Kenpo Differences

[Eyedoc]

Just curious. I'm an isolated Orange belt (despite the white on my profile) and don't have a lot of exposure to other schools. Wondering about some of the differences in ideology/technique between Okinawan Kenpo and American Kenpo

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Eyedoc
Just curious. I'm an isolated Orange belt (despite the white on my profile) and don't have a lot of exposure to other schools. Wondering about some of the differences in ideology/technique between Okinawan Kenpo and American Kenpo

I asked my instructor years ago and he told me they were not even comparable at all. I've visited a shoringi Kempo class (if thats Okinawan?) and found my instructors words to be more than accurate. Most people who do kenpo will disagree with me but Kenpo or Kempo just means Martial art or more specificly the parameters defining the way you do your martial art. My point is that its different.
Sean

 

[8253]

Originally posted by Eyedoc
Just curious. I'm an isolated Orange belt (despite the white on my profile) and don't have a lot of exposure to other schools. Wondering about some of the differences in ideology/technique between Okinawan Kenpo and American Kenpo

As far as techniques go there are only so many ways to do things, though there may be differences in quantity of techniques. I believe that the main difference is in philosiphy.

 

[Nick Ellerton]

It is evident of differences even within American Kenpo circles, i viewed the link to watch those clips for kenpo and noticed some differences in stances and the cover out post technique but i mean this all comes from the many different ways in which a technique is taught philosophy etc.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

One of the most notable differences is the kata's/forms. Okinawan Kempo does traditional kata's. The newest kata's (Pinan) are around 80 years old. While American Kenpo forms were developed by Mr. Parker, they are newer compared to the Pinan Kata's. Okinawan Kempo tend to show more joint locking, choking, throws at earlier belt ranks compared to American kenpo. While being similar in ways they also have some differences.

 

[Rick Wade]

I am currently taking Okinawa Kenpo and have taken American Kenpo in the past. I personally like American Kenpo MUCH MORE for one simple fact. EPAK is much more (street) realistic you actually hit each other at most schools. In Okinawa Kenpo they do mostly Katas (Forms) and then analyze the bukai (application). To reach Shodan in my current system there are almost 50 Katas (weapons and open hand). I like how EPAK analyses the application and then understands how to generate power and speed. EPAK also allows for different body types. By this I mean you are allowed to modify a self-defense technique so that it will work better for you (you still have to know the text book version).

Just a (very) brief insight.

Thanks

Rick

 

[Rick Wade]

Stances are alot shorter in American Kenpo.


I really don't mean to throw stones. However, to compare the two it is correct to say Okinawa Kenpo is Traditional.

Okinawa = High School

American = Graduate Classes.


There is allot more meat to American Kenpo from Stances to strikes and theories. I consider American Kenpo is the Art that isn't finished yet.

Thanks
Rick

 

[Doc]

To have a basic understanding of the terms "Okininawan Kempo" Versus "American kenpo," a brief history lesson is necessary. When the Chinese Arts began the migration outside of China, at one point all of the embracing nations referred to the art initially as "Kempo." Kempo in Hawaii, Hawaiin kenpo. Kempo in Japan, "Japanese Kempo," or Shorinji (Shaolin) Kempo. Kempo in Okinawa, "Okinawan Kempo." Even the Koreans had a form of "Kempo" later changed to "Tang Soo Do."

My point is a simple one. Througout world martial arts history, the terms "Kempo and Kenpo" have always had a generic quality loosely related to its original lineage to China. In the original dialetcs "Kempo" was pronounced "Chuaan Shu or Chaun fa which in generic asian kanji is "Kempo." This culturally loose translation thus came to mean - "Hands of China or China Hand."

However the actual physical relationship between all the many nationalistic, cultural, and intellectual variables and interpretations has always been at best nebulus. Asian Countries, people, etc, wishing for various reasons to not want to be associated with the Chinese influence changed the names and dropped the "kempo" from their language or, as the Japanese did, simply re-interpreted the kanji to "empty hand" or "karate."

Ultimately, as stated, "Okinawan Kempo" evolved into the more well known "Okinawan te." "Te" from the Japanese simply meaning "hand" which culturally and nationalistically remove the art from it Chinese roots making it wholly, distinctively, and culturally (for some) Okinawan.

The Englisg speaking world, however had no language clash so "Kem/npo" retained its Chinese relationship and came to mean, in some circles, a methodology describing Western Hemisphere modern interpretations of Chinese Root material.

Ed Parker Sr. was the first to bring it to the mainland of America, revisit its Chinese Origin through Chinese Masters of the era and created or re-created "Chinese Kenpo." Ultimately he "Americanized" his interpretation but found it to be a poor commercial vehicle like all really good well taught sciences, and distilled it into his commercial motion driven vehicle that proliferates today.

But it is important to realize that all of Ed Parker Sr. interpretations still exist and in many cases still continue to evolve outside the mainstream of the commercial business vehicle, that came to be called "Ed Parker's American Kenpo."

Thus you have senior students like Steve Hearring teaching "Chinese Kenpo." Dave Hebler teaching "Original kenpo Karate." Chuck Sullivan too teaching his interpretation of his original fifties teaching of "kenpo Karate," and even my own evolution of the original Chinese Kenpo to SubLevel Four Kenpo.

I wrote a four part article on this very subject for the publishers of Inside Kung fu, that I believe is still available on line somewhere on one of their many sites.

 

[Eyedoc]

OK, you get an A. That is a lot of info and I thank you. Any thoughts on the technique differences or are they similar. Some say they are similar, some say they couldn't be more different (see thread). And with regard to the kata, are they longer in American?

 

[Doc]

OK, you get an A. That is a lot of info and I thank you. Any thoughts on the technique differences or are they similar. Some say they are similar, some say they couldn't be more different (see thread). And with regard to the kata, are they longer in American?

..... or to put it another way, there is no relationship between modern western "kenpo" and "Okinawan Kempo" philosophically or otherwise.

 

[Eyedoc]

..... or to put it another way, there is no relationship between modern western "kenpo" and "Okinawan Kempo" philosophically or otherwise.

Gotcha.

 

[camilyon]

Thus you have senior students like Steve Hearring teaching "Chinese Kenpo." Dave Hebler teaching "Original kenpo Karate." Chuck Sullivan too teaching his interpretation of his original fifties teaching of "kenpo Karate," and even my own evolution of the original Chinese Kenpo to SubLevel Four Kenpo.

I hope all is going well with you Doc . Is the implication here that Chuck Sullivan's IKCA Kenpo is his interpretation of the 50s stuff, virtually untouched by the Chinese kenpo era?

 

[Doc]

I hope all is going well with you Doc . Is the implication here that Chuck Sullivan's IKCA Kenpo is his interpretation of the 50s stuff, virtually untouched by the Chinese kenpo era?

What a strange question. While it is clear Mr. Sullivan is interpreting earlier material, you want me to say definitively what all of his influences were, or were not throughout his lifetime of martial study. While some things are obvious to the knowledgeable, my crystal ball is on the fritz. I don't even know what all of the influences are, or were on my own kids.

 

[Thesemindz]

Okinawan Kempo tend to show more joint locking, choking, throws at earlier belt ranks compared to American kenpo. While being similar in ways they also have some differences.

See this is the problem though.

In the American Kenpo I came up in, grabs, locks, chokes, throws, holds, hugs, and other stand up grappling techniques were taught from the very first introductory lesson. We had a huge emphasis on stand up grappling, and I would say that in general, the techniques and their applications were weighted towards grappling over striking. We were teaching mostly Parker techniques, with some Tracy included, but the biggest difference was emphasis.

That's why "kenpo" has become such a meaningless term. It's no different anymore than saying "karate." All it means is some form of martial art. You can't even say it means stand up martial art, or striking art, or chinese, japanese, or american martial art. It just means martial art.

And some people would probably even argue with that after watching some of the "kenpo" on youtube.


-Rob

 

[Doc]

See this is the problem though.

In the American Kenpo I came up in, grabs, locks, chokes, throws, holds, hugs, and other stand up grappling techniques were taught from the very first introductory lesson. We had a huge emphasis on stand up grappling, and I would say that in general, the techniques and their applications were weighted towards grappling over striking. We were teaching mostly Parker techniques, with some Tracy included, but the biggest difference was emphasis.

That's why "kenpo" has become such a meaningless term. It's no different anymore than saying "karate." All it means is some form of martial art. You can't even say it means stand up martial art, or striking art, or chinese, japanese, or american martial art. It just means martial art.

And some people would probably even argue with that after watching some of the "kenpo" on youtube.


-Rob

As for me, you're preaching to the choir brother. I've said it myself a trillion times here. People like to make definitive statements about what "kenpo" does or doesn't do or have, when because of the generic nature of the term, it truly in present context only means what the individual knows or does. It's totally personal. It is why I like discussing specifics and it makes kenpo style comparisons ludicrous.

 

[stone_dragone]

Is the implication here that Chuck Sullivan's IKCA Kenpo is his interpretation of the 50s stuff, virtually untouched by the Chinese kenpo era?

While I wasn't there when the IKCA's flavor of kenpo (we, too, call it Chinese Kenpo) was formed, I can speak a little on it's development based on conversations and readings. Bill Parsons can probably speak significantly better on the subject than I can, however.

Partial source: IKCA Website, History Section

In the early 1980's, Mr. Sullivan's Student, Mr. Vic LeRoux was going to open a new school and through discussion with Mr. Sullivan, they developