Kenpo in the 21st Century

[rmcrobertson]

I find the first two notes about what won't work/should never be done really interesting, inasmuch as some of their applications are specifically meant to work against people on the ground, or people trying to dump you on the ground.

Those twist stances--among other things--are the way they are, in part, in case you're standing over somebody. They cut off lines of access to the groin; a rotating twist can be used to attack a limb, or the neck, or the ribcage, or the collarbone, or...

As for Leaping Crane, the tech teaches beginners a different way to get the head and upper body out of the line of an attack. With the ending to Dance of Death added on, the stance also teaches to get your foot out of the arc that can be described by the arm or leg of somebody on the ground.

And all of these applications (there are others) are central to one of those "useless," forms, Long 5. One of whose major themes is takedowns, and dealing with opponents on the ground.

As for a) that "overhead cross block," well, you didn't make your objection clear--is it that your arms'll get busted? or is it that the club will whip over the block and smite thy tender skull? Uh...if so, sorry but I was taught not to stand directly under any raining-down long, heavy object...and 45 angles/deflections help...b) as for Triggered salute/the two-mans, well, I don't see a statement of a specific objection in either case...c) the gun techs never rely on grabbing the cylinder/hammer so ya donts get shot in yer favroite organ or limb or head...they rely on getting out of line with that hole in the end of the boomstick, and staying out of line with it..any grabbing is only taught as a possibility...d) all the knife techs include the possibility of recoil/backcutting, the way I was taught them...and in point of fact, bringing off a tech like Entwined Lance actually relies on the idea of backcutting, on the attacker's pulling the knife back reflexively...and, I might add, I have again and again and again seen (and felt, to be sure) Mr. Tatum and Clyde making the point that the guy with the knife can, and will, cut you as they pull the knife back..and, I might add, it's a point Mr. Tatum makes again and again on the self-defense tech tapes.

As for the thing about the disruptiveness of some attacks, well, I dunno. I teach it, as I was taught it...in fact, I taught this in group Saturday before last, and nearly got my head snapped off by some thirteen-year-old I egged into doing the push attack correctly for Encounter With Danger...and again, techs such as Grasp/Grip of Death positively rely on your being yanked off balance...it's a big reason close kneels are in the kenpo language...

But now we're talkin'! Thanks.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

here's some vertical grappling done by one of Kenpo's best, the master of Forced Yoga, David German.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Yes KKBB it is foolish to prepare yourself for every possible threat.

By your logic, you should not be a Kenpo practitioner because you would be foolish to memorize 600 techniques and variations (Tracy's) or the 250 techniques and extensions (EPAK).

By my logic, it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions.

As far as getting Kenpo guys to run scared, I don't think anybody here or elsewhere is trying to scare anybody. I certainly am not. I don't think the Kenpoists learning BJJ and posting here are trying to scare anyone. I do think that we are trying to have a lively discussion about an important trend in MA -- the ressurgence of grappling -- and a lively discussion about potential directions for Kenpo in light on the latest MA (or MMA) thinking.

In my non-MA life, I work in High-tech Marketing. I have many friends who are engineers. We are always looking for new trends and technologies. We don't want to get left behind. We want to continually improve our skills and help our employers be more successful (so we can stay employed). I am not an early adopter. I watch new technologies but don't adopt them until they are proven. No company and no employee wants to get left behind with old skills and technologies. Why should Kenpo practice be different from business and technology? Aren't both about knowledge, improvement, growth, competition?

I remember going to tournaments in the 70's and 80's and seeing top-ranked competitors do new techniques in Kata, Kumite, and Self-Defense-demonstration divisions. We'd take the techniques back and try-em. If they worked, we'd keep 'em. If they didn't, we didn't. To me, the early UFC and NHB competition are like tournaments 15 and 30 years ago. We had a chance to see different techniques and how they worked against each other. A lot of people started to learn BJJ because of the early UFC's. Eventually, Kickboxers started to learn enough BJJ to defend themselves and enough stand-up grappling so that they couldn't get taken down and could continue to kickbox. Now, many kickboxers can defend against a takedown and defend themselves on the ground so that they can stay on their feet and do what they do best. Shouldn't Kenpo people be doing the same? Shouldn't we learn from these top-ranked competitors?

