Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
I think you have this upside down. The theory is you get on top of someone and let the bottom guy flail around until they are worn out. Then you pound their face into the ground, choke them out, or break their arm.
Kenpo on the ground- part 2
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
I think you have this upside down. The theory is you get on top of someone and let the bottom guy flail around until they are worn out. Then you pound their face into the ground, choke them out, or break their arm.
I was originally gonna start another thread, but I think I'll just add this right into this one. A funny thing happened the other day while I was grappling. I was grappling with a friend who also has a background in Kenpo. We were going over some mount escapes, against a 2 handed choke. Pretty much, the 2 moves that he did looked very similar to crossing talon and mace of aggression. We went over this a few times, and I was sitting there thinking to myself, "Wow, here's 2 Kenpo techs. that I found right in a mount escape. Now, I know that this will sound strange to some, due to the fact that I'm a big fan of grappling and crosstraining, and also saying that its not in there. However, I think after sitting down and really looking at some of the techs. there are many that can fit right into the ground game. I think one of the problems is, is that the grapplers, myself included, are just looking at escapes strictly from a grapplers POV.
Granted, the tech. that we did from the mount, were not textbook crossing talon and mace of aggression, but there were moves that were very similar.
Hope that this clears some things up a little!
Mike
Granted, the tech. that we did from the mount, were not textbook crossing talon and mace of aggression, but there were moves that were very similar.
Hope that this clears some things up a little!
Mike
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Mike: I think you've been talking to Clyde too much. :boing2:
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
I've only talked to him twice and it always seems that I have a better understanding of the art after the chat is over. Hmm....if only I had called him sooner, maybe the Kenpo/BJJ debate would not have gone on for soooooo long and the fighting would have been ALOT less, and maybe I'd have a better understanding of the art.
As far as my 'discovery' goes..LOL...my training partner and I came up with that on our own. I did mention it to Clyde and I got the response that I thought I would!!
Mike
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
The force in this one will soon be greater than expected OB wonMJS said:
Dark Lord
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
And you haven't talked to him enough LOLOld Fat Kenpoka said:
Dark Lord
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
This is an issue that every Kenpoist and Grappler should address. Seems your epiphanies are the innovation that others may be seeking for enlightenment.MJS said:
Dark Lord
I saw that this thread started to die out, so I thought I'd stir the pot a little. Not sure if its in the stores yet, but I just got the May 2004 issue of Black Belt. Interesting article in it called, "Grappling Strategies Every Striker Needs To Know" It talks about many different things, but it does mention something that I, as well as OFK and some of the other ground advocates. It says 3 things that you should focus on.
1- Avoiding a takedown
2- Escaping from the ground.
3- Striking from the ground.
It goes on to say that if you want to succeed in doing this, then you need to train with a grappler!!!!! It goes on to show examples of what you can do, as well as an interview with Erik Paulson, who if you dont know, is an outstanding grappler.
Anyway, I thought that it was pretty interesting. I actually laughed to myself when reading the article thinking, "Wow, this is exactly the same thing that I've been saying for soooo long."
Mike
1- Avoiding a takedown
2- Escaping from the ground.
3- Striking from the ground.
It goes on to say that if you want to succeed in doing this, then you need to train with a grappler!!!!! It goes on to show examples of what you can do, as well as an interview with Erik Paulson, who if you dont know, is an outstanding grappler.
Anyway, I thought that it was pretty interesting. I actually laughed to myself when reading the article thinking, "Wow, this is exactly the same thing that I've been saying for soooo long."
Mike
MJS said:
What's there to say. It seems that there will be people that will never agree on this subject.
I wrote a short example of how our system deals with grappling techs on another forum. John McSweeney started us on the road to this as he was teaching this before the MMA craze.
3- Striking from the ground. - That is something that is completely different from stiking while standing. Fully extending a punch for example can put you in a bad situation. But if done properly, will help open up some opportunities that may not be readily available. But unless you strike a vital targer, such as eyes and throat, you will not disable your attacker, just enrage them. Also the old idea that going to the eyes when on the ground will work every time is a myth, as proficient grapplers know how to avoid such tactics.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I had a thought. Incorporating grappling 101 into kenpo as an "elective course" running parallel to about green-3rd brown, starting out by giving common grappling trainiing drills/sequences kenpo-sounding names. The the terminology brainiacs can figure out which kenpo terminologies apply to what moves.
Along the idea that certain things in kenpo are given their own codes...
Training sequences that end in a choke = "heaven", because of the sense of one coming to consciousness from a carotid choke that they were just part of a really important conversation, but can't remember what it was.
