Kenpo in the 21st Century

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Excellent!!!!!........After you are done throwing your roundhouse kicks I'll shoot the swing single leg takedown on 'ya.



I'm not sure how that works but after beat up session is over 'ya won't feel like going out to eat anything.



Sure thing, I haven't put pads on since being at Seig's place. You know I need to brush up on some skills.

Roundhouse kicks? Naw, I'm a shooter, I like to get inside myself in a hurry.

You beat me up? LOL:rofl:

No, no brush needed, just bring your gear.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Roundhouse kicks? Naw, I'm a shooter, I like to get inside myself in a hurry.

Cool, then it sounds like we will have fun.

You beat me up? LOL

:rofl:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Cool, then it sounds like we will have fun.



:rofl:

Don't forget, you buy Chinese dinner!:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Robertson:

First off, the only justifications I've seen so far amount to a hill of cliches: "empty your cup," "We must expand and grow," "you should be prepared if...," etc. etc., yada yada.

How about this, alot of the older techniques suck and won't work or have severe weaknesses that should be addressed. If you would like to debate the physics behind I'm all ears.

Second--this "modernization?" Where's it end? First BJJ. Then--what? FMA for sticks? Kali for knives? Something else for guns? It doesn't look like modernization--or rather, it does: the sort of "modernization," that leads to, "planned obsolescence." You know, the endless discovery of new desires

This is directed towards everyone out there. How come everything is black or white? Neither of the extremes will be good for the system rather a balance between the traditionalist and expansionalist mindsets should be found.

Third: a philosophy resting on the discounting of other people's experience and a rewriting of the past. Some of us have repeatedly noted that we trained some of this, "new," stuff right in the old kenpo school; some of us have several times noted that the discussion of all this, "new," "more modern," "external," stuff is right in Mr. Parker's books, or in the sorts of stuff that folks like Larry Tatum are writing.

Did Mr. Parker not try to incorporate a number of the ideas, concepts, and principles from other arts into his own. For example didn't he study judo? So if it was good enough for Parker why would it be sacrilege for the rest of us? Also if you think Larry Tatum is teaching BJJ in his school why don't you just run down to Jean Jacque Machado's place in Torrance. I'm sure he'll be accomodating.

Fourth: the notion that somewhere out there is perfection. I insist it's a paranoiac notion--the attempt to fill all gaps, coded in contemporary capitalist terms. You know--more technology, shinier technology, that's the cure for everything. I simply don't expect to become a perfected fighter--don't want to, really. I'd like to become a better martial artist.

Well I agree. I also don't think we'll ever know everything about our universe or the complex science that governs it, perhaps we should quit exploring and just accept our lowliness. Sounds like a great plan to me. Or wait, perhaps we could learn as much as we can during our journey so that we can pass it on to the next generation to help them with their journey. You know that whole stewardship thing.

Fifth: way too much fascination with the idea of fighting and violence. (See Robert Smith's books.) Fundamental to all this modernizing talk are these ideas: a) the streets are so dangerous that you have to be prepared for anything anytime; b) you have to learn to inflict infinite damage, because the streets are filled with extraordinary fighters; c) it is impossible to talk your way out/avoid the trouble in the first place, d) strangers are the enemy.

I love kenpo because it sometimes gives me the much needed distraction from the rest of my life. It gives me a common ground from which a number of my friendships are based, and as an added bonus I think it's made me a better fighter than before I started. Why spend your life training in something if it won't make you better? That just seems stupid. Also, everyone who gets on the computer will talk a mean game, but very few would not think to try and talk themselves out of a situation. It's the scared little child in us all.

Sixth--who's going to "take charge," of all this modernization? I smell the Urge to Incorporate here, especially since the modernizers seem to really need to bring the Good News to us heathen

Seems to me like it's doing just fine without a large governing body trying to reign supreme.

What it comes down to is this, in 2 generations no one will care what you, or I, or anyone else thought about the future of kenpo. "They" will, inevitabley, push in the direction of their choosing and there is nothing that can be done about it. Take comfort in the inevitability.

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, fine.

First off, countering an indictment of cliches such as "empty your cup," with the claim that, "some of the techniques...suck," is hardly what I would call discussion of the issue. It has been my experience that the techs do NOT suck, our understanding/teaching/application of them often sucks. For example, I've seen and read a fair number of folks who run the techs and attacks in a dead fashion, complain that the attack is sterile and the tech dead, and then try to rewrite the tech to compensate for what was their problem in the first place.