 

[Michael Billings]

Just for those who did not know ... LIKE ME!

Shibboleths: Mysteries of Computer-Speak

"A shibboleth is defined as "a use of language regarded as distinctive of a particular group."

In the meantime, I strongly agree with Robert and unusually enough, Clyde ... just kidding, we agree more than we don't. There is something lacking in understanding the complete art if you are disregarding as "Useless" the Principles, Concepts, or Theories inherent in the techniques you were referencing. I think they are practical, applicable, and useful, in the original or modified states.

Talk to any Ba Gua fighter and all you find are twist stances. Stepping off line, rotational torque, etc. are essential components of Kenpo also.

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
By my logic, it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions.

See, this is my point....
What you are saying is... if I am reading you correctly is....that in all of those techniques...not one addressess (directly or indirectly) the situtations that you make reference to? I'll bet there is at least a couple. I think you missed the point of my post.

So learning more and then adding more to Kenpo will solve this problem?

I think the answer is learn more, ok. Nobody is suggesting anything less... but add more....no.
Use the tools you have, stay the course, fads will come and go, but tried and proven techniques will always prevail. I would much rather fight my fight than fight theirs.

Let me say again: Kenpo should evolve.... it is meant to evolve.... but not "dissolve" :asian:

 

[Fastmover]

"I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling."


Robert,

Well lets see I havnt seen were anyone else has mentioned Angles Of Cancellation so I assume you are refering to me. It would help if you identify who you are refering to. NEVER did I say that there is no ground work within Kenpo. Maybe your misunderstanding me so let me try and clear it up. There are NO formal ground techniques within EPAK; however, the concepts, principles, and theories of Kenpo can be applied on the ground.

Maybe you would like to share which techniques you are doing on the ground?

Also you and Clyde seem to imply that since everyone is doing something different, then they must be doing the material wrong. I hope that this is not what your elluding to because that would be pretty arrogant on your part. Clyde if Im not mistaken your old instructor is Vic Laroux and since he and Mr. Sullivan developed the IKCA, they do things pretty different compared to traditional EPAK. Are they doing Kenpo wrong as well?

Robert, lets explore something that you yourself brought up. You mentioned knife defenses and their abilty to defend against the back cut, yet no were within Mr. Parkers manuals does it speak about the back cut. In fact Mr Parkers books speak very little about knife fighting. Point is it may not be within the books of Kenpo but for some reason it has found its way within your Kenpo? The FMA guys have been doing back cuts for many many years. You dont think that you could learn ANYTHING from these FMA about back cuts?

Since I am speaking about the many terms found in the Parker Encyclopedia, were did these terms come from? Did Parker get all these from his instructor or did he and his students develope these through the years?

This whole thing really cracks me up to be honest, I heard for years from other Kenpoist that since Mr. Parker changed the system, he was doing it wrong and the terms were just a bunch of fancy vocabulary. This was done in Parkers day so it doesnt surprise me now that its being done today.

I believe the whole point to this whole string was were Kenpo will go into the future. Its obvious that we have different ideas about this so thank goodness we all have an instructor and/or association that is taloired to our own needs. Honestly Mr. Parker pointed many of his students in different directions and they will pass on these ideas to the generations to come. AND they will continue to agrue over who is doing Kenpo correctly.

John

 

[rmcrobertson]

"...it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions."

Could you please give examples of these omissions? Specific ones? Because once again, here's my problem: some of us keep mentioning, "common...takedowns," at least, and this info keeps getting ignored.

I might also note that while I agree with your general point, I suppose, there are lots of attacks for which specific antidotes aren't spelled out in the curriculum. This doesn't mean they ain't there. If we're going to draw analogies, how 'bout this one: no language includes sentences addressing every situation. It would be impossible; moreover, it would be impossible to keep adding utterances until everything was covered.

What you're missing is that kenpo wasn't designed to be a dictionary. it was designed to be what Noam Chomsky called a, "generative grammar," which is something very different.

Second, progress is not our most important product here, I don't think. But I was happy to see confirmation of my general theory that some of these demands for "evolution," and "modernization," are driven by ideology, not by practicality as such. And since Darwin was wrong about stuff--like the notion of evolution as a smooth, upward progress--it's best not to simply adopt his terminology.

By the way, I'm just askin'.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: again, you make excellent points.

Kenpo has several great techniques to defend against takedown attempts BEFORE the attacker has grabbed your legs or broken your balance. The problem is what to do AFTER you've missed your opportunity as might happen when you are defending against multiple attackers or if your single attacker quickly switches from a strong striking attack at face level to a dive at your knees...These attacks have simple names like double-leg takedown, single-led head-inside takedown, single-leg head-outside takedown, and not so simple names like inner-reap throw, etc. Kenpo has checks and traps to keep your attacker from striking you AFTER you've blocked their first attack. Why not specific defenses against takedowns and ground positions as well? If Kenpo changes in the 21st century, isn't this a valid direction?

P.S. to Robert: Thank g_d Kenpo terminology comes from Ed Parker and not Noam Chomsky!

KKBB: Agreed, I'd much rather fight my fight than fight theirs. That's why I want to learn to defend myself against their techniques.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
"Also you and Clyde seem to imply that since everyone is doing something different, then they must be doing the material wrong. I hope that this is not what your elluding to because that would be pretty arrogant on your part. Clyde if Im not mistaken your old instructor is Vic Laroux and since he and Mr. Sullivan developed the IKCA, they do things pretty different compared to traditional EPAK. Are they doing Kenpo wrong as well?

This whole thing really cracks me up to be honest, I heard for years from other Kenpoist that since Mr. Parker changed the system, he was doing it wrong and the terms were just a bunch of fancy vocabulary. This was done in Parkers day so it doesnt surprise me now that its being done today.

I believe the whole point to this whole string was were Kenpo will go into the future. Its obvious that we have different ideas about this so thank goodness we all have an instructor and/or association that is taloired to our own needs. Honestly Mr. Parker pointed many of his students in different directions and they will pass on these ideas to the generations to come. AND they will continue to agrue over who is doing Kenpo correctly.

John

Yes, my old instructor and my first introduction to Kenpo came from Vic LeRoux. I'm happy I made the change to Larry because he truly opened my eyes to what Kenpo is and what it can be. I can't say the same for the IKCA. I believe their methods are antiquated and unuseful for me. I posted a pic of David German, one of my favorite Kenpo guys, but I'm partial to him as he's already turned me into a pretzel more than once, and will do so again hopefully in the near future. If you've never had the oppurtunity to work with the man I would highly recommend it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

Hey Clyde,

You always speak about great conviction about The Tatum Crew and Im glad you have a place that fulfills your needs. Let me ask you, do you feel that the sequences of Kenpo could be changed and still comply with the principles of Kenpo? Mr. Sullivan trained with Mr. Parker for many years so how is it that he could be doing something so antiquated? Maybe he is doing something different in that he has found a way to better introduce the priciples of Kenpo?? I dont train nor have I ever worked with anyone from that group, I was just using them as an example because they do things differently. Please hold the attacks, Im not trying to single anyone out.

Its odd that their are so many Parker Black Belts who trained with the same instructor, have different ideas about the best way to teach the principles of Kenpo. Many have forged their own path such as Chuck Sullivan, Ron Chapel, Paul Mills and Mike Pick to name a few. People are going to follow their own convictions and do what they feel best. I have a hard time believing that all these individuals are wrong just because they are different.

I first started in the Tracy's system back in the early 80's, personally I dont feel that system is for me but I know it is for some. I know some Tracy's Kenpoist that are damn good fighters!!!

By the way do you have a web sight address for David German?

Be Good,

John

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Hey Clyde,

You always speak about great conviction about The Tatum Crew and Im glad you have a place that fulfills your needs. Let me ask you, do you feel that the sequences of Kenpo could be changed and still comply with the principles of Kenpo? Mr. Sullivan trained with Mr. Parker for many years so how is it that he could be doing something so antiquated? Maybe he is doing something different in that he has found a way to better introduce the priciples of Kenpo?? I dont train nor have I ever worked with anyone from that group, I was just using them as an example because they do things differently. Please hold the attacks, Im not trying to single anyone out.

Its odd that their are so many Parker Black Belts who trained with the same instructor, have different ideas about the best way to teach the principles of Kenpo. Many have forged their own path such as Chuck Sullivan, Ron Chapel, Paul Mills and Mike Pick to name a few. People are going to follow their own convictions and do what they feel best. I have a hard time believing that all these individuals are wrong just because they are different.

I first started in the Tracy's system back in the early 80's, personally I dont feel that system is for me but I know it is for some. I know some Tracy's Kenpoist that are damn good fighters!!!

By the way do you have a web sight address for David German?

Be Good,

John

I can't find David's website right now but I'll keep looking.

When I was with Vic I never learned Long 2, Long 4, Long 5, Long 6, and only about 1/3 of the techniques that I do now. I used to feel so out of place at the West LA studio when he took me down there cuz I was the only Brown Belt that didn't know it. In fact, I learned the forms off video shortly before going to Larry's. Vic and Chuck do their own thing, and it makes them happy, good for them. BTW, read my post on the Kenponet entitled Mr. Parker taught me that.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Look, I may just be repeating myself, but I still don't see answers. I see the repetition of shibboleths.

For example, I still want to know where it all ends. After BJJ, what? Apparently, Modern Arnis and Phillippine knives. Then what? An infinity of things can happen, "on the street," sure--are we supposed to endlessly prepare for all of them? And why the concept of endless threat?

I still want a specific example of a "tech..that will probably get you killed on the street."

I have trouble with the notion that NHB events were some big wake-up call. In the first place, judo and Gene LeBell were around long before...in the second, guess what I learned from the so-called NHB events? Don't get in a cage with some big guy who likes to fight, is in better shape than you can ever be (unless you drop everything else in your life), and is almost certainly more physically-talented than you are. (And just incidentally--everybody knows that professional fighters almost always pay a horrific physical price later in life, right?)

I still want to know how you go about teaching students. Just tell them, well, go here, go here and go here?

I still want to understand the logic of eliminating all sorts of stuff from kenpo, then saying that there's stuff missing from kenpo.

I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling.

And just to open up a real can of worms--sometimes techniques aren't getting taught "differently," which is not what "tailoring," meant anyway. Sometimes, they're getting taught wrong.

Sorry, guys. Maybe I'm just thick today.

Ok, first, NHB is closer to what a real fight is going to be like, not point sparring where you can't kick to the legs, hit to the back, etc. If people don't train for realism, then when you get into a fight on the street you will get you a** kicked!! There is no ref on the street to prevent someone from kicking you in the leg. There is always someone bigger and better than you, but I guess you dont think so.

2 tech come to mind that I think will not work on the street--1- scrapping hoof. If someone is attempting to put their arms around you, why raise you arms to aid them?? Instead, you should immediately bring your arms to your side to prevent them from finishing the grab. Have you ever been in a real full nelson?? A friend of mine that is a wrestler put me in one and I thought my neck was going to break. The 2nd one is Striking Serpents Head. Do you really think that in a real fight, the guy is going to stand there and hug you? Hell no, he is going to be getting ready to slam you to the ground...hense the importance of grappling.

As far as the ground game goes. If you think that you will never get taken down or will be able to really defend yourself against a wrestler or grappler, then fine. I would love to be able to prove this to you in a sparring match. I assure you, you WILL end up on the ground!! Maybe you should try sparring with a grappler. Maybe then your eyes will be opened!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by kkbb
IMHO...

To prepare one's self for every single possible threat is foolish. You cannot possibly practice and train for "all" threats. Those who go outside their art "looking to fill holes" in my mind are doing just that.

Looking to "add" to your art or "round out your training" from outside scources, to solve percieved deficiencies, is like adding a shovel of dirt to the Grand Canyon. You just keep throwing more in and it is never full. It will never be full.

The BJJ guys are probabley sitting around saying to themselves (or outloud) " Man we have these kenpo guys running scared"

Instead of vast amounts of time learning BJJ, we should be learining and using Kenpo techniques to negate and counter these attatcks, not add them to our artillary.

Most if not all arts have everything that is needed to fill voids. Kenpo is no exception.

EPAK should evolve.... it is meant to evolve.... but not "dissolve"

In my opinion, the changes that are needed (if any) will only come when one strong leader emerges.

Maybe closer study into what Mr. Parker was going to do with the system may be needed.