So, at the risk of possibly sounding sillier than something like "squeezing the peach", "heart of heaven" would be to mount someone, use the chest to pressure their elbow accross their body to turn them prone (the heart part), then choke them till they turn blue (the 'heaven' part).
Along the idea that certain things in kenpo are given their own codes...
Training sequences that end in a choke = "heaven", because of the sense of one coming to consciousness from a carotid choke that they were just part of a really important conversation, but can't remember what it was.
So, at the risk of possibly sounding sillier than something like "squeezing the peach", "heart of heaven" would be to mount someone, use the chest to pressure their elbow accross their body to turn them prone (the heart part), then choke them till they turn blue (the 'heaven' part).
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Mike, thanks for reviving one of my favorite threads.
Zoran, thanks for adding your enlightened perspective.
When I first started Kenpo in 1973, in 6th grade, no school kid would ever ever ever kick in a school yard fight. You could box, and you could wrestle. You could knock a kid down, mount him, and punch him. But, if you kicked, you were fighting dirty and the spectators would join against you. I kicked a guy in my 7th grade science class who took a swing at me. Knocked the wind out of him. Boy did I get in trouble!
Over the next 20 years, Karate, Kung Fu, and then TKD schools became common. When I last looked at the statistics 10 years ago, 1-million Americans were actively training in Martial Arts and 9-million had trained at some point in their lifetime. I would expect that the number is double that now. Kicking is no longer fighting dirty. It is something you can reasonably expect to see and do in a school yard or street fight.
In the early 90's, the Gracie family started the UFC. Grappling gained new respect. High-school and college wrestlers and Judoka came out of hiding. Lots of people started training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In the late 90's a sheik from Abu Dhabi started an international submission wrestling competition. Grappling without a gi started to become popular even for those not interested in MMA. Kids are starting to do submission grappling. Soon, our kids will be doing suplexes and ending school yard fights with triangles and rear naked chokes instead of with lunge kicks. It's only a matter of time. If you don't believe me, send me an e-mail and I'll send you a highlight clip from a local tournament with little kids grappling.
So what is Kenpo's answer to all of this. Of course, Kenpo being what it is, has many answers. One answer is to embrace the march of time and add grappling programs at Kenpo schools. Another similar answer is to incorporate grappling techniques into a modified Kenpo curriculum. A final answer, one that I feel won't stand the test of time, is to keeep Kenpo as it was 20 or 30 years ago and ignore the rising popularity of grappling.
Zoran, thanks for adding your enlightened perspective.
When I first started Kenpo in 1973, in 6th grade, no school kid would ever ever ever kick in a school yard fight. You could box, and you could wrestle. You could knock a kid down, mount him, and punch him. But, if you kicked, you were fighting dirty and the spectators would join against you. I kicked a guy in my 7th grade science class who took a swing at me. Knocked the wind out of him. Boy did I get in trouble!
Over the next 20 years, Karate, Kung Fu, and then TKD schools became common. When I last looked at the statistics 10 years ago, 1-million Americans were actively training in Martial Arts and 9-million had trained at some point in their lifetime. I would expect that the number is double that now. Kicking is no longer fighting dirty. It is something you can reasonably expect to see and do in a school yard or street fight.
In the early 90's, the Gracie family started the UFC. Grappling gained new respect. High-school and college wrestlers and Judoka came out of hiding. Lots of people started training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In the late 90's a sheik from Abu Dhabi started an international submission wrestling competition. Grappling without a gi started to become popular even for those not interested in MMA. Kids are starting to do submission grappling. Soon, our kids will be doing suplexes and ending school yard fights with triangles and rear naked chokes instead of with lunge kicks. It's only a matter of time. If you don't believe me, send me an e-mail and I'll send you a highlight clip from a local tournament with little kids grappling.
So what is Kenpo's answer to all of this. Of course, Kenpo being what it is, has many answers. One answer is to embrace the march of time and add grappling programs at Kenpo schools. Another similar answer is to incorporate grappling techniques into a modified Kenpo curriculum. A final answer, one that I feel won't stand the test of time, is to keeep Kenpo as it was 20 or 30 years ago and ignore the rising popularity of grappling.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Some of the old Vale Tudo guys -- who had a running feud with the Gracies in Brazil -- have already worked out some pretty good blows from the ground, both from superior positions, and from inferior positions. Granted, from an inferior positiion you might just piss off a guy who's set to pummel you horribly, but maybe you can at least get some licks in.
