do that with any system that has answers to the different responses.

 

[Bigsarg]

T

A system doesn't have to do that. That's an instructor's job. You can do that with any system that has answers to the different responses.

this is very true. Like I said these other systems would start a new, many times retreating to do so. Not a logical progression of the original technique. They simply do not use their techniques broken up to assist other techniques. The sequential flow of action that Kenpo had taught me

 

[Gerry Seymour]

T

this is very true. Like I said these other systems would start a new, many times retreating to do so. Not a logical progression of the original technique. They simply do not use their techniques broken up to assist other techniques. The sequential flow of action that Kenpo had taught me

My point is that this is a teaching style. You learned it in Kenpo, and it can be applied to any system. I use this same approach, and have seen Aikido instructors do the same (of course, like you, I've seen Aikido instructors who did not).

 

[Touch Of Death]

Just a general question, do you guys consider Kenpo and Kempo as the same thing?

Here in Europe we generally do.

Yes, but not really.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, but not really.

Clearly they are different. One has more humps.

 

[Bigsarg]

Just a general question, do you guys consider Kenpo and Kempo as the same thing?

You pronounce Kenpo "Kempo"
I've never looked into the art Kempo

 

[Touch Of Death]

Kem or Ken, means China, and Po, means, Laws, or better said Parameters Defined. (by the Chinese Kung fu Masters)

 

[Bigsarg]

We pronounce Kenpo "Kempo" that's how I was taught in the beginning.
I've never ran into a school that spelled it with an M

 

[hoshin1600]

The thing is, here in Holland Ed Parker's Kenpo isn't that popular.

Here we have alot of Shaolin Kempo from Carl Faulhaber and Gerard Meijers.

if you are referring to the shaolin kempo of carl Faulhaber, it has totally nothing to do with the kenpo and kempo of that here in America.
from what i understand Carl created a style mixing japanese karate and silat and named it Shaolin kempo. this shaolin kempo was created in the Netherlands.

in the united states Fred Villari studied Ed Parkers kenpo under Nick Cerio and renamed it Shaolin Kempo. so in the states when someone says kempo they usually mean this branch. however there is also another style called Okinawan Kempo which again has nothing to do with the others.

 

[Flying Crane]

if you are referring to the shaolin kempo of carl Faulhaber, it has totally nothing to do with the kenpo and kempo of that here in America.
from what i understand Carl created a style mixing japanese karate and silat and named it Shaolin kempo. this shaolin kempo was created in the Netherlands.

in the united states Fred Villari studied Ed Parkers kenpo under Nick Cerio and renamed it Shaolin Kempo. so in the states when someone says kempo they usually mean this branch. however there is also another style called Okinawan Kempo which again has nothing to do with the others.

And there is also Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, distinct from Vallari, and from lineage traced to William Chow.