Kenpo Ground Fighting
- Thread starter MJS
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LuckyKBoxer
Master Black Belt
well my comment is he is showing one part of the drill, and didnt explain why the guy is not punching him. the key in most of what we do is timing, posture, and position.
this shrimping or hip escape movement is very good, but in a street situation you definitely want to break the guy on tops posture first, you can do this by driving your knee into his back so he falls foarward and posts his hands on the ground above your head, this gives yout he time to do the first leg in this hip escape, and then decide whether you are being given the proper catalyst to either continue on, defend punches, or rebreak his posture and continue.
like anything else we teach this is one piece.
a piece i absolutely agree with.
LuckyKBoxer
Master Black Belt
I am not sure who you are talking about, but I know that the guy talking in the clip from casa de kenpo is Cliff Seminario, he has experience in Danzan ryu Jiu jitsu, and I know that he trained with Eddie Bravo as well. I do not know who or where he trains with now if he is training, but I was under the impression talking to him online on other sites that he has a fairly extensive jiu jitsu background.. I do not believe he is a black belt, but I could be wrong there as well.
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
The knee push verision shown in the video clip is good for submission grappling when you don't have to worry about getting punched. You will have to tweak it a little if that is the method you choice to use. If I use my left hand to push on their right knee, my right hand comes up as if I am talking on a phone to protect my head from being punched or elbowed.
I personally don't like the schrimp technique as well. My favorite is what we call the no hands escape. It's what Eddie Bravo does with a leg hook and goes into either Alcatraz or Guantanamo escape. I also prefer the bridge and roll, because it gets me off my back put bad guy on his back. I then can strike and pass/ escape his guard.
I personally don't like the schrimp technique as well. My favorite is what we call the no hands escape. It's what Eddie Bravo does with a leg hook and goes into either Alcatraz or Guantanamo escape. I also prefer the bridge and roll, because it gets me off my back put bad guy on his back. I then can strike and pass/ escape his guard.
Yes, I was talking about the last set of clips I posted, from casa de Kenpo. As I said, I know of their Kenpo background, but anything else, I have no idea. Of course, after reading your post, I now know that he has a grappling background.
Thanks for that info.
As for the YT clip...well, like I always say about YT...its showing one shot of the big picture, in this case, a mount escape. Should he have went a step further and actually had the top guy throw some punches? Probably, but he didn't, so, we take it for what it is, I suppose. Like I said, if I were to rank all of the clips, I'd place the CDK clips in the #1 spot, and IMHO, their showing of the ground, was much better presented than in the other clips. Again, thats just my opinion.
As for using both hands, 1 hand, etc....yes, if you're just rolling for submissions, no shots being thrown, then its not that big of a deal, but if you're training MMA, or training for a street attack, then yes, after you get the basic fundamentals down, IMO, it'd be wise to start adding in the resistance, punches, etc.
Like I said, if I were to rank all of the clips, I'd place the CDK clips in the #1 spot, and IMHO, their showing of the ground, was much better presented than in the other clips. Again, thats just my opinion. As for using both hands, 1 hand, etc....yes, if you're just rolling for submissions, no shots being thrown, then its not that big of a deal, but if you're training MMA, or training for a street attack, then yes, after you get the basic fundamentals down, IMO, it'd be wise to start adding in the resistance, punches, etc.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Larry is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to apply the techniques you learn standing on the ground,just modified for that environment.However,once again the lack of realistic training dramatically hampers him and anyone who trained that way in pretty much every regard.It's immediately apparent to all that the attacks and defenses are not done realistically and therefore whatever defense and coutnerattacks we develope from that model will be similarly hampered and impaired.
"Uke" on top should be striking with the intent to hit and/or grab.Doesn't have to be done full force right off top,I have my students use minimal force at first,but THEY HAVE TO TRY TO MAKE CONTACT AND KEEP THEIR POSITION ATOP THEIR TRAINING PARTNER.They are ordered to keep striking until their training partner escapes or the round (40 seconds for beginners,which is an ETERNITY when you first start out) ends.We then reverse; the student on bottom is now on top.Immediately the intense conditioning requirements for grappling sets in,and the student is glad for the step-by-step process I took them through previously because it alleviates much of the physical drain.My students learn from day one the incredible importance of training realistically,so they never have to deal with the extremely rude realities that await people who do what Larry just did.
I tell my students to unbalance their mounted opponents by kneeing them and by using modifications of the standing stances on the ground.The visual result is similar to shootwrestling judo and catchwrestling.I mean,think of the wide bent knee stance applied to the ground.It looks like the judo or bjj Bridge and Roll.When your opponent posts down with a hand to keep their position atop you? Well hell we Kenpo folks know how to check down on your arm or wrist to break your post.We know how to smack ya with a blizzard of in close strikes too while attempting our escapes.We know how to go from Wide Bent Knee to Left or Right Forward Bow,and if you've been taught to not only step 'to' but step "THROUGH" your opponent (as I teach my students to do),so we can effect a Bridge and Roll to any direction without any problem while applying our Kenpo strikes pushes,pulls,parries,or what have you.
This does NOT,however,obviate the need to study judo,bjj,wrestling,sambo,catchwrestling,etc. because we can learn a great deal about these arts and 'absorb what is useful' from it while applying our own unique brand of Kenpo to it.I've used Sword of Destruction from the Butterfly Guard (just the Horse Stance from off your back) great affect.It's truly a unique treat to introduce your sparring partner or even better some unsuspecting bad guy to the joys of the 5 Swords or Raining Claw or Striking Serpent Head from the kesagatame.Chin na/hapkido/aikido/Shackle Hand (African martial art)/Ungala (African martial art)/kali wristlocks combined with the blizzard of Kenpo strikes are sure to bring more joy to your sparring partners and amplify your self-defense skills.
Okay basically you get the idea now.Train realistically.Experiment with our stances and movement from the standing and ground grappling ranges.Focus on sport specific drills designed to rapidly facilitate proficiency in those areas and make up other drills for the same purpose. Be aware of what the proponents of grappling or firearms or stick and knife fighting or fencing or WHATEVER have found to be effective by studying them and their methods,incorporate it into Kenpo in the way that you see fit.There ya go.
"Uke" on top should be striking with the intent to hit and/or grab.Doesn't have to be done full force right off top,I have my students use minimal force at first,but THEY HAVE TO TRY TO MAKE CONTACT AND KEEP THEIR POSITION ATOP THEIR TRAINING PARTNER.They are ordered to keep striking until their training partner escapes or the round (40 seconds for beginners,which is an ETERNITY when you first start out) ends.We then reverse; the student on bottom is now on top.Immediately the intense conditioning requirements for grappling sets in,and the student is glad for the step-by-step process I took them through previously because it alleviates much of the physical drain.My students learn from day one the incredible importance of training realistically,so they never have to deal with the extremely rude realities that await people who do what Larry just did.
I tell my students to unbalance their mounted opponents by kneeing them and by using modifications of the standing stances on the ground.The visual result is similar to shootwrestling judo and catchwrestling.I mean,think of the wide bent knee stance applied to the ground.It looks like the judo or bjj Bridge and Roll.When your opponent posts down with a hand to keep their position atop you? Well hell we Kenpo folks know how to check down on your arm or wrist to break your post.We know how to smack ya with a blizzard of in close strikes too while attempting our escapes.We know how to go from Wide Bent Knee to Left or Right Forward Bow,and if you've been taught to not only step 'to' but step "THROUGH" your opponent (as I teach my students to do),so we can effect a Bridge and Roll to any direction without any problem while applying our Kenpo strikes pushes,pulls,parries,or what have you.
This does NOT,however,obviate the need to study judo,bjj,wrestling,sambo,catchwrestling,etc. because we can learn a great deal about these arts and 'absorb what is useful' from it while applying our own unique brand of Kenpo to it.I've used Sword of Destruction from the Butterfly Guard (just the Horse Stance from off your back) great affect.It's truly a unique treat to introduce your sparring partner or even better some unsuspecting bad guy to the joys of the 5 Swords or Raining Claw or Striking Serpent Head from the kesagatame.Chin na/hapkido/aikido/Shackle Hand (African martial art)/Ungala (African martial art)/kali wristlocks combined with the blizzard of Kenpo strikes are sure to bring more joy to your sparring partners and amplify your self-defense skills.
Okay basically you get the idea now.Train realistically.Experiment with our stances and movement from the standing and ground grappling ranges.Focus on sport specific drills designed to rapidly facilitate proficiency in those areas and make up other drills for the same purpose. Be aware of what the proponents of grappling or firearms or stick and knife fighting or fencing or WHATEVER have found to be effective by studying them and their methods,incorporate it into Kenpo in the way that you see fit.There ya go.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Well said IMO!!
So now, you have people doing today, what Kaju people have been doing all along. Personally, I love seeking out and training with new people, learning new things. I remember the first time one of my training partners introduced me to grappling. I loved it! I dont focus on it as much as I should, mainly due to time, but I still enjoy rolling. My goals with BJJ are pretty much the same as with my Kenpo. While I do enjoy learning new techs., my focus, at least right now, is to, as I've said, work the basics. I'd rather have a handful of things that I know I can do well, instead of 50 things that I suck at. LOL. One of my New Years goals, is to a few BJJ classes and at least a private a month.
The answer to the "time crunch" and the horrible lack of real world clinch work,throws,sweeps,takedowns,standing wrist and joint locks,extensive weapons technical training, ground grappling and ground fighting that severely hamstrings kenpo is all found in the same place: knowledgeable instructors who recognize that kenpo has as part of its lineage the entirety of grappling arts in jujutsu,judo and aikido as kenpojujutsu,and as the Chinese arts found their way into American Kenpo,we should make use of systems like Chin na sanda shuia chao (sp) etc. and apply them to our Kenpo base using sports specific drills.In a one hour class taught twice per week? I'd provide 15 minutes of instruction of standing strikes from Kenpo taught realistically designed to end the fight there, 15 minutes of clinch work, 15 minutes of ground work broken down into 7-1/2 minutes from the mount and 7-1/2 minutes being mounted,then 15 minutes of sparring designed to link all of these techniques together. Each segment would be broken into sport specific drilling for beginners of 1-1/2 minutes work followed by 1'1/2 minutes of rest when needed.I emphasize basic basic partner training here so they quickly acquire skill. A drill that I have used under this situation is the Backfist Reverse Punch And Block Drill.It teaches how to throw the backfist and reverse punch and how to use the upper block and downward parry plus body movement to defeat the technique very very quickly.And it's fun.I have the newbs use very light force,and target the top of the head with the back knuckle (protects the face as most of these newbs don't have protective head gear) and the stomach with the reverse punch.The defender must thwart the back knuckle with the upper block and the reverse punch with the push down palm parry/block.And then they switch roles,the defender becomes the attacker. From the very first moment,I tell each of them to try to make contact with their partner,as you're NOT helping your partner if you're not actually trying to hit them...but I insist on minimal power.I reenforce that it's a drill.I keep this drill going for 1-1/2 minutes followed by up to a 1-1/2 minute break.Very soon they've got the idea and they like it.