Combining kenpo w/ BJJ? Easy. Go knee-up on a guy...as mentioned earlier, similar in position to a close, deep or wide kneel, depending on how you play it...then start working him with your kenpo combinations from a stooped position. Transitionally shift your weight off the rear foot, and stomp the face or head with it, pinning it btw your Docs and the concrete, then like a snap kick, quickly return it to position on the ground behind you. Positional secondary striking = lift your knee of the chest ever so slightly for a split second, then let it drop down again with all oyur weight. Bounce on the guys rib cage doing this over and over, and when he raises the upper part of his torso towards you (up from the ground), stoop down a little further and plant a hard inward elbow from the same side you're kneeling on him.
Old kenpo used to be called "grab and beat karate". Lends itself well to striking from the mounted position (circling hammerfists, inward-outward-&-upward elbows, chopping hooks, smothering punches).
Avoiding the skilled shoot is the hard part, because the grappler doesn't even have to be a skilled thrower. We used to grapple judo guys, and let them be responsible for the take down: they would latch on to us and throw us, and we'd just hand on for the ride and drag them down with.
For shooting drills, used to take a heavy bag with the rings stripped off, stand it up, and practice (repeatedly) dropping in low for variotions of the approach on a sinbgle-leg or double-leg take-down from wrestling. Also used to practice hooking each leg from various angles around the bag to assist the TD. Practiced sprawls, as well as sprawl counters. I used to cheat in "no hitting" matches, by using glancing blows to pressure points and neuro-vascular bundles on the way to positions from the shoot or during it. Ain't that a kenpo principle?
Train hard and conquer,
D.
Combining kenpo w/ BJJ? Easy. Go knee-up on a guy...as mentioned earlier, similar in position to a close, deep or wide kneel, depending on how you play it...then start working him with your kenpo combinations from a stooped position. Transitionally shift your weight off the rear foot, and stomp the face or head with it, pinning it btw your Docs and the concrete, then like a snap kick, quickly return it to position on the ground behind you. Positional secondary striking = lift your knee of the chest ever so slightly for a split second, then let it drop down again with all oyur weight. Bounce on the guys rib cage doing this over and over, and when he raises the upper part of his torso towards you (up from the ground), stoop down a little further and plant a hard inward elbow from the same side you're kneeling on him.
Old kenpo used to be called "grab and beat karate". Lends itself well to striking from the mounted position (circling hammerfists, inward-outward-&-upward elbows, chopping hooks, smothering punches).
Avoiding the skilled shoot is the hard part, because the grappler doesn't even have to be a skilled thrower. We used to grapple judo guys, and let them be responsible for the take down: they would latch on to us and throw us, and we'd just hand on for the ride and drag them down with.
For shooting drills, used to take a heavy bag with the rings stripped off, stand it up, and practice (repeatedly) dropping in low for variotions of the approach on a sinbgle-leg or double-leg take-down from wrestling. Also used to practice hooking each leg from various angles around the bag to assist the TD. Practiced sprawls, as well as sprawl counters. I used to cheat in "no hitting" matches, by using glancing blows to pressure points and neuro-vascular bundles on the way to positions from the shoot or during it. Ain't that a kenpo principle?
Train hard and conquer,
D.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Here is the link to the kids highlight video I mentioned above from OnTheMat.com.
http://www.onthemat.com/Images/paininc/painfeb04/pain04_kids.mov
This was from the Pain, Inc. regional tournament on Feb 21, 2004 in Capitola, CA. Here is the article about the tournament.
http://www.onthemat.com/painin04.html
http://www.onthemat.com/Images/paininc/painfeb04/pain04_kids.mov
This was from the Pain, Inc. regional tournament on Feb 21, 2004 in Capitola, CA. Here is the article about the tournament.
http://www.onthemat.com/painin04.html
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Awesome...couldn't agree with you more. "Kenpo traditionalists" (an oxymoron) run the risk of making kenpo ther next TKD...outdated, outmoded, and absolutely useless in the street.Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
This is essential if we are to keep up with the times. As long as you address it, you are moving forward. Believing your system doesn't need to address it, will leave you in the dust. For example, my instructor is not a ground fighting expert, and as he's in his mid 60's will probably never be one. However, he does realize the need for it so he takes advantage of outside sources and his black belts to help incorporate it into the system. We have some very good people now in that department, like Keith Hackney who runs his own MMA school.
One thing to keep your thoughts on is that ground fighting, for the most part, is a form of sparring. Try to focus on what would be the best for self defense on the street. While staying on the ground and trying to get a submission is a good training tool, it should not be the focus of ones training. Fighting from the ground can get you in a lot of trouble in the real world (getting kicked in the head by someone else for example). Also, it can require a large amount of time to get someone in a submission hold and for it to take effect. I usually have a personal 5 second rule. If it takes longer than that, then there is something wrong and I need to re-evaluate my methods.
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