Second off, I see that you missed the point of my comment on modernization. However, I agree that this whole imposition of a binary opposition between "traditional," and "modern," is wrong-headed--as I pretty much noted in a previous post.

Third, why exactly do I have to duplicate Mr. Parker's research? Generally, this is called, "reinventing the wheel," and though it is necessary to try and make sure that the particular wheel didn't need reinventing, it is also necessary to realize that the wheel's just fine as it is. As for Mr. Tatum teaching Machado jiu-jitsu--please re-read. This isn't even close to what I wrote. And my running down there so I can get my *** kicked, why would I go play on somebody else's turf, by their rules, and expect anything else? I might also note that my whole point was that I don't plan to be haring hither and yon...

On your fourth point, looks like we agree.

On your fifth--I'm afraid I'm not talking about improving, or struggling towards that Man of La Mancha unreachable star. Of course, one should do that. I'm talking about the particular star too many are, I think, reaching towards. I'm talking about their motivation for reaching towards this goal of perfected violence, the fantasy of infinite danger, the idea of treating martial arts as a big Sharper Image store...

And again, we seem to agree on the sixth point, though I may be a bit more suspicious about money.

All in all, fair enough, I guess. Thanks.

 

[Fastmover]

CThe whole premise of this thread in my opinion seems to be whether Kenpo should evolve to meet the needs of the martial artist of the day. If history of Ed Parker tells us anything, change is inevitable simply because as individuals we should be constantly learning and growing. Mr. Parker did this so why shouldn’t we as well? Mr. Parker was Also open to outside opinion and thought and Im sure he was influenced by others
point of view. Are we in Kenpo so arrogant to believe that we have all the answers and discount the perspective of others? Other opinions may enlighten our journey by providing a unique perspective.

I do not believe that Kenpo as a system will ever consolidate into one governing body, nor do I believe it should. There is to many differing opinions and a varying need to tailor the process of learning the system that best fits all the individuals out there. Everyone has an opinion, and within the martial arts we are all very passionate about it. Thankfully, there is an abundance of associations each with their own method of teaching principles of Kenpo. Some feel that the many splintered associations weakens
Kenpo, I say it strengthens it. There is something out there for everyone and the uniqueness of each makes us all stronger.

I threw out a question earlier regarding the base of Kenpo. The techniques within the Web of knowledge are simply tools that help instill the principles and concepts within the individual. Change is interesting because if we follow the principles of Kenpo; again I refer to Mr Parker, there could be ways of changing the sequences in the techniques to solidify and economize a students rate of learning the principles of Kenpo. Principles are the base of our system in my opinion. It’s the principles within Kenpo that act as a guide, that not only help me understand my motion within Kenpo, but the motion contained within other martial arts as well, BJJ in my personal case. I remember hearing how Bruce Lee would come to Ed Parker and even though Mr Parker may not have been familiar With the sequences that Lee was doing, he never the less could apply and explain the principles. Let be me clear that the principles do not change, the basics of physics for example are consistent, but our methods of explaining and the vehicles for understanding them should.

Sorry for the ramble!

Just my opinion,

JC

 

[MJS]

Once Master Parker passed away, alot of people broke off and created new organizations. While he was alive, he was able to keep things the way he wanted to do them. You could probably take 3 of his top students, ask them to perform and explain a tech. and you will no doubt get 3 very different responses. Parker changed Kenpo even from the way he first learned it. He made it more up to date with todays times. In my opinion, the only way to keep an art growing and up to date, is with change. Sometimes the changes are for the better, sometimes they are not. If adding a trapping movement from JKD or a grappling move from BJJ is the answer, then I see nothing wrong with doing it.

We all seem to get into the argument about BJJ, and how its not good against mult. attackers. First, how many of the people who teach mult. attacker defense, has actually had experience with the?? You will not be fighting 5 guys at one time, and have them attack you one at a time. NO, you will have 2 at a time, or 2 holding you, while the 3rd punches you. Its easy to teach this in a controlled fashion, but under the stress of the street, its very different. Also, what happens if you get attacked from the rear, where you can't see the attack coming, and you get knocked to the ground. You should at least know some basics on the ground to defend yourself, and then work your way back to your feet. Also, not every fight that you encounter will involve mult. people.