Training for all threats?? Maybe you should re-read some of the posts. I said, you will never be able to prepare for every threat, but by not training in realistic knife defenses, you will be in for a surprise if you get attacked. Compare Kenpo knife training to that of Filipino knife.. a BIG difference! I have no idea why some people are so against cross training! Maybe instead of being so closed minded, you should give it a try. If a system does not address something, do you not think that it is something that you should look into as to why it is like that? I am NOT saying devote 20 yrs into another art, but by taking some of the ideas and concepts and adding them to the Kenpo to make it better is a good start. Bruce Lee did this with JKD. Are you going to sit there and tell me that his art is no good? He took from many arts, and JKD is probably one of the most complete arts that I have seen.

You talk about a leader. OK. When Parker was alive, everybody was under his umbrella. When he died, people broke off and formed many different orgs. There will never be 1 person to take control, because now that they have been one their own, they want to continue to do things their way. Maybe you should talk to your Inst. and ask him/her their opinion.

MIke

 

[MJS]

In regards to teaching students. I explain the tech. what the attack is, and then go into the tech. I make sure that they do it slowly at first, and then build up speed. I start attacking them slowly and then gradually build up to a faster, harder strike. I have them perform the tech. many times to hopefully ensure that they have a good grasp of it. I then go it the "What Ifs" of the tech. and give them various examples of the many different things that can happen. I tell them to use the tech as a learning tool and to expand on it themselves, having them try to come up with different things that they might come across while doing the tech.

One thing to remember also, in regards to things that won't work. Like it was said in a previous post, many of the mult. attacker tech. dont seem realistic. This is not a Van Dam movie where he fights 10 guys and they all come at him at one time. You will have 2 or 3 people coming at you at once and from different angles. They will not be static like the attacks in some of the Kenpo techs.

Not sure if this was what you were looking for in regards to teaching students. Teaching is something that not everybody can do. Some people are good fighters and bad teachers, etc. It is something that wil take time, because you have to have an understanding of the tech. because the students will always be trying to challenge you with their questions.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Going in reverse order: my eyes are already open. They just see different things than you do. For example, I see my own vulnerability....and could offer a thousand examples of attackers and attacks you'd be just as unprepared for as you think I'd be unprepared against a grappler.

So far, every time I've been in--or witnessed--a physical confrontation over the last forty years, I have never seen any time that the thing went to the ground. I've never seen a time when it LOOKED like it was going to the ground--every single person who threatened, has clearly been thinking up high. Oh wait--one exception--I saw about seven guys chase somebody into a parking lot, knock him down, and start kicking. I broke that one up by running at them from about fifty yards away, yelling, "Cops! Call the cops," and they thought that I was a cop and ran off.

You have different experiences, I guess. OK, fine. And for reasons I've previously mentioned, this has nothing to do with my point.

Second, Striking Serpent's Head. Hm. I was taught this as a defense against a bearhug, sure, but with the attacker attampting to blow right through you and knock you back and down. About six months ago, I was going over the extension with one of my students--he was eleven at the time--and Clyde came over to remind us both about the, "bracing angle," concept, knocking TJ back and down. If you look at the extension, it is particularly predicated upon a takedown--or more accurately, a strikedown. And one hint...before the whipping backkuckle to the opposite side of the punim (the "striking serpent's head," of the name), insert a right inward forearm upside the head as you step back. It has a remarkable effect upon their willingness to keep pushing forward.

A "real full nelson?" Yes, I have. While I was learning Scraping Hooves, Repeated Devastation, and Twirling Sacrifice, the three stages of such an attack. Why do the arms go up in SH? because they've started to set the hold, bringing the arms up. And again--if you look at the tech's extension, it specifically attacks the legs as the attacker continues to grab.

As for NHB being "closer to a real fight on the street," well first--a cheap shot--will there be a cage wherever I go? Last two times I came very close to getting into it, the fiorst time I realized I was in a car and I drove away. The second time I backed up, two steps, and the guy blustered a bit and then left.

Let me write this AGAIN. I do not consider myself a great fighter. I do not consider myself invulnerable to all attacks. I do not consider myself the grappling equal of a Gracie black belt, 'course not. It's not what I'm arguing.

Thanks,
Robert

PS, for MJS--sure, but do you teach students WHY they're doing what they're doing? do you teach them about the checking system? about height, width, depth?

Thanks too, R.

 

[MJS]

Ok, now I'll go in order from top to bottom. I never once said that I was an unbeatable fighter either. Yes, there are many attacks out there that I have not encountered. Nobody is unbeatable. My point I was trying to make, was, no, you will never be 100% prepared, but you can at least try to be.

Going to the ground. Thats funny. I was just watching the News this morning, and heard about some police officers in one of the larger cities in CT, getting into a foot chase. He was attempting to arrest a drug dealer. Well, when he caught the guy, he of course was not going to just give up. Instead, he struggled and eventually they went to the ground. HHmm, and fights or struggles never go to the groung huh? Imagine trying to arrest somebody, have it go to the ground and have this guy get the upper hand, get your gun from you, and shoot you!

The bearhug. If the guy wants to take you down, he's going to try to trip you to assist in the takedown. When a grappler shoots in, he puts his foot behind yours to prevent any stepping back to regain balance. Not everybody that attempts a bearhug is a world class grappler, but its just something to keep in mind.

Full Nelson. True, the arms are going up, but why continue to bring them up just to get that first hit to the face? Why not, as soon as you feel the arms around you, stopping them long before they get that far?

NHB and fighting in a cage. Not a cheap shot....just the truth. Too much time is spent on point sparring and making sure that you dont hurt your partner, rather than really learning how to fight. Of course, there is not going to be a cage. But, the guy that has a bad case of road rage that day and wants to take your head off, is not going to be dancing around throwing punches. He is going to be like a bull, coming at you with a flurry of things.

Teaching students. Of course. Those things you mentioned are very important. But I want to make sure, especially if I'm teaching a white belt, that they have an understanding of the basic tech. first, and then, I go on to explain the finer points. A new student is going to be nervous enough jsut trying to remember what they are supposed to do, without having to worry about 10 others things. Like I said in my post. After they have an understanding of it, I then go back and explain everything else.

Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

Leave out example of law enforcement as an example of "real fights". Police cannot box a guy or kick him and break their knees, nor can they kick him in the thighs, generally speaking.

For them, BJJ is an excellent compliment to their Kenpo, as they are required to "restrain" a subject, not beat the snot out of them. But in no way is this anything like a standup bar fight or when I worked as a bouncer.

The only fatalities I have seen in law enforcement were gun related shootings ... EXCEPT for excessive use of force when handcuffing. Several deaths have been attributed to a guy suffocating while on his stomach, for various reasons.

The only time I went to the ground, in the real world, was when I was trying to restrain someone, in a "real world" fight, I have stayed on my feet.

Sure, prepare to fight on the ground if you want. BUT QUIT TRYING TO SELL IT AS A "REAL" FIGHT. It may or may not be, and certainly will not be for me unless the goal is to restrain the opponent.

Yours in Kenpo

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Some of the Concepts that should be avoided:

-maneuvering through a twist stance at any point during your self defense (culprit- several of the brown belt techniques).

-the idea of leaping to one leg while blocking an attack and performing an inward strike to whatever target you so chose ( don't want to alienate anyone now..) (take a guess)

-the idea of doing an overhead cross block against an incoming club.

-Triggered salute (the way that most people do it.)

-almost all of the two man defenses (there is no way that a prescribed technique will work against multiple attackers). Everyone argues the point that BJJ doesn't work against multiple attackers, well I'm not too sure that kenpo will PREPARE you to fight multiple attackers either.

-most of the gun techniques, for the simple reason that guns have changed over the last several years. You use to be able grab the cylinder, or stop the firing pin by obstructing the hammer, or even grabbing the slide. None of that will work on a Glock, unless you can jam your finger through the ejection port in the fraction of a second that it's open. Besides this, the barrel tends to fly all around the clock face before the final disarm (not good for any of us)

-How many of the knife defenses take into account the idea of backcutting (using a reverse path of motion)?

-With EP's background in Judo I'm surprised that no one ever questioned the purpose or intent of a grab or hold? Surely the intent of an attacker is not to simply grab you and hold on but to disrupt and control your balance either by maneuvering and striking (very cool drill Capt...) or simply throwing you. Especially the techniques from behind. Odds are if they are going to tackle, throw, or lift you off the ground from behind, you're going to be toast before you realize what's happening. Another good point about take downs did anyone see the M.L. baseball game where the pitcher did a double leg takedown on a charging batter (ok..... slightly charging batter) followed by a punch to the face. I'm pretty sure he's never had bjj training.

Am I trying to say that these are all my thoughts and ideas? No. In most cases I was shown why this wouldn't work, but in some cases I was able to figure things out for myself using simple logic and physics. I don't have all the answers, but before there are answers there are always questions.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, even if you don't agree.

I couldn't stay away from this one.... :shrug:

It looks to me like you need to get out and train a bit more and work these techniques and analyze them. Just going through the motions will never reveal the answers. I agree with Clyde...spend more time analyzing how they work, not how they don't.

I had an instructor that asked Mr. Parker how to avoid a judo hip toss once. This guy was Mr. Parker's size, or even a little bigger. He grabbed Mr. Parker by his GI, as a typical judo hip throw would happen, and turned to throw Mr. Parker. All Mr. Parker did was simply check this guy at the hip with his hand, and the guy couldn't throw him like he was supposed to be able to. Obviously Mr. Parker knew his judo, and his kenpo.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree. And just to stick up for those useless forms, the hip check against such a throw is in the applications (with a twist stance, yet!) to Long Form 2--arguably the most old-fashioned and traditional form in kenpo.

The arms might go up in Scraping Hooves because, at that moment, that's the path, of least resistance--though technically, the first move is a stomp to their instep as you step to the left. And like Crashing Wings, you step off the opponent's centerline initially, and keep moving off their centerline, precisely so you can't so easily be picked up/unbalanced. In this case, you drag back towards an attention stance and arch your back to try and head butt them. Still, the arms don't come fully up until Rep. Devastation--and as I mentioned, this more-advanced technique supposes that they've partly set their hold, bringing your arms up further. As for the attacker's attempts at takedowns after that, well, again, that's what the extensions teach.

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Leave out example of law enforcement as an example of "real fights". Police cannot box a guy or kick him and break their knees, nor can they kick him in the thighs, generally speaking.

For them, BJJ is an excellent compliment to their Kenpo, as they are required to "restrain" a subject, not beat the snot out of them. But in no way is this anything like a standup bar fight or when I worked as a bouncer.

The only fatalities I have seen in law enforcement were gun related shootings ... EXCEPT for excessive use of force when handcuffing. Several deaths have been attributed to a guy suffocating while on his stomach, for various reasons.

The only time I went to the ground, in the real world, was when I was trying to restrain someone, in a "real world" fight, I have stayed on my feet.

Sure, prepare to fight on the ground if you want. BUT QUIT TRYING TO SELL IT AS A "REAL" FIGHT. It may or may not be, and certainly will not be for me unless the goal is to restrain the opponent.

Yours in Kenpo

I worked for the Dept. of Coreections a few years ago. While in the academy, we were taught certain SD tech. that we could use in the event we were attacked by an inmate. Some of the things that were included were elbows, knees, as well as restraining tech. Of course, a Correction officer or police officer cannot pound the suspect, but the goal of this person is to avoid going to jail, and if he had the chance to take the cops gun and shoot, then he's going to do it. Don't compare a bar fight to a police officer. You dont arrest the guy in the bar, you throw him out. Bouncers are not cops. It is a totally different field. Officers are taught to use the same amount of force as they are met with. If the guy is empty handed, the use the peper spray, or baton. If the guy has a gun, then they use their gun. Are you telling me that in a real fight that it is ok to pound the snot out of someone? Of course not. You use the same amount of force to control the person. If a drunk friend gives you a hard time at a party, you're not going to break his nose--you use a submission-ie armlock.

Every time an officer leaves for work, he runs the chance of never coming home. If they encounter a situation, they do what they have to do to come out of it ok. Don't say that they are not fighting for their lives, because, if they encounter a suspect with a gun, it will be a fight for their life! If you have no idea about what its like being a cop, DO NOT COMMENT ON THE SUBJECT!!

Also, if in your "encounters" you have never gone to the ground, that is great. However, I"m not saying that you have to spend 20 yrs. learning to grapple, but you should have some understanding of it. To say that you will never find yourself of the ground, could turn out to be a mistake. We have no idea of the skills of the people that we encounter every day. They guy that confronts you might have wrestled for 5 yrs. If that was the case, then I'd be glad that I had some ground expereince.

Mike