Kenpo... Hard Style or Soft Style?

[BlackCatBonz]

this can be both a difficult or easy question to answer......depending on which school of thought you were introduced to first. IMHO, i think all martial arts when done well are soft. i am staying away from the internal/external designation.
depending on the route that you were trained in from the beginning will determine whether you act hard or soft. for example, student A studies under teacher A and learns the canon of techniques using the blocks, parries, and strikes. when executed, the tools are used in such a way that uke feels it all, (i hope you're following me) every bone crunching block and strike as it's delivered, until uke is out of commission.
student B learns the canon of techniques from instructor B. when executed, uke doesnt know what has happened until it's too late, tori has manipulated uke into a position advantageous to tori through the use of timing, distance, and manipulative body positioning until the final blow or lock is laid.
sounds kind of esoteric in the description, but it is quite real.
imagine it like turning to walk in one direction and hitting a lamp post with your face.
thats one definition of soft, and thats the way i was taught kempo.

now, is it an internal or external art?

shawn

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

To start, let me say that the kenpo I spent most of my time in, and have my instructors cert in, is an eclectic Chinese Kenpo-Jujitsu with elements of Hawaiian Kenpo, CKK, AK, TKD, Judo, Japanese Jujutsu, etc...compiled by one of the many folks who started under Tracy/Parker banners, took off on their own to 1) learn from various, complementary sources, then 2) satisfy his own ego by starting his own system. Kinduva a pattern in kempo/kenpo alluded to on another thread, but what-da-hey.

That on the table:

I was taught that kenpo is an inter-expression of hard and soft, containing elements of both that are played out depending on the desired effect (sting, stun, or stop; daze, pummel, maim, or kill).

In it's ideal expression: soft defenses utilizing fluid patterns of checks and parries with evasive bodywork and footwork, ultimately leading to either taking advantage of -- or making -- available targets, which are then struck with "hard-style" blows. Soft defense; hard counters.

I was also taught that hard and soft are delineated further in the effect of the strike, and the target of the strike. Hard Targets = face, chest, etc. Soft targets = carotid pulse point, groin, styloid process. (how much resisting bone plate is there, compared to available soft-tissues and nerves?). As for the strikes, they get classified by effect. A hard style strike will generate an immediately visible result, the results of which are undeniable and plain to see to all involved. IE, vertical thrust punch to nose causes a "snap" sound from the frail bone, and is followed by profuse bleeding. No matter how pretty/flowery in delivery (or not), "hard" based on the result.

Soft strikes produce less immediatly identifiable results, frequently not felt until well after the conflict, with deeper results lasting after the conflict. EG: vertical spear hand to carotid artery. Doubtful you'll cause death, arterial dissection, or any of that mythical garbage. What you will do (provided you don't break your fingers) is create an immediate pain that causes the guy to wince, but not stop fighting. After you've ended the fight with follow-up hard strikes or submissions, the poor guy goes home to mind his own beeswax, and ice his fat lip (a hard taret swollen frmo a hard strike) that will be barely noticeable after 3-4 days. The injury site in the neck starts to swell, and the inflammation provides a chemical irritant to the surrounding tissues in the antrior triangle of the neck. These drain to the lymph nodes, which address these metabolites and damaged cells like nivaders, causing infection-like symptoms and a sore throat; everytime the guy swallows for about the next week or two, the injury hurts, the lymph nodes hurt, and he's reminded of how he got this nagging discomfort. Additionally, while the fat lip is immediately resultant, but goes away quickly, the blood released from the anterior cervical soft tissues will take a coulpe days to form a bruise that surfaces to the skin. Just about the time the lip goes down, the neck bruise comes out. Slow to come out; slow to clear up. A visual reminder that lasts for a couple weeks. All the while, tender to the touch, and painful with swallowing.

I think of "sting him" as being some of these soft strikes, possibly to hard targets (to get his attention and warn him of possibilities he may not want to experience); "stun him" as being the punches, hammerfists, etc., to hard targets (PMD/TKO anyone?); and the "stop him" as being hard strikes to soft targets (slam an inward elbow to that spot behind the ear; front thrusting snap kick to the nerves, arteries and veins in the adductor hiatus, etc.). Defensively, a kenpo practitioner should strive for (hard to obtain, but a good target goal) an invincible defence. That's to say, have your system of blocks, parries, checks, jams, stops, etc., so well down, that the guy has to really put himself to task -- and you -- to get off a good, full shot. If he does manage to get one out of the chamber without its progress being stunted, you should still be able to get a partial block, parry, or check in there, such that it barely grazes or taps you. That's the "soft" side of defense.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

 

[Karazenpo]

To start, let me say that the kenpo I spent most of my time in, and have my instructors cert in, is an eclectic Chinese Kenpo-Jujitsu with elements of Hawaiian Kenpo, CKK, AK, TKD, Judo, Japanese Jujutsu, etc...compiled by one of the many folks who started under Tracy/Parker banners, took off on their own to 1) learn from various, complementary sources, then 2) satisfy his own ego by starting his own system. Kinduva a pattern in kempo/kenpo alluded to on another thread, but what-da-hey.

That on the table:

I was taught that kenpo is an inter-expression of hard and soft, containing elements of both that are played out depending on the desired effect (sting, stun, or stop; daze, pummel, maim, or kill).

In it's ideal expression: soft defenses utilizing fluid patterns of checks and parries with evasive bodywork and footwork, ultimately leading to either taking advantage of -- or making -- available targets, which are then struck with "hard-style" blows. Soft defense; hard counters.

I was also taught that hard and soft are delineated further in the effect of the strike, and the target of the strike. Hard Targets = face, chest, etc. Soft targets = carotid pulse point, groin, styloid process. (how much resisting bone plate is there, compared to available soft-tissues and nerves?). As for the strikes, they get classified by effect. A hard style strike will generate an immediately visible result, the results of which are undeniable and plain to see to all involved. IE, vertical thrust punch to nose causes a "snap" sound from the frail bone, and is followed by profuse bleeding. No matter how pretty/flowery in delivery (or not), "hard" based on the result.

Soft strikes produce less immediatly identifiable results, frequently not felt until well after the conflict, with deeper results lasting after the conflict. EG: vertical spear hand to carotid artery. Doubtful you'll cause death, arterial dissection, or any of that mythical garbage. What you will do (provided you don't break your fingers) is create an immediate pain that causes the guy to wince, but not stop fighting. After you've ended the fight with follow-up hard strikes or submissions, the poor guy goes home to mind his own beeswax, and ice his fat lip (a hard taret swollen frmo a hard strike) that will be barely noticeable after 3-4 days. The injury site in the neck starts to swell, and the inflammation provides a chemical irritant to the surrounding tissues in the antrior triangle of the neck. These drain to the lymph nodes, which address these metabolites and damaged cells like nivaders, causing infection-like symptoms and a sore throat; everytime the guy swallows for about the next week or two, the injury hurts, the lymph nodes hurt, and he's reminded of how he got this nagging discomfort. Additionally, while the fat lip is immediately resultant, but goes away quickly, the blood released from the anterior cervical soft tissues will take a coulpe days to form a bruise that surfaces to the skin. Just about the time the lip goes down, the neck bruise comes out. Slow to come out; slow to clear up. A visual reminder that lasts for a couple weeks. All the while, tender to the touch, and painful with swallowing.

I think of "sting him" as being some of these soft strikes, possibly to hard targets (to get his attention and warn him of possibilities he may not want to experience); "stun him" as being the punches, hammerfists, etc., to hard targets (PMD/TKO anyone?); and the "stop him" as being hard strikes to soft targets (slam an inward elbow to that spot behind the ear; front thrusting snap kick to the nerves, arteries and veins in the adductor hiatus, etc.). Defensively, a kenpo practitioner should strive for (hard to obtain, but a good target goal) an invincible defence. That's to say, have your system of blocks, parries, checks, jams, stops, etc., so well down, that the guy has to really put himself to task -- and you -- to get off a good, full shot. If he does manage to get one out of the chamber without its progress being stunted, you should still be able to get a partial block, parry, or check in there, such that it barely grazes or taps you. That's the "soft" side of defense.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

Great post, Dave. Very interesting, I like that one!

 

[The Kai]

Pretty much a soft style to hurt, check or avoid the attack, a hard style to finisn the event

Todd

 

[Thunderbolt]

AK is a chinese art.????

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

AK is a chinese art.????

American art with japanese and chinese influences.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Although he wasn't particularly a Kenpoist I like the statement I heard Bruce Lee make during an interview. He said, "Be like water. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water." In the beginning my Kenpo only crashed and was hard in execution, and my movements, even the circular ones were absent of flow. This is an interesting conversation, and Dr. Dave :asian: I like your explanation of soft and hard based on targets and results. I have come to understand, thanks to Doc :asian: , that as a practitioner grows in this art they define their Kenpo. For me it is both a hard (crashing) and a soft (flowing) art, however I aspire for my Kenpo to become softer.

As I have become more comfortable, studied, practiced, learned, observed and read my Kenpo has changed and is beginning to become more flowing - softer. I equate some of my softer movements with conscious relaxation and concentrated energy flow. I have been amazed to find how a palm strike done with a hard stiff strike creates a nice thud, but when executed with a soft flowing relaxed movement the strike to the same target has a measurably more devastating effect on my opponent. When I hit it correctly in this soft relaxed manner, I've had my much larger opponent actually be moved by the power I was able to generate. I've found that the times the strikes do not even "feel" to me like they would be effective, because I am sometimes still stuck in a mind set that my execution need be hard and crashing, is often the times my opponent is moved or tells me it was most effective, and I am amazed. I can not make this happen each and every time, but that is the goal - softer, more flowing, execution with a hard, more crashing, end result.

MJ

 

[Karazenpo]

Although he wasn't particularly a Kenpoist I like the statement I heard Bruce Lee make during an interview. He said, "Be like water. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water." In the beginning my Kenpo only crashed and was hard in execution, and my movements, even the circular ones were absent of flow. This is an interesting conversation, and Dr. Dave :asian: I like your explanation of soft and hard based on targets and results. I have come to understand, thanks to Doc :asian: , that as a practitioner grows in this art they define their Kenpo. For me it is both a hard (crashing) and a soft (flowing) art, however I aspire for my Kenpo to become softer.

As I have become more comfortable, studied, practiced, learned, observed and read my Kenpo has changed and is beginning to become more flowing - softer. I equate some of my softer movements with conscious relaxation and concentrated energy flow. I have been amazed to find how a palm strike done with a hard stiff strike creates a nice thud, but when executed with a soft flowing relaxed movement the strike to the same target has a measurably more devastating effect on my opponent. When I hit it correctly in this soft relaxed manner, I've had my much larger opponent actually be moved by the power I was able to generate. I've found that the times the strikes do not even "feel" to me like they would be effective, because I am sometimes still stuck in a mind set that my execution need be hard and crashing, is often the times my opponent is moved or tells me it was most effective, and I am amazed. I can not make this happen each and every time, but that is the goal - softer, more flowing, execution with a hard, more crashing, end result.

MJ

Sounds good to me MJ, nice post!

 

[Karazenpo]

MJ, thinking more about it, isn't that what the tsusami that recently hit Indonesia and Thailand was all about..........'flowing and then crashing' with maximum devastation.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ, thinking more about it, isn't that what the tsusami that recently hit Indonesia and Thailand was all about..........'flowing and then crashing' with maximum devastation.

Thanks and a big yes! I really like the connection you make here. :asian: It's funny I watched a special on tsunamis just last night on TLC (LOL) maybe that's part of why I posted this. It was very informative. In one instance the water in an otherwise calm inlet was disrupted by a quick landslide from a surrounding mountain and it created a mega tsunami wall of water that was as tall as a 50 story building. The water flowed together as a wall and then crashed onto shore taking everything that was in its way. The tsunami that hit Indonesia and Thailand was much smaller but the results unfortunately most certainly were devastating.

MJ :asian:

 

[Colin_Linz]

I don’t think there is a button to suit my art. I wouldn’t say we are half way between the two, but rather we have techniques within the two sets of principles. Our physical syllabus consists of three areas of study, Goho (hard methods), Juho (soft methods), Seiho (healing methods). While these are separated in the syllabus they are designed to work with each other, this principle is what we call Go Ju Ittai, or hard and soft work best when used together.

For clarity what would be the consensus of opinion on the meaning of the middle button. Is it half way between the two, or do you study both aspects?

 

[still learning]

Hello, How important is this if your style is known for " Hard or soft style? Internal or external? When you get hit "Hard is better" with an external fist or external kick. Inner power is always needed..do we have a "hard or soft internal power? A relax body will hit you faster and more powerful?

I guess it is the way we were taught or learn this "hard/soft" thing will make us all correct in our own way. How you look at it and form your opinion is your right. No mattter what the other guys say....who's to say what is right? It is all base on who we learn this from? I don't think there is a text book were we could go to prove these thoughts of "hard/soft ways and internal and external" ways.

The question is "hard style/soft style refering to way of training in our overall art? OK than it is more of a hard style with perry (soft way of blocking) or indirect blocking, in our school, hard hitting/multiple hitting to the body. Take downs can be soft/hard depending on who you are fighting? Sometimes we must use judgement or face jail time?

Every martial art uses both? Can we only use one? Is one way better than the other way?......Is this a " hard a question'? ......Aloha

 

[still learning]

Hello, How important is this if your style is known for " Hard or soft style? Internal or external? When you get hit "Hard is better" with an external fist or external kick. Inner power is always needed..do we have a "hard or soft internal power? A relax body will hit you faster and more powerful?

I guess it is the way we were taught or learn this "hard/soft" thing will make us all correct in our own way. How you look at it and form your opinion is your right. No mattter what the other guys say....who's to say what is right? It is all base on who we learn this from? I don't think there is a text book were we could go to prove these thoughts of "hard/soft ways and internal and external" ways.

The question is "hard style/soft style refering to way of training in our overall art? OK than it is more of a hard style with perry (soft way of blocking) or indirect blocking, in our school, hard hitting/multiple hitting to the body. Take downs can be soft/hard depending on who you are fighting? Sometimes we must use judgement or face jail time?

Every martial art uses both? Can we only use one? Is one way better than the other way?......Is this a " hard a question'? ......Aloha

 

[Seabrook]

EPAK is a combination of soft and hard movements.

 

[LexTalinis]

They way I was taught Kenpo, it is a blend between hard and soft. I have also branched out and studied Hsing-I and Pa Kua, so it "softened" up my Kenpo a bit more then was already there. I like the blen of the two philosophies, and I think they work well in conjuntion with each other.

I am aware that their are many who disagree with that, but those indiviuals generally hail from the "softer" internal arts. In my humble opinion, I tend to think that keeping one's self one dimentional has a "pigeon-hole" effect.

 

[Kenpobuff]

I love the discussion on hard and soft. I agree that at times and with certain techniques EPAK displays hard and soft sides to its art. With practice and time in the system we can truely tailor it to the art we want it to be and that fits our own style and/or physical limitations.

I don't want to distract from this excellent discussion and perhaps a new thread should be started on my question, but...

My question on this subject is, what the heck do I check on the tournament registration form? (lol) Seriously, for those starting out (say, below brown belt)who wish to participate in tournaments and have just been learning the basics in technitques and forms what do you suggest they sign up for?

May be I will answer my own question here where forms s1 & l1 show a hard side with basic blocks and strikes and s2 & l2 and even s3 & l3 tend to lean to the combination soft and hard as well as form 4. So my modified question is, without a catagory just for Kenpo or hard/soft combination in open competitions where would you place them in a tournament?

 

[donald]

I agree that EPAK contains elements of both, and that it really depends on how one is taught, and how one leans in practice.

 

[Drifter]

EPAK will work as long as the body mechanics are there. Crashing Wings as an example. You can nudge the person over your leg, or you can nail them as hard as possible. It's all about getting the technique down, and then you can vary your power according to how you want to.

 

[marlon]

!@$$#^%#^!!! wrote my reply but i guess i took too long and got bounced!!


Typing faster
Imho there seems to be an equation of soft to internalk and hard to external that does not match my understanding.
Internal, barring discussions on 'qi' generation uses body mechanics and skeletal alignment to generate power and to fight with
External is impact driven
soft refers to muscles using more circular motion to generate impact
hard refers to muscles and well uses muscles to generaste impact
Kempo/kenpo is soft and hard and definitely external in orientation

an internal stylist usually attacks the skeletal sytem of the opponent using specific skeletal aligmnets to cause misalignment, imbalances in the attacker often the ground and walls join in the fight creating extra impact. yes they hit also.

an external stylist is hit hard hit fast hit first. Very impact driven.

I hope this distinction is clear. My other post was better

I did not mention pressure point strike or sub level four b/c the inclusion of these attacks or the exclusion would not change these different types of fighting

Again my opinion is that kempo/kenpo is external soft and hard. although the aikijitsu components of Shaolin Kempo begin to touch on the internal but not indepth. We can take our kempo/kenp where we want to with knowledge and training

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Shaolinmack]

I have seen realy hard styles and realy soft styles, but the style i sudie seems to be a balanced combonation of soft and hard. some internat work and lots of external energy.. but thats just me.