Despite what some people think about sayings, such as empty your cup. Well, that is probably one of the biggest problems with some people today. They are so set in their ways and beliefs, thinking that they know all that there is to know. Well, that is not the case. I believe that there is something to be learned from every style. If I can attend a seminar on JKD, and make a movement work for me, then I'll add it to my bag of tricks. The same goes with a kick from TKD, or a lock from Juijitsu. Bruce Lee did this and look at JKD today. It is probably one of the most complete arts around.

Mike

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Directed to Mr. Robertson:

I am open to a debate about the techniques. Am I claiming to know everything about them? No, but I have seen, experienced, and/or talked with various people about certain techniques which I feel to be obsolete. This is either because "I" don't believe that they will work (and I'm willing to provide explanations) or I think that the same outcome could be accomplished in a more efficient manner.

Several of the old IKKA club defenses were TESTED out. Mr. Mills had a club in his right hand, resting on his right shoulder. The guy who did the defenses was, I believe, a 5th at the time (wearing a lot of protective gear of course) and didn't stop the club once. All he had to do was shoot in a do the first block, and he was never able to do so.

Gun defenses: How many of you that practice these techniques have ever actually fired a weapon? Probably a few, but the overwhelming majority has not. {DO not try this kids}
The last time I was at the gun range, a friend of mine was nice enough to run a drill for me. Facing 12 o'clock he aimed his 9mm to about 1:30 and told me that he wouldn't fire until he saw me move (oh yeah, I didn't have ear protection on at the time). When I lunged in the flash, and concusive "boom" from the bullet leaving the barrel resulted in an extremely disoriented defense ( i.e. almost none at all). Now granted that was the first time I had ever done that, and with a little practice I could probably do a lot better, but my point is that the vast majority who have never had the gun go off by their head would probably react just like I did. Am I advocating that we all go deaf from gun training? No, but there is something to be said for a realistic understanding of what you're up against.

Just some thoughts. I'm always open to debate, but I only check this board every couple of days.
Peace

 

[Touch Of Death]

I met a man here in Spokane who trained in a style of Kenpo that broke away in the 60s. He actualy said to me that Mr parker had it toguether in the 60s but sort of lost touch with the reality of the street in the 70s. Pehaps he has a point with some over-sophistication that may or may not be going on; however, I realized I was talking to a person that didn't even want to look at what Mr. Parker had been working on at the time of his death. His mind was made up and closed thank you very much. I listened to him bad mouth my school a little and politly left his studio.
All martial arts specialize in some aspect of fighting. They gain wisdoms from the experience. So why in gods name would we choose to ignore the fastest growing martial art in the country?
why are the simple counters to these very kenpo negating locks and holds so distastfull to us? Instead of just saying "make the ground your freind." Why choose not to make the ground our freind? The techniques only can give you the gist of a concept. It is up to you to explore it... not ignore it.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Evolution has to be gradual or it is a mutation. We should let things continue to evolve as they do and not try to force it. There is a lot of good stuff out there, and at the same time a lot of BS. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Jill666]

Wow, it that the voice of reason I hear? Naaah-
:rofl:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Evolution has to be gradual or it is a mutation. We should let things continue to evolve as they do and not try to force it. There is a lot of good stuff out there, and at the same time a lot of BS. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.

I ain't changing , no matter what! (Sounds of nails scrapping, leanving marks on the floor as I'm being dragged out)

 

[Rob_Broad]

You act like I am a brash, uncouth, S.O.B. There are times to call a spade a spade, and there are times to let nature take its course. The state of American Kenpo today is very tenuous at times. Occaisionally a cool head can get farther that someone trying to impose their will.

 

[Touch Of Death]

sitting back is not the answer. You either modernize or you do not. Sitting around waiting while others pass you up sort of leaves you without an advantage. Avoiding conflict will make it so you don't have to know what they might know; however, if your a loud mouth like me, conflict finds you. Pehaps if one avoids conflict it negates the "need" to train in the martial arts at all. If you arent training because that little insecurity we all have demands it, you are there for another reason. Well what is that reason? Is it because your instructor is famous, you need to loose a little weight, you freinds are doing it? Love of the art? If its love somthing motivates you to love it. What might that be?
just remember this, your instructor is a business man and it may not be in his best interest for you to seek outside information. If he or she has somehow convinced you that the package he sells is complete. You got duped. If you wont look outside the box because you are endeared to the "tradition" or the "mystique"(of a demystified art) then you are duping yourself.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In response, the first thing I'd write is this: give me an example of a technique, describe the attack, tell me why you think it doesn't work, and--if we know the same Parker techs--I can most likely tell you how to make the thing work fine. If not, I'll check with Clyde--who reamed myself and others today in class on just this issue...I can personally tell you that Glancing Salute, Clutching Feathers, Glancing Spear, Circling Fans, and Securing the Storm freakin' work.

Moreover, it has been my experience that the folks who argue that "the technique doesn't work," are wrong. The way they do it doesn't work...and they (myself included) have a failure of imagination concerning figuring the damn thing out. It has also been my experience that some folks throw out chunks of the kenpo system on the grounds that they are outmoded or don't work, then turn about and claim that kenpo is missing all sorts of stuff.

The system is of a piece, folks. You throw out techs, forms, sets, you miss out on the way things are interconnected. Then, sure, things don't work right.

I reject the notion that there's some simple division between "tradition," and "modern," here. In the first place, this sort of simple binary opposition does not describe this sort of complex reality, which is at the very least caught up in a dialectical relation. In the second, the idea of Darwinian "evolution," being advanced here is a problem for two reasons: a) it's a truism (hey? you mean you don't want to evolve?, and b) it supposes a continual process of "on-the-street," testing that is either extremely unlikely or actively immoral.

And yes, I have fired a handgun. And an air rifle, and a rifle, and a shotgun, and a Sharps .50 for that matter. And I liked Jackie Chan's explanation of how to avoid squinting and flinching. And range safety is very important.

One of Jacques Derrida's very best (and most intelligible) comments is this: "Coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire." I wonder about the desire expressed here, in an insistence upon jamming an extraordinarily complex matter into an "either/or," binarism.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Locking Horns and Obscure Claws LOL.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

I forgot about Obscure Claws. And I left out Locking Horns because you showed William and I the technique's use against someone attempt a suplex, and we agreed that Locking Horns can't be a kenpo technique, because kenpo doesn't include anything to do with ground fighting or grappling.

In other words, there is no Locking Horns.

 

[Fastmover]

Evolving forward in Kenpo is a complex dilemma. I agree with Rob in that we Need to be careful how to proceed so that we are not changing for the sack of being different. At the same time I believe that we should not be bound by tradition and not do something because “that’s the way it is in the manual.” Mr. Parker was not a traditionalist and in fact he was a rebel of sorts within the martial art community. Even while he was still alive he was often criticized for adjusting the system through the years, some of the loudest came from within Kenpo itself.

Logic must be our guide as we train. I like what Clyde says, "Put down your purse and lets bang!" When we step on the mat we must hold nothing back and train with everything we have. Technique lines are nice but learning dynamic motion against a static display outlives its purpose after sometime. Our method and
intensity of training will determine how we evolve with our individual skills and within the system of Kenpo as well.

So........Put down your purses and start banging!!!

JC

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with the last poster's sentiments in many ways, but let me repeat: it is not, repeat not, a matter of "traditionalist," vs. "reform."

In this case, here's the reason: everything the "reformers," and "evolutionists," want is available, within kenpo, the way I've been taught it.

If your technique lines are dull and static, well, work for better technique lines. If your dummy doesn't resist, a) recognize the situation and put 'em where you need 'em, b) teach 'em how, c) learn to dummy better yourself.

Certainly and obviously, some of Mr. Parker's theories may still need questioning. Fine. But the structure of that questioning IS BUILT INTO THE KENPO SYSTEM. For that matter, one of Parker's achievements was to get people to question martial arts at all.

I should be clear about something. I suspect that behind some of these calls for, "reform," are folks who want to be "leading," the "development." I suspect it's a question of power--and that's fine, but let's call it what it is.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I forgot about Obscure Claws. And I left out Locking Horns because you showed William and I the technique's use against someone attempt a suplex, and we agreed that Locking Horns can't be a kenpo technique, because kenpo doesn't include anything to do with ground fighting or grappling.

In other words, there is no Locking Horns.

I hate it when you can quote me that well LOL. There was also Thrusting Lance, Fatal Cross, and Protecting Fans, and those weren't grappling techniques.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde