Kenpo Forms

[tigdra]

Short 1: It contains strictly defensive moves, various stances and blocks. It teaches peripheral vision, how to block while retreating and timing of hands and feet.

Now, you ask how many forms you need to learn the same concepts. Well, are the concepts really the same? What one learns at white, is going to be different from purple and different from brown. Take Short 2. More advanced stances, different methods of execution, etc. If we look at boxing, there are the basic punches. Now, a beginner isn't going to move or throw the punches like someone whos been boxing for 10yrs. The same with BJJ. A blue belt, purple and brown belt pretty much knows the same things a black belt does. Difference is, the black belt is 10 times better at execution.

Some arts doing have kata, so to speak, but if we look at kata, its a preset pattern. The boxer has various punches to pick from, and during focus mit work, will throw a variety of combos. They can be interchanged, but they're teaching a pattern so to speak...a drill. Its up to the student to be able to pull things from that drill and apply them.

Mike

Do you not learn what a fighting stance or horse stance is through a technique? Don’t you learn stepping back blocking settling your weight, timing and all that short 1 has to offer through techniques, yes. So what use is short 1 other than a repetition of concepts that you have already learned and will repeat constantly through you belts?

I have all of parker’s infinite insights books and have read many web pages on the subject.

A boxer’s combinations and memorization of them have a function; it is a means to an end.

A kata also has a means to and end, but it is not the same as a boxer’s. The function of a form in a style which has no techniques is to create set patterns so that you can learn concepts, build muscle memory and everything else everyone is trying to say. The function of a form in a style which has techniques must be more than just the things mentioned above, especially for those who practice American kenpo or EPAK. Why? Because Parker was known for reforming “old kenpo” due to many factors, one being the fact that “old school” kenpo has too many repititions; it was too long and not marketable.

Why don’t most schools of Krav Maga have forms? Because it is a style developed for defense, and it is a proven functional self defense system.


My main point is this (“Bear and the Ram” or “Eagle Pin” same technique different names depending on what type of kenpo you learn) is for two man attack which consists of two previously learned techniques teach you to flow from one technique to another.

Now what function would serve if I created another technique, not a variation to an existing technique, such as “bear and the ram” and instead of hammer fisting the groin chopping the groin (everything else would stay the same) and calling it “bear and the sheep”. I would have two techniques that teach the same concepts and are identical except for the chop. What use is that, they both teach you the same concepts, except for the chop which you will eventually learn if not already.

Same applies to bjj would you want to lean an “Americana” and then learn the exact same submission with your thumb in an incorrect position and call it “south Americana”?

You execute a kick, punch, etc one way in white and another in black but that isn’t because you practice your forms it is because you practice the techniques within the form which happen to be the same techniques you have already learned.

 

[tigdra]

i would like to read your response to your own question.

Respectfully,
marlon

My Response to my own question Marlon, is I believe forms should teach you something new and should progressively make you push not only your mental and muscular (in regards to muscle memory) limitations but also push your physical limitations in regards to limberness, breath and agility. Forms are for beauty, fitness and conditioning not for self defense (which doesn’t mean that something you learned in a form can’t be used in street self defense, because a simple punch can be used for self defense). If a style is only made up of forms then self defense applications can be read into it, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that performing this movement has god street applications. A back flip such as those done in kung fu can be used on the street but would you. Would you risk you life and do a back flip in a life or death situation, no.

Now if the school your in is a self defense school which focuses on techniques then forms would serve no purpose, such examples are boxing, krav maga, bjj.

But if you were a martial arts school which had techniques and still included katas then what function would a form take?

1. Tradition: wanting to do forms for the sake of martial tradition such as those in a karate school
2. Beauty and competition: you see you want to go to tournaments or you want your style to have a sense of artistic value.
3. Fitness: You want to apply certain positions or movements that aren’t necessarily functional for street self defense but are excellent for overall body development

Most kenpo forms aren’t traditional, they aren’t beautiful and they don’t make you more agile or physically fit (unless of course if you don them 50 times every day)

My personal belief after many years of taking kenpo is that most kenpo forms are useless unless if used for competition.

 

[Jdokan]

I think you're asking the wrong question....you should be thinking: What don't I learn from forms?......Like Mama Celeste once said...."it's in there"

 

[DavidCC]

My Response to my own question Marlon, is I believe forms should teach you something new and should progressively make you push not only your mental and muscular (in regards to muscle memory) limitations but also push your physical limitations in regards to limberness, breath and agility. Forms are for beauty, fitness and conditioning not for self defense (which doesn’t mean that something you learned in a form can’t be used in street self defense, because a simple punch can be used for self defense). If a style is only made up of forms then self defense applications can be read into it, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that performing this movement has god street applications. A back flip such as those done in kung fu can be used on the street but would you. Would you risk you life and do a back flip in a life or death situation, no.

Now if the school your in is a self defense school which focuses on techniques then forms would serve no purpose, such examples are boxing, krav maga, bjj.

But if you were a martial arts school which had techniques and still included katas then what function would a form take?

1. Tradition: wanting to do forms for the sake of martial tradition such as those in a karate school
2. Beauty and competition: you see you want to go to tournaments or you want your style to have a sense of artistic value.
3. Fitness: You want to apply certain positions or movements that aren’t necessarily functional for street self defense but are excellent for overall body development

Most kenpo forms aren’t traditional, they aren’t beautiful and they don’t make you more agile or physically fit (unless of course if you don them 50 times every day)

My personal belief after many years of taking kenpo is that most kenpo forms are useless unless if used for competition.

I think it's an intersting question that I am still trying to find a satisfactory answer to. I don't do AK but my system is technique based and has forms. I like the application of movements form forms as applications and the "cryptography" of that appeals to my intellecutal side. However is it a valuable use of training time? Is there something in there that is not also found in the techniques?

This is why I am more interested Sanchin and Yi Jin Jing over Pinan and Seisan.

 

[Flying Crane]

Many traditional arts from China, Okinawa, and Japan (the karate arts, at least) teach most, if not all, of the formal material thru kata. This is the approach to teaching and training that these arts have taken. They usually do not use a body of Self Defence techniques, the way Kenpo does. If they do use them, it is not nearly to the same extent that kenpo uses them.

Instead, useful techs are interpreted from the kata itself, and it is left to the student, with guidance, to figure out how this material can be useful. Of course then they practice together to use these ideas on each other, and develop skill.

So the approach that kenpo has taken in formulating the curriculum is somewhat unique. Arguably, you could say that the forms that are built with the techs are redundant. Of course not all kenpo forms (at least in the system that I study) are built out of the techs. But many of them are.

I can see your point. You could concentrate on the techs, and develop very useful ability and skill. You could eliminate the redundant katas, and even eliminate all kata if you want. It's your choice. If you know and understand the techs very strongly, you perhaps don't need the kata.

Personally, I like kata. that's just me, and it seems that you disagree. Fair enough, many people also feel that way. I feel that kata gives me a chance to work the techs another time, done in an "idealized" way. It's a chance to nit-pick the details in a way that may not be possible with the tech alone, when you are working on a partner.

Sure, it's an ideal rendition of the tech, and that often doesn't translate perfectly into reality. But the more ideally that you practice it, the closer to that ideal it can be done, in reality.

It is also a way to catalog the techs, so that you can remember them when you are practicing by yourself, without a partner. I find it easier to remember a list of techs in the context of a kata. If a kata contains 15 techs, I can work thru the kata without having to deliberately think of the name of all 15 techs, to practice them individually. I find that my brain simply works that way, and it's easier to remember a chunk of material in the context of a kata, rather than a pile of smaller bits of material, all floating around independently.

I'm in the Tracy system, which has a lot more techs than the later lineages have. Many of our techs never made it into a kata. Personally, I wish they all had. That way, by practicing the kata, I would be practicing the entire system. I wouldn't have to carry my list of techs with me, when I go to the gym. I've even experimented in the past, with creating my own kata, simply to catalog those techs that didn't make it into another kata.

 

[MJS]

Do you not learn what a fighting stance or horse stance is through a technique? Don’t you learn stepping back blocking settling your weight, timing and all that short 1 has to offer through techniques, yes. So what use is short 1 other than a repetition of concepts that you have already learned and will repeat constantly through you belts?

I have all of parker’s infinite insights books and have read many web pages on the subject.

A boxer’s combinations and memorization of them have a function; it is a means to an end.

A kata also has a means to and end, but it is not the same as a boxer’s. The function of a form in a style which has no techniques is to create set patterns so that you can learn concepts, build muscle memory and everything else everyone is trying to say. The function of a form in a style which has techniques must be more than just the things mentioned above, especially for those who practice American kenpo or EPAK. Why? Because Parker was known for reforming “old kenpo” due to many factors, one being the fact that “old school” kenpo has too many repititions; it was too long and not marketable.

Why don’t most schools of Krav Maga have forms? Because it is a style developed for defense, and it is a proven functional self defense system.


My main point is this (“Bear and the Ram” or “Eagle Pin” same technique different names depending on what type of kenpo you learn) is for two man attack which consists of two previously learned techniques teach you to flow from one technique to another.

Now what function would serve if I created another technique, not a variation to an existing technique, such as “bear and the ram” and instead of hammer fisting the groin chopping the groin (everything else would stay the same) and calling it “bear and the sheep”. I would have two techniques that teach the same concepts and are identical except for the chop. What use is that, they both teach you the same concepts, except for the chop which you will eventually learn if not already.

Same applies to bjj would you want to lean an “Americana” and then learn the exact same submission with your thumb in an incorrect position and call it “south Americana”?

You execute a kick, punch, etc one way in white and another in black but that isn’t because you practice your forms it is because you practice the techniques within the form which happen to be the same techniques you have already learned.

Umm...did you read my post? I see that you only quoted parts of it, so thats why I ask. Did you see when I said this:

You can find more breakdowns from the EPAK Infinite Insights books. Now, can these things be learned without kata? Sure. Alot of what we do is drilling the various aspects. Some do it by kata, some do it thru shadow boxing, actual sparring, bag work, etc. Again, its a simple drill.

So, you either didn't read the entire post, or you did, but cherry picked certain parts. Either way, I still stand by what I said. Kata is a small part of the puzzle and as I said above, much of what we do in kata is drilling and you don't need kata to do it.

Yes, you do learn similar things in self defense, that you'd also learn in kata, but keep in mind, that part of training and getting better in certain areas, requires you to isolate certain things. It'd be no different if during sparring, I only worked defense, or only worked offense or just threw hands with an emphasis on hook shots to the body. You're picking an area and working specifics. With Short 1, yes, you're learning defense, just like in Attacking Mace, where you're also stepping back and blocking. Again, the kata is simply isolating specific things.

You said this:

Why don’t most schools of Krav Maga have forms? Because it is a style developed for defense, and it is a proven functional self defense system.

Now, does this mean that Kenpo isn't effective? Kajukenbo has kata, yet I'd certainly say its a very effective art. So, I'm not sure if you're basing what is/is not effective by whether or not it contains kata, but if you are, I think that you're mistaken, because Kenpo is effective, kata or not. And as far as KM goes, AFAIK, no KM schools have kata. KM is an effective art, so don't take this as me saying it isn't.

IMHO, you seem like you have your mind made up and no matter what anyone says, you won't change, and that is fine. But, just because you don't find something effective or worthwhile, it doesn't mean that the next person won't have a different opinion.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

My personal belief after many years of taking kenpo is that most kenpo forms are useless unless if used for competition.

Try a few more years.
Sean

 

[MJS]

My personal belief after many years of taking kenpo is that most kenpo forms are useless unless if used for competition.

2 questions for you.

1) How long have you been training Kenpo?

2) Usually when I hear comment like this, the first thing I think of is that the student really doesnt have a solid understanding of the katas.

There was a time when I would do kata, and the person I was training under was not able to provide me with a clear cut explaination of what was happening in the kata. Fortunately for me, I was able to move on and train with people who were able to provide me with details. IMO, knowing what you're doing in the kata is very important. If someone is going thru the moves, without any purpose, they're missing out on alot.

Mike

 

[tigdra]

I'm in the Tracy system, which has a lot more techs than the later lineages have. Many of our techs never made it into a kata. Personally, I wish they all had. That way, by practicing the kata, I would be practicing the entire system. I wouldn't have to carry my list of techs with me, when I go to the gym. I've even experimented in the past, with creating my own kata, simply to catalog those techs that didn't make it into another kata.

I too do mostly tracy system but 8 years ago I started venturing out into parker's system while still learning tracy curriculum. I know to well of the many techniques in the tracy system, to tell you the truth I don’t mind but what does get me is that I learn “windmill guard” and then learn “circling serpent” which is the same technique except for an extra kick. Or even worse we learn “crashing elbow” for yellow and then learn “guiding the staff” for brown which happens to be almost the same technique yet the attack has changed.

I don’t mind learning “tiger and crane” even though it really doesn’t look like the original fuhok from the hung gar system.

But the thing that gets me the most is learning long two in blue and the applications to the techniques within it and yet again learning the applications somewhere in 3rd black

I get your point flying crane but to tell you the truth I don’t want to eliminated forms from kenpo I just think kenpo needs better forms, forms that challenge you both mentally and physically.

 

[Flying Crane]

I too do mostly tracy system but 8 years ago I started venturing out into parker's system while still learning tracy curriculum. I know to well of the many techniques in the tracy system, to tell you the truth I don’t mind but what does get me is that I learn “windmill guard” and then learn “circling serpent” which is the same technique except for an extra kick. Or even worse we learn “crashing elbow” for yellow and then learn “guiding the staff” for brown which happens to be almost the same technique yet the attack has changed.

I don’t mind learning “tiger and crane” even though it really doesn’t look like the original fuhok from the hung gar system.

But the thing that gets me the most is learning long two in blue and the applications to the techniques within it and yet again learning the applications somewhere in 3rd black

I get your point flying crane but to tell you the truth I don’t want to eliminated forms from kenpo I just think kenpo needs better forms, forms that challenge you both mentally and physically.

I have wrestled with this very issue for a long time. A few years ago I even began tinkering with the curriculum for my own use. I was no longer affiliated with any particular school, I was just an independent guy who trained in Tracy Kenpo some 20 years prior.

I systematically went thru the system and identified techniques that I felt were redundant in some way. I either eliminated some, or combined them into one master technique. Other techs that I felt were simply poorly designed, I eliminated altogether.

As I eliminated these techs, I looked at the forms. When a form had been made up of techs that I mostly had eliminated, I felt there was no longer any reason to keep the form. So I dumped it.

I went thru a couple of revisions in this way, and ultimately ended up with a list of about 120 techs, and katas Short 1-3, and Long 1-2. Nothing else. I planned to create my own kata to catalog these techniques, but I never finished that part.

For a while, I felt it was a good thing, streamlining the method. Gradually, I wondered about it. I hadn't trained with a Tracy instructor in about 20 years, and had been very separated from the system for a long time. I had been training in other arts during that time so I was certainly martially active, but I recognized that my kenpo was rusty, at best. But kenpo was my roots in the martial arts, and I began looking for a Tracy Kenpo instructor nearby, so I could retrain and hopefully understand the entire system better, before I made a bunch of revisions. After all, I might be revising a lot of stuff I didn't fully understand.

So I dumped my revisions, and was fortunate to find a very experienced and knowledgeable Tracy instructor nearby, one of the most senior in the Tracy system. I've been training with him now for about a year and a quarter, relearning everything from the ground up. I've almost finished working thru the material thru Shodan, which was the rank I held from before.

I came to see that my understanding of much of the material was incomplete. While I knew the gross understanding of the material, there were lots of details that I either had forgotten, or my first instructors weren't experienced enough to understand and teach to me. I also saw that many of the techs that I thought were redundant, were not. So it's been a very eye-opening experience, and I'm very happy that I decided to do this. It's a great group that I train with, and I have have a huge amount of respect for my teacher and classmates.

So, getting back to the topic.

I still wish the tech list was not so long as it is. It is just A LOT of material. I do think that there are some techs that I doubt I will ever really be able to use. Perhaps the system could use some streamlining, but I'm sure I'm not the one to do that.

However, what I have seen in the huge curriculum is sort of a "forced creativity". When I was paring down the curriculum, I felt that if the core bit of the tech was worked, then everything else was just subject to your own creativity. CRASH OF THE ELBOW and DIVIDED SWORDS and FLASHING WINGS are a good example. The base of the tech is similar, but how it is finished is different, so I felt why not combine this into one tech, drop the different endings, and expect to "get creative" with it. But the system itself kind of entails that already. Some people are very good at being creative on their own. Many are not. So the huge system sort of forces a certain level of creativity. Sure, some things are redundant, but it's the creativity that is important. After you have worked thru the system, you begin to recognize the creativity on your own. But I believe that for most people, they need to experience this guided creativity for a while, before they are ready to be creative on their own.

I believe that eventually, you need to create your own short list of favorite techniques, the ones that speak to you and you are able and likely to actually use if needed. Keep the whole system in tact, but recognize what is most useful and most likely to work, for you. And really work on that stuff and get creative with it.

My wife has been training with us as well, she recently earned her Purple Belt. Just the other day, we were talking about this idea of being creative with a limited amount of material, and I started pointing out how we could take CRASH OF THE EAGLE and apply it in many many ways that are not the choke from the rear that it is designed to be used against. It could be used against a grab from the side, grab from the front, even a punch. These movements can be applied all over. Once you understand that, you can get a lot of mileage out of less material. But I think most people need to go the miles first, before they really start to see this.

Compared to the Chinese arts that I have been fortunate to study, kenpo kata are not pretty. The Tracy system does include several Chinese forms that have been incorporated into the system, such as Tiger/Crane, Panther, Tam Tui, and 18 Hands Punching Set. These have Chinese origins outside of Kenpo, but within kenpo, these forms have been "kenpo-ized" so they fit within the kenpo methodology and tempo better. Yes, they are different from the originals. I have learned a version of Fu-Hok and Tam Tui from my Kung Fu sifu. While you can certainly see similiarites and a common origin, they are definitely different. I practice all versions.

But I see a lot of value in Kenpo kata as well. The material is very much in the open. You don't have to dig and search to understand how to use it. And this gives you a head-start for when you learn the Chinese material. You've already got a lot of experience in being able to interpret movement into useful technique. It makes it easier to make sense out of the Chinese material, whether you learn it in kenpo, or from a Kung Fu sifu.

When I was studying Wing Chun, my sifu admitted that he did not have an interpretation for a portion of one of the forms. And he had been practicing Wing Chun for about 35 years at that time. I immediately pointed out a couple of possibilites, which he was impressed by and he actually thanked me for those suggestions. I believe I was able to make these suggestions because of my experience with kenpo, and working with this huge body of techniques and kata.

Anyway, hope this helps...

 

[tigdra]

Yes, you do learn similar things in self defense, that you'd also learn in kata, but keep in mind, that part of training and getting better in certain areas, requires you to isolate certain things. It'd be no different if during sparring, I only worked defense, or only worked offense or just threw hands with an emphasis on hook shots to the body. You're picking an area and working specifics. With Short 1, yes, you're learning defense, just like in Attacking Mace, where you're also stepping back and blocking. Again, the kata is simply isolating specific things.

Now, does this mean that Kenpo isn't effective? Kajukenbo has kata, yet I'd certainly say its a very effective art. So, I'm not sure if you're basing what is/is not effective by whether or not it contains kata, but if you are, I think that you're mistaken, because Kenpo is effective, kata or not. And as far as KM goes, AFAIK, no KM schools have kata. KM is an effective art, so don't take this as me saying it isn't.

IMHO, you seem like you have your mind made up and no matter what anyone says, you won't change, and that is fine. But, just because you don't find something effective or worthwhile, it doesn't mean that the next person won't have a different opinion.

Mike

MJS I mean no disrespect and I am not here to change anyone’s mind I respect and encourage everyone’s responses. My mind is set on the forms as are those of every one else.

No I don’t think kenpo is useless I merely made the comparison to KM because KM is just defense and it is a prove art yet there are no forms. So if KM has no forms and it works what would say that kenpo without forms wouldn’t work. What could say that that kenpo without forms could not get the same results as bjj or KM which has no forms. In regards to KM schools and not having forms my comments are based on the fact that I have not been to all the KM schools around the worls and I don’t want to assume that every single school of KM has no forms.

2 questions for you.

1) How long have you been training Kenpo?

2) Usually when I hear comment like this, the first thing I think of is that the student really doesnt have a solid understanding of the katas.

Mike

I have been studying Kenpo for 22 years

I have been taught and read up on explanations in both Tracy and Parker systems
I know the meaning of the techniques variations to those techniques, hand isolations, and many tracy and parker concepts

I am not inexperienced, neither have I been taught by incompetent individuals. Again I repeat I mean no disrespect, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don’t think that Mine is the only correct one. I know there are better, smarter and more experienced individuals around the world. I am not an arrogant person just a disillusioned one, in regards to most kenpo forms.

 

[diamondbar1971]

I don't know about the rest of you, but as father time takes his toll, I for one am glad that I took the time to learn and understand the forms even though at times they did seem of not too much value at the time, except that they had to be learned and well executed in order to go to the next level, and now that I am pushing the big 60 in the next couple of years I have need to adjust the forms to fit my age, old otta shape bod and have the ability to either use or not use any part of a form, and change is not such a bad thing, there will be a time when everyone will have to adjust...Learn the forms for now and later you will be glad you did.

 

[MJS]

MJS I mean no disrespect and I am not here to change anyone’s mind I respect and encourage everyone’s responses. My mind is set on the forms as are those of every one else.

No worries. Everyone is certainly going to have their opinions and thats fine.

No I don’t think kenpo is useless I merely made the comparison to KM because KM is just defense and it is a prove art yet there are no forms. So if KM has no forms and it works what would say that kenpo without forms wouldn’t work. What could say that that kenpo without forms could not get the same results as bjj or KM which has no forms. In regards to KM schools and not having forms my comments are based on the fact that I have not been to all the KM schools around the worls and I don’t want to assume that every single school of KM has no forms.

Well, like I said, kata, IMO, is just a small part of the art. Some may feel otherwise and thats fine too. Some people may feel that without kata, you're not going to be able to fight. For myself, I don't rely on kata to learn to fight, although it does have applicable applications, its not my sole tool. I put on the gloves and spar.

As far as KM goes...I havent seen every KM school in the world either, but from the ones that I have seen, either in person or on the web, I never saw any reference to kata.

I have been studying Kenpo for 22 years

I have been taught and read up on explanations in both Tracy and Parker systems
I know the meaning of the techniques variations to those techniques, hand isolations, and many tracy and parker concepts

I am not inexperienced, neither have I been taught by incompetent individuals. Again I repeat I mean no disrespect, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don’t think that Mine is the only correct one. I know there are better, smarter and more experienced individuals around the world. I am not an arrogant person just a disillusioned one, in regards to most kenpo forms.

Thanks for your reply. I think it would be safe to say that there are many people, not just ones that train in Kenpo, but any art, that at one point during their training, have been disillusioned, confused, etc. Sometimes you need to see what else is out there.

Mike

 

[tigdra]

I systematically went thru the system and identified techniques that I felt were redundant in some way. I either eliminated some, or combined them into one master technique. Other techs that I felt were simply poorly designed, I eliminated altogether.

As I eliminated these techs, I looked at the forms. When a form had been made up of techs that I mostly had eliminated, I felt there was no longer any reason to keep the form. So I dumped it.

I still wish the tech list was not so long as it is. It is just A LOT of material. I do think that there are some techs that I doubt I will ever really be able to use. Perhaps the system could use some streamlining, but I'm sure I'm not the one to do that.
.

I too have devised my shorter version of the curriculum but I tweaked it a little. I would really like to talk about this subject more, maybe at a later time.

I too went to 4 different kenpo masters each having different insights into the techniques and forms, and I too went into different styles. At this present time I am taking northern shaolin kung fu, bjj and kenpo all at different schools.

I am presently working on my fourth black in kenpo and have gotten my third black through two different schools.

Flying Crane I would really enjoy hearing your thoughts on some of my ideas.

 

[tigdra]

well thanks to everyone who responded we could continue this into further details if anyone would like. My opinions stay the same I enjoyed learning the forms but after 22 years of doing kenpo I still find kenpo forms won't help me. I don't have a problem remembering techniques and I find that kenpo forms just take up more storage space in my brain I would rather substitute those forms with other forms that would fill the void that I believe kenpo has.

 

[MJS]

well thanks to everyone who responded we could continue this into further details if anyone would like. My opinions stay the same I enjoyed learning the forms but after 22 years of doing kenpo I still find kenpo forms won't help me. I don't have a problem remembering techniques and I find that kenpo forms just take up more storage space in my brain I would rather substitute those forms with other forms that would fill the void that I believe kenpo has.

Sure, lets continue the discussion. Question for you. In this post, you said,

"I get your point flying crane but to tell you the truth I don’t want to eliminated forms from kenpo I just think kenpo needs better forms, forms that challenge you both mentally and physically."

Could you go into more detail on this please? What exactly would you change and why?

Mike

 

[Ping898]

Do you not learn what a fighting stance or horse stance is through a technique? Don’t you learn stepping back blocking settling your weight, timing and all that short 1 has to offer through techniques, yes. So what use is short 1 other than a repetition of concepts that you have already learned and will repeat constantly through you belts?

What I think you assume is that just because you have learned them through the techniques is then everyone must have. In my experience kata is just another method of learning that compliments the technique. The reason you learn many many ways to do the same thing is you will never know what you will have to do exactly to defend yourself. So if you know multiple ways to do the same thing, if will be easier for you to modify your knowledge on the fly to handle the situation you are presented with.
The techniques are nothing more than suggestions. In real life someone will never move exactly as your partner in class does when you are practicing, so you will have to constantly adjust and make changes, so though you may start with one technique, you may soon find yourself doing a 2nd or 3rd of 4th by the time you get done.
I was always taught if you are stuck on a desert island and all you ever do is practice kata, you will retain all your kenpo knowledge....
I would suggest maybe you reflect more on the repetition and why there is so much of it, cause it is there for a reason throughout all of kenpo.

 

[tigdra]

QUOTE=MJS;962071]Sure, lets continue the discussion. Question for you. In this post, you said,

"I get your eliminated forms from kenpo I just think kenpo needs better forms, forms that challenge you both mentally and physically."point flying crane but to tell you the truth I don’t want to

Could you go into more detail on this please? What exactly would you change and why?

Mike[/QUOTE]

Personally I believe there is something lacking in kenpo. I believe that most kenpo individuals, due to a lack of well structured martial arts, key word art, aren’t very good with their legs. Sure their they are good with their legs but no where near as efficient as their arms or most tae kwon do individuals.

However as a defensive system kenpo is complete. It has a large encyclopedia of movements, mostly, depending whether it is tracy or parker system, it concentrates on efficient moves to defends one’s life.

But back to the important point as an art most of it’s forms, in my opinion lack leg conditioning and cardio. The upper body gets somewhat of a workout but the lower doesn’t.

My solution to this problem is to exchange the kenpo forms for forms that would serve its purpose. What I mean by this is that KM or BJJ don’t have forms, using that as a basis, defensive system don’t need forms. KM or BJJ isn’t criticized as a defensive system or lacks efficiency or usefulness due to not having forms.

Now seeing KM and BJJ in a artistic manner we could say that they do lack an aesthetic value which forms would fill. Seeing forms in this matter leads me to replace most kenpo forms with forms with excellent aesthetic value and whole body conditioning specifically targeting the lower body.
My recommendation would be to include kung fu forms into kenpo, specifically northern forms, since they concentrate more on legs than they do arms.

I know for many tracy kenpoist or kenpoista, whatever, this isn’t news. Tracy schools have “Tiger & Crane”, “Panther (book set)” and “18 hand set”.

The first two forms are Hung gar “like” forms which is a southern kung fu style that primarily focus on their upper body rather than their lower. I say “like” because they are kenpo versions of the original hung gar forms. The third form is self-explanatory

The only other Kung fu form that is worth bringing up is tracy’s tan tui, which is a severly bastardized excuse to it’s counterpart. Some of the movements are their but most of them have been so altered that they have lost all original applications and all basic conditioning. I say basic conditioning because while many kung fu schools teach tan tui as their first form kenpo teaches it as a black belt form.

I enjoy learning and teaching an art, so if I were to open my school I would teach kung fu forms. But if I was interested in teaching a defensive system then I would teach techniques w/o forms

MJS I hope this answers your question I could go into more detail I just didn't want to write too much.

 

[tigdra]

I would suggest maybe you reflect more on the repetition and why there is so much of it, cause it is there for a reason throughout all of kenpo.

Learning mostly tracy but also parker, I have seen and done variations of the techniques, especially in tracy. I agree repitition is essential, I just find it a waste of time to say that I am learning some thing new and yet it’s a bunch of old things put together with little bridges that allows them to connect which usually is done by not completing the techniques. Seeing both tracy and parker have allowed me to fill in many gaps and has awnsered many questions. I enjoy forms, I just don’t enjoy learning something all over again cutting a few things short adding a few alterations and naming it a form. Let me go into detail Short 1 instead of having it as it is I could add a snap/front kick with the foot that steps back and call it a whole new form. I could further say that you would be applying much more concepts into the form and that truthfully it may be similar to short one but there is more interpretation and complexity in it. Would you be excited to learn the form? I wouldn’t.

 

[Flying Crane]

Tigdra, I do understand what you are saying. I don't agree 100%, but neither do I disagree 100%.

I've got to think about it a bit and see what I might say.

Thanks for bringing up some pointed and difficult issues.

I do believe that sometimes the kenpo world likes to view the art (whichever version one practices) as something akin to perfection. I don't agree with that position. I do believe that it is an excellent system (at least in my own experience), but even so, I realize it isn't the right system for everyone, or at least portions of it perhaps don't work well or make sense for some people. I accept that about the art. I make no apologies for it, and I would not expect everyone to embrace it as the right thing for them. For many people, it is an excellent path to follow. For others, not so much or not at all.

I think it is worthwhile to examine these kinds of tough issues.