The process of trying to land the real world back knuckle and reverse punch leads them naturally and organically to close quarters.Oftentimes they get tangled up in each other's blocks and punches (laughing while doing so) and that lets me teach them a Clinch technique.If they're White belts,I teach them how to step through and push off their opponent and how to trip them,while immediately following up with that backfist reverse punch.
I then show what to do if they're pushed down or tripped and their opponent secures mount or up-down (the attacker is standing while you're grounded). I teach them to scramble to their feet if there's sufficient space (pushed away and you fell) or Bridge and Roll drills if you're tripped and your opponent mounts you.There you apply your blocks and body movement from standing while you're on the ground and fends off grabs combined with your Bridge and Roll,backfist reverse punch flurry,and back to your feet.
A good hour of work and sweat and everybody gets real world skill quickly,safely,enjoyably,they appreciate it,and they want more.Taaa-daaa!!
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Good points. I agree with you on the aspect of training in a realistic fashion. I think that many times, this is the problem with clips, especially with whats been posted for discussion....we see things done with no resistance, which of course is fine, while the person on the clip is trying to make their points. But, after that, it'd be nice to see the same thing done with some resistance/aliveness, etc.
I dont see any issue with fitting in some Kenpo stuff on the ground, but likewise, I do feel that its important to understand how the grappler works, and IMO, thats only going to happen by working with a grappler.
My 'time crunch' is mainly due to my job. I works nights with rotating days off. This effects all of my training, not just BJJ. But I make do. I still get my training in. I'm fortunate to have teachers who accomodate my crazy shifts.
Anyways...I've heard some people say that there isn't as just jujitsu in Kenpo as there used to be, and I hear others say the opposite, that its still all there. Guess it depends on who you're training with.
BTW, nice clip. When I have a bit more time, I'll check out all of your other clips.
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ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Good points. I agree with you on the aspect of training in a realistic fashion. I think that many times, this is the problem with clips, especially with whats been posted for discussion....we see things done with no resistance, which of course is fine, while the person on the clip is trying to make their points. But, after that, it'd be nice to see the same thing done with some resistance/aliveness, etc.
I dont see any issue with fitting in some Kenpo stuff on the ground, but likewise, I do feel that its important to understand how the grappler works, and IMO, thats only going to happen by working with a grappler.
My 'time crunch' is mainly due to my job. I works nights with rotating days off. This effects all of my training, not just BJJ. But I make do. I still get my training in. I'm fortunate to have teachers who accomodate my crazy shifts.
Anyways...I've heard some people say that there isn't as just jujitsu in Kenpo as there used to be, and I hear others say the opposite, that its still all there. Guess it depends on who you're training with.
BTW, nice clip. When I have a bit more time, I'll check out all of your other clips.
The primary traditional way to know what a competent experienced grappler will do is to grapple with a competent grappler.The most universal and consistent training paradigms for grappling are completely aligned with grappling sports/martial arts like wrestling,judo,bjj,sambo,etc. Grappling also includes MT wing chun kenpo and practically every martial art on earth,but the most developed and well known training methodologies go hand in hand with the sport that's big and uses these methods the most.In the USA,that's wrestling followed by judo and bjj.Why is that important? Because we can easily find ourselves embracing the methods for a specific sport or sports and conflating these SPORTS with "grappling" and "groundfighting" as a whole...especially since these sports are quite effective at grappling and have a giant arsenal in that range of combat that is of the first importance to any martial artist and which dramatically amplifies the lethality of our Kenpo.
We need to learn how to grapple.We need to study and train with an array of performance oriented grapplers,their coaches who design training sessions,workouts,diets,game planning,etc. for their grappling athletes.We NEED that in the worst way.But we need to do this in order to absorb the ESSENCE OF GRAPPLING for the purpose of amplifying our Kenpo skills.In other words,we absorb what is useful and use that knowledge in order to defeat opponents with only or primarily that skill set.
We need to take that same mindset to firearms,knife and stick play,multifights,escapes,jointlocks,forms,drills,etc.We need to be constantly studying the developing methods of sports and combat performance and apply that info to the huge huuuge arsenal that Kenpo offers us.
I will display these concepts via video too.If you've seen my latter videos,you will see that I give a step by step demo of the technique then follow that immediately with unscripted sparring wherein the specific skill set is tested against whatever attack and resistance that my opponent cares to offer (this is called Isolated Sparring).
I think that sometimes, many people will view thigns like MMA, BJJ, as sports, and feel that those methods will not work for something like Kenpo. I disagree due to the fact that nothing says that those methods can't be adapted to what you're doing. 99% of the time people hear BJJ, grappling, wrestling, and the first thing that comes to mind is the ground. Well, of course you're going to be on the ground, but that doesnt mean that you have to make it look like a 30min grappling match on concrete.
People will disagree, but IMO, I feel that you need to work with people who specialize in a particular area, if you want to get good. I wouldn't talk to a truck driver for advice on flying a plane.
And yes, regarding the last part of your post...when I train something, I start off slow, everything compliant, and gradually work up to the full resistance. IMO, thats the best way to go.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
The issue of focusing on a specialization in grappling is both common sense and can be fraught with that special passionate disagreement that alpha personality types tend to bring to issues of import to them,so I tend to be both forthright about my opinions and respectful of the perspectives of others but without the taste for "static" purely for the sake of "static" or disagreement.It makes perfect sense to NOT talk to a truck driver for advice on flying a plane,and it makes imho at least perfect sense to remind most of us that the sport paradigm of bjj is largely applicable to self-defense in unarmed one on one situations and Gracie Jiujitsu specifically is much more applicable to self-defense as a whole than the tourney oriented bjj is or may ever be.
But this discussion tends to then enter the realm of which grappling art is the most "complete",and this is where opinions tend to sharply diverge and that special ardor of alpha personality types tend to shine flare and clash the most.I wouldn't talk to a truck driver about flying planes,I'd talk to a pilot of the relevant plane type.But if the issue was operation of a mechanical conveyance of mass transportation,I'd get somebody certified at the highest levels I could who could operate trains,trucks,plains,submarines,space shuttles,etc. all the way down to skate boards and pogo sticks.Lol.In that vein,and if the wealth of grappling instruction options were open? I'd recommend a good catchwrestling or judo-sambo school as the base for grappling instruction.If you had to go to a "one-stop" school that offered all options? I'd recommend a school like mine or Burton Richardson's JKDU or Matt Thornton's Straightblast Gym.Since I lean toward the tremendous importance of the character building that is specific to TMA as an utterly essential component to functional self-defense,I prefer Gyms like mine which nail everything including forms and traditional weapons to a vibrant self-defense system,high performance athleticism (if you weren't an athlete when you came in,you WILL BE by the time you reach White Belt,lol),diet,regular competition in practically every form of competition style there is,but first and foremost street preparation and personal development.
Due to the varying options available to the general public,when it comes to grappling only disciplines? I tend to recommend old skool international style Judo over any others as they have athleticism,wider availability to the public,the entire arsenal of wrestling,many techniques from Russian Sambo,and Judo merged into an essential mix.The gi option better prepares you to use your opponent's clothing--even his ARMOR,as I actually had that experience once--against him in ways that he wouldn't be prepped for if he wasn't familiar with Judo.Judo's newaza isn't generally as intricate as bjj's newaza (I'm excluding Kozen Judo from this discussion for the sake of brevity) but Judo tends to produce the more capable,more athletic overall grappler imho.It's not accidental that most of the bjj luminaries have black belts in Judo but the converse is NOT true,and it's emphatically my opinion that most Olympian Judoka will mop the floor with most of the top flight bjj practitioners.Thus my recommendation.
Yes,I know that Chin Na is ill,and so is shuia chiao,so is Shackle Hands and Ungala and various amazing Hindu disciplines,etc.But the availability of it in the U.S.A.,its reputation,etc. is nothing like that of Judo.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
I don't think there's anything I could add to the thread that hasn't already been addressed, especially by MJS and stevebjj. Many good points...
I will say too many instructor's egos about their root style prevent them from growing and actually endanger their students. Put the ego aside, and if you're a "kenpo guy" and want to really learn how to deal with a guy on the ground; including how to escape and recover, then go find a BJJ or Grecko guy and train with them. Don't just "make stuff up."
I will say too many instructor's egos about their root style prevent them from growing and actually endanger their students. Put the ego aside, and if you're a "kenpo guy" and want to really learn how to deal with a guy on the ground; including how to escape and recover, then go find a BJJ or Grecko guy and train with them. Don't just "make stuff up."
Without a doubt. The problem I have faced, is that while going to Judo and BJJ schools, I found out what they would do, in their realm, in a static setting, no more, no less.
What I wanted to know was 1.) What do they do, how do they function 2.) what will they do, how will they function against my Kenpo/Kali etc 3.) What do I need to address in my training... which is based on how they handle what I present.
The problem lies in the fact that when I attempt this experiment in traditional grappling schools or with guys who are grappling oriented all I hear is "Hey you can't do that.."
And thus it is only marginally beneficial.
They typically aren't interested in trying the BJJ in a context that isn't, well, BJJ or MMA with its attendant rules. They are just like the Kenpo guys who don't want to grapple because they think they have it all already and to be proven contrary hurts their ego. Grapplers don't want to come to the realization that yes, the rules of competition greatly enhance your arts functionality, and yes, I just might get to my knife while you are working to pass my guard etc etc...
Just like with anything, it has to be pressure tested to some degree. Static competition is part of that, but a personÂ’s BJJ is only so pressure tested until they open up their experimenting and try it against multiple attackers, armed attackers and mean nasty biting clawing eye gouging ones. I donÂ’t see that happening in grappling schools, and with the few who have tried it with me, well, their paradigm was permanently altered.
I have enjoyed your posts so far, and watched several of your videos, thanks for posting!
MJS, we typically see pretty eye to eye on this stuff, so this is likely just semantics, nuance, details etc....but;
But they are sports, aren't they? MMA as we use the term these days is practically synonymous with the UFC, Octagon etc.... Sure, the root is "mixed martial arts" which could mean anything, but colloquially it means "I study boxing, MT Kickboxing, BJJ or wrestling" and they do so in the context of the sporting rules.
When I read your quote and see the word "methods" I think of the methods BJJ and MMA use in training and preparing for a sporting event - which are in many ways incompatible or counter to SD training. Competition places arbitrary constraints that SD situations do not have. For this reasons, underlying philosophy and subsequent methods are in fact very important.
Now, I'm splitting hairs here and this is just nuance, however it is worth fleshing out IMHO. Do you disagree? And if so, why do you feel the need to add the qualifier "those methods can be adapted".
My thoughts are that you actually agree, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need for adapting.
I agree with the essence of what you are saying, and we have talked about this enough that I know you evaluate your training add and adapt as needed... but how many really do that? The sad fact is most do not, and most honestly think, I go to bjj class one night a week, I have grappling SD covered. They really don't, if they don't work hard to adjust the METHODS and the PHILOSOPHY to one that fits real life SD.
It doesn't mean that because you are conditioned from prior training and experience to know it should not mean that. In general, BJJ guys and MMA guys think it does mean that. I'm sure you have heard from your grappling buddies, just like I have "Kenpo/Kali/Boxing/TKD.... oh, I'll just get him on the ground and submit him." Oh, really?
Nuance again but consider this;
If your concern is SD, then why would you ask someone who specializes in Greco wrestling or BJJ to help you with ground self defense? It isn't what they are specializing in.
Using your analogy; a truck driver is trained. A truck Driver is licensed. A truck driver operates a large, complex and potentially dangerous vehicle.
So far all of this fits a pilot right? The difference is that a truck is not a plane, and the road is not the sky. (I know duh..)
Apply the same logic to a BJJ guy.
A BJJ guy is trained, he grapples... on the ground. But a BJJ match, a wrestling match... is not a life and death street fight. So, why do we ask them to help us prepare for a life and death (ground) street fight? WE SHOULDN'T unless we do so with our eyes wide open to all the problems, to all the context, to all the techniques and ideas they teach that we will need to drop or change or... adapt.
Now, I know you do this.. but I know the vast majority do not. Which is why I come on the forums yelling no no no just taking a BJJ class doesn't fix your ground game as it relates to self defense and combatives.
The DTE (Direct Torres Escrima) head instructor I am currently training under has 20+ years of Kali/Escrima/EPAK/amateur boxing/Lima Lama Kung fu/Judo and competitive western wrestling. He has an associate instructor come in on Thursdays who is a BJJ black belt, but he over sees the class and constantly makes changes. I can tell you, his take on BJJ and the other grappling arts is fascinatingly different from other practitioners of those same arts. It has been awesome seeing his adaptation of those arts to a combative application.
It has very much cemented my views on the changes that are absolutely mandatory when trying to apply BJJ etc to real life SD.
Redundant philosophical soap box rant concluded. Thank you all for your patience.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I have a hard time believing that you can't find anyone at the BJJ or Judo schools who isn't up for some friendly crosstraining. Why not try hooking up with some of the guys over at Bullshido.com for a throwdown? I haven't been to one, but my impression is that they're douchebag and ego free places to try stuff out against guys who train in different styles.
Point is, if you're not finding what you're looking for, I'd recommend not giving up. There are tons of guys I know who are game for anything. You can try some stuff out, they can try some stuff out. Win/Win.
As I said earlier, you don't have to TRAIN BJJ to get together and work out with guys who do. If you don't want to train in BJJ, that's great. Your choice. But if you want to see how things work against a jitsuka, you need to try them out with a competent jitsuka. Otherwise, it's delusion, and if you're training for SD, it might be a dangerous delusion.
Point is, if you're not finding what you're looking for, I'd recommend not giving up. There are tons of guys I know who are game for anything. You can try some stuff out, they can try some stuff out. Win/Win.
As I said earlier, you don't have to TRAIN BJJ to get together and work out with guys who do. If you don't want to train in BJJ, that's great. Your choice. But if you want to see how things work against a jitsuka, you need to try them out with a competent jitsuka. Otherwise, it's delusion, and if you're training for SD, it might be a dangerous delusion.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Without a doubt. The problem I have faced, is that while going to Judo and BJJ schools, I found out what they would do, in their realm, in a static setting, no more, no less.
What I wanted to know was 1.) What do they do, how do they function 2.) what will they do, how will they function against my Kenpo/Kali etc 3.) What do I need to address in my training... which is based on how they handle what I present.
The problem lies in the fact that when I attempt this experiment in traditional grappling schools or with guys who are grappling oriented all I hear is "Hey you can't do that.."
And thus it is only marginally beneficial.
They typically aren't interested in trying the BJJ in a context that isn't, well, BJJ or MMA with its attendant rules. They are just like the Kenpo guys who don't want to grapple because they think they have it all already and to be proven contrary hurts their ego. Grapplers don't want to come to the realization that yes, the rules of competition greatly enhance your arts functionality, and yes, I just might get to my knife while you are working to pass my guard etc etc...
Just like with anything, it has to be pressure tested to some degree. Static competition is part of that, but a personÂ’s BJJ is only so pressure tested until they open up their experimenting and try it against multiple attackers, armed attackers and mean nasty biting clawing eye gouging ones. I donÂ’t see that happening in grappling schools, and with the few who have tried it with me, well, their paradigm was permanently altered.
I have enjoyed your posts so far, and watched several of your videos, thanks for posting!
MJS, we typically see pretty eye to eye on this stuff, so this is likely just semantics, nuance, details etc....but;
But they are sports, aren't they? MMA as we use the term these days is practically synonymous with the UFC, Octagon etc.... Sure, the root is "mixed martial arts" which could mean anything, but colloquially it means "I study boxing, MT Kickboxing, BJJ or wrestling" and they do so in the context of the sporting rules.
When I read your quote and see the word "methods" I think of the methods BJJ and MMA use in training and preparing for a sporting event - which are in many ways incompatible or counter to SD training. Competition places arbitrary constraints that SD situations do not have. For this reasons, underlying philosophy and subsequent methods are in fact very important.
Now, I'm splitting hairs here and this is just nuance, however it is worth fleshing out IMHO. Do you disagree? And if so, why do you feel the need to add the qualifier "those methods can be adapted".
My thoughts are that you actually agree, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need for adapting.
I agree with the essence of what you are saying, and we have talked about this enough that I know you evaluate your training add and adapt as needed... but how many really do that? The sad fact is most do not, and most honestly think, I go to bjj class one night a week, I have grappling SD covered. They really don't, if they don't work hard to adjust the METHODS and the PHILOSOPHY to one that fits real life SD.
It doesn't mean that because you are conditioned from prior training and experience to know it should not mean that. In general, BJJ guys and MMA guys think it does mean that. I'm sure you have heard from your grappling buddies, just like I have "Kenpo/Kali/Boxing/TKD.... oh, I'll just get him on the ground and submit him." Oh, really?
Nuance again but consider this;
If your concern is SD, then why would you ask someone who specializes in Greco wrestling or BJJ to help you with ground self defense? It isn't what they are specializing in.
Using your analogy; a truck driver is trained. A truck Driver is licensed. A truck driver operates a large, complex and potentially dangerous vehicle.
So far all of this fits a pilot right? The difference is that a truck is not a plane, and the road is not the sky. (I know duh..)
Apply the same logic to a BJJ guy.
A BJJ guy is trained, he grapples... on the ground. But a BJJ match, a wrestling match... is not a life and death street fight. So, why do we ask them to help us prepare for a life and death (ground) street fight? WE SHOULDN'T unless we do so with our eyes wide open to all the problems, to all the context, to all the techniques and ideas they teach that we will need to drop or change or... adapt.
Now, I know you do this.. but I know the vast majority do not. Which is why I come on the forums yelling no no no just taking a BJJ class doesn't fix your ground game as it relates to self defense and combatives.
The DTE (Direct Torres Escrima) head instructor I am currently training under has 20+ years of Kali/Escrima/EPAK/amateur boxing/Lima Lama Kung fu/Judo and competitive western wrestling. He has an associate instructor come in on Thursdays who is a BJJ black belt, but he over sees the class and constantly makes changes. I can tell you, his take on BJJ and the other grappling arts is fascinatingly different from other practitioners of those same arts. It has been awesome seeing his adaptation of those arts to a combative application.
It has very much cemented my views on the changes that are absolutely mandatory when trying to apply BJJ etc to real life SD.
Redundant philosophical soap box rant concluded. Thank you all for your patience.
^^^I love this guy! I even love the quotes in his sig!
The fact is that you're RIGHT.The rules of bjj,judo,catch,amatuer wrestling,etc. preclude many of the worst case scenarios that crop up in SD from occurring.Sneak attacks,multifights,"dirty techniques",weapons,predatory attacks,combinations of the above,attempts to run you over with a car,home invasions while you're sleeping,etc.I have seen and read many a fascinating argument postulated by Matt Thornton and Instructors of SBG that address this matter and in many ways I agree with them.In a nutshell,they argue that the sport combat systems foster great skill and facility not only in their specific sport but in the DELIVERY SYSTEMS for those kinds of attacks.Basically,if you're a kickboxer? You have the foundation to adapt say TKD and boxing to your arsenal alot more functionally and faster than say a tai chi guy's method of training and background would allow him to. SBG guys also work stick and knife very realistically,so they have the foundation to apply their weaponry to their skilled submission groundwork,although I've only seen Burton Richardson's JKDU guys do that (I've seen people apply their weapon skills on the ground,but generally their ground skill sucked but their weapon skill was superior,so the overall perception of the skill sets applied was clearly uneven).
Your instructor is a marvel,a treasure,a gem...stay with him and learn as much as you can! Lol.
Now...sport grappling guys and SD...yeah...
...I've had that experience too.My good friend and fellow Kenpo Master Rank instructor "kenpoOG" pointed out years ago that the grapplers and MMA guys are rapidly forming a nouveau "traditionalism" regarding an inflexible knee-jerk intolerance toward arts/approaches which isn't the sanctioned MMA or grappler methods and perspectives.Truthfully,I didn't find a significant number of people willing to roll with me AND apply SD considerations like weapons,multifights,"dirty tactics",etc. and I too ran into the unperturbable blitheness that many of them have regarding SD."I'll just take him down." "What if you're being carjacked?" "I'll just raise my hands,pretend I'm going along with him and take him down." "You'll get shot." "I'll do better than your karate would do,pajama boy!" "You wear a gi in your bjj class,so you're a pajama boy too." "Ours are BETTER!"
Or...
(Grappler X shoots on me,I sprawl,he pulls guard,works sweeps,triangles,etc.I catch him with a Tiger Claw to his pubic hair through his gi pants and pull on those mugs.His guard POPS OPEN in surprised pain,I drill him with 5 Swords,he covers BUT IS BEING STEADILY BOMBARDED,I pass guard and go immediately to Dance of Death,the assistant instructor goes:"HEY YOU CAN'T DO THAT WILD CRAZY ***** IN HERE!" and my partner goes:"You can't go ape **** in my guard like that!" "Uhh,I didn't hit you hard at all,I just SURPRISED YOU and I just KEPT HITTING.But didn't you just tell me that your bjj would suffice to take a guy down and tap him? I'm only a blue,you're a purple,why didn't you tap me?" "I didn't know you were ****in gonna go ****in ape **** on me! And you know bjj.How many bad guys know bjj?" "Can you afford to find out in the midst of protecting your daughter from a carjacking rapist that your whole battle plan is that the bad guy doesn't know bjj...and you suddenly you find out that not only does he know bjj,HE HAS A GUN TOO? Cuz...you know...he wouldn't car jack you with his bjj.He'd look kinda silly butt scooting up to you and goin:"GIMME YA DAMN CAR KEYS!"...)
^^^THIS HAPPENED TO ME
So what I had to do was get an informal circle of grapplers who cross train with each other to also be cool with trying some of my "crazy SD stuff" while we worked out together,and it speedily caught on.I mean SPEEDILY.Our group has doubled in size and would have quintupled but we didn't want to have too many guys and personalities clashing too soon.We wanted to keep our informal circle informal fun high quality and minimum fuss.I suggest this method to anyone who doesn't have the time for or the access to a subgrappling class.I also suggest that you buy and study the DVDs of grappling arts that are functional and appeal to you...whatever they are.Then apply that knowledge to your base art.
Regarding thee ole SPORT V SD/STREET debate? Bottom line: it's easier to train SD functionally and downgrade to the sport combative side,than it is to start with the strengths and weaknesses of sport combat and UPGRADE TO SD.
Remember how Master Lloyd Irvin disarmed 2 armed men who stormed into his house and nuetralized Brandon Vera,while having Master Lloyd's wife at gunpoint? They also held Master Irvin at gunpoint and marched him into the back room.Imagine if all Master Irvin could do would be to grapple sans any real weapons defense proficiency.It could've ended very badly for him,his kids,and Brandon Vera.
Just recently a UFC fighter got stabbed in the shoulder with a knife during a fight outside a bar.I think he'd have a better chance at escaping the encounter unscathed or turning the tables on his attacker in that SD situation if he had say Burton Richardson's Battlefield Kali or my WEAPON ATACX to add to his MMA arsenal.Train for street.Ratchet down to sport.Imho functional SD includes the main components needed to have fun and compete well in tourneys.Have fun doing both.
And if you can? Please leave a comment on the videos of mine that you watch and find comment worthy.I very much enjoy your posts and look forward to more conversation with you and the other keen minds on this site.
My apologies for not being as clear.
Usually, when I talk of grappling, I'm speaking in general terms. In other words, I usually say any grappling training, any being defined as BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, JJJ, etc. All of the grappling arts have something to offer IMHO. As for Burton and Matt...yes, I like what they have to offer.
Yes, we do.
Agreed, and I myself have said many times, that under pressure, you will probably revert back to muscle memory. Will a MMA fighter think of an eye shot or will the rule of no eye shots be engrained, and he wont do them, where as a Kenpo guy might. My point was simply, while BJJ is typically geared towards sport and competition, I feel that it is possible to take the basics and gear them to what your training needs are. Isn't that what Mr. Speakman and Mr. Mills do? They're taking grappling moves and making them apply to Kenpo.
Yes, you see the point I was trying to make. My apologies for the poor wording.
I agree that training in a grappling art is beneficial to Kenpo. I disagree with those that say its all in there, you dont need to go to those other arts, etc. How many actually take the step and go look at other things? You're right, probably not that many. Agreed.
Nuance again but consider this;
If your concern is SD, then why would you ask someone who specializes in Greco wrestling or BJJ to help you with ground self defense? It isn't what they are specializing in.
Using your analogy; a truck driver is trained. A truck Driver is licensed. A truck driver operates a large, complex and potentially dangerous vehicle.
So far all of this fits a pilot right? The difference is that a truck is not a plane, and the road is not the sky. (I know duh..)
Apply the same logic to a BJJ guy.
A BJJ guy is trained, he grapples... on the ground. But a BJJ match, a wrestling match... is not a life and death street fight. So, why do we ask them to help us prepare for a life and death (ground) street fight? WE SHOULDN'T unless we do so with our eyes wide open to all the problems, to all the context, to all the techniques and ideas they teach that we will need to drop or change or... adapt.
Now, I know you do this.. but I know the vast majority do not. Which is why I come on the forums yelling no no no just taking a BJJ class doesn't fix your ground game as it relates to self defense and combatives.
The DTE (Direct Torres Escrima) head instructor I am currently training under has 20+ years of Kali/Escrima/EPAK/amateur boxing/Lima Lama Kung fu/Judo and competitive western wrestling. He has an associate instructor come in on Thursdays who is a BJJ black belt, but he over sees the class and constantly makes changes. I can tell you, his take on BJJ and the other grappling arts is fascinatingly different from other practitioners of those same arts. It has been awesome seeing his adaptation of those arts to a combative application.
It has very much cemented my views on the changes that are absolutely mandatory when trying to apply BJJ etc to real life SD.
Redundant philosophical soap box rant concluded. Thank you all for your patience.
I know, it does seem odd. Why go to someone who spends 99% of their time on the ground, so we, as stand up fighters, can learn the ground...when thats not where we really wanna be? LOL. But just like I feel that the MMA, BJJ, wrestler, etc, guy should work stand up, weapons, etc., and adapt their training accordingly, we should do the same thing.
This is certainly turning into a great thread.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Yes, we do.
Agreed, and I myself have said many times, that under pressure, you will probably revert back to muscle memory. Will a MMA fighter think of an eye shot or will the rule of no eye shots be engrained, and he wont do them, where as a Kenpo guy might. My point was simply, while BJJ is typically geared towards sport and competition, I feel that it is possible to take the basics and gear them to what your training needs are. Isn't that what Mr. Speakman and Mr. Mills do? They're taking grappling moves and making them apply to Kenpo.
Yes, you see the point I was trying to make. My apologies for the poor wording.
Agreed.
I know, it does seem odd. Why go to someone who spends 99% of their time on the ground, so we, as stand up fighters, can learn the ground...when thats not where we really wanna be? LOL. But just like I feel that the MMA, BJJ, wrestler, etc, guy should work stand up, weapons, etc., and adapt their training accordingly, we should do the same thing.
This is certainly turning into a great thread.
This is INDEED turning into a great thread! lol.
But there is something that both of you have commented on and that I have too that I think needs more emphasis,and that is this: TRAINING FOR SD ALLOWS AN EASIER TRANSITION TO SPORT COMBAT THAN VICE VERSA. Does anyone disagree? If so...why? If not...why NOT? What training experiences in your background incline you toward one conclusion over the other?
You know, I actually haven't given this idea much thought in the past (at least not in the way you are framing it) so I don't have a fully developed opinion.
Most of my training has been SD oriented, but I have competed too. I wrestled in high school, did some local boxing competitions and did a few regional MMA competitions back in the early 2000's.
My observations;
The wrestling and boxing were pretty easy to adapt to competition, since they are taught from that paradigm anyways.
Here is the negatives I found in trying to go from SD to competition (as I have popped in and out of competition off and on throughout my martial arts journey); As I spent more and more time with Kenpo and similar arts, my nuero muscular memory began to change, conditioned reactions changed etc. Immediate responses, second nature, no thought required responses became kicks to the groin and knee, open handed strikes to the throat, finger whips and jabs, elbows to the throat, spine and back of the head, hammer fists to the groin, and small joint breaks (fingers and wrist....) etc. They were so ingrained that when trying to compete later on, I realized I had to drop the vast majority of my arsenal, and that required constant "thinking in the ring" and thus hesitation.
In addition, my defenses changed. For example, as a boxer/kickboxer, I would simply "cover" using typical elbow blocks that any boxer or kickboxer uses, or I would slip / duck ets. While kenpo and Escrima use these same techniques, there is much more emphasis on open handed checks, traps, jams, fanning and parry's. Why? Obviously there are many reasons, but just as one example, while someone swing a fist at you (especially a gloved one) can be dealt with by covering (elbow block) or slipping, this can be very dangerous if the attacker had a knife that you missed. So, where as the boxer would be sliced up quickly blocking that way, the Kenpoist or FMA practitioner has a defensive skill set better suited to dealing with the edged weapon. Same applies to dealing with the changing angles a skilled club user will attack with. Arts like Kenpo, Krav Maga and many FMA's have built in defenses for that situation that a kickboxer just isn't equipped with. This presented a problem however, because once my hands were wrapped and gloved, I couldn't check, trap and parry to the same degree, and I had to struggle and adjust again. The same is the case with gunting in filipino arts. It' a great defensive/offensive technique that works particularly well with something in the hand (knife, pen, pencil etc) and can be made to work in some situations with knuckles - it is rendered useless in the ring with gloves however (which is why you get ***-clowns like Joe Rogan claiming such arts with trapping etc are worthless hence not in MMA).
So that is my thoughts and examples as to the difficulty of going from a primarily SD and combatives style to competition. It takes some real re-wiring of the current programming.
Now, as to the argument I would make in support of your statement; The above examples indicate that a person coming from a SD art simply has to dumb down what he knows to compete. However, someone coming from a competition only background simply has not been exposed to and is not aware of the many aspects of SD. This is why the MMA guys who come to our combatives class get stabbed and cut to death with our rubber chalk knives, and shot repeatedly with airsoft guns. They simply have no clue how to deal with it, and most genuinely thought that since they were bad a$$ in the ring/cage, surely they were in the street. Watching them deal with some of the combatives stuff (multi-attackers and weapons) is laughable.
To their credit though, they are in shape (which many self defense guys skimp on) they are aggressive (because they spar all the time, again which many SD guys skimp on) and they have a good sense of distance and timing from that sparring, they just have never seen or thought about how to use distance and timing when the variables change. I know that many TMA and SD arts do use live drills and sparring etc.. but unfortunately the mcdojo syndrome took over for a long time, and we got a bad rep as a result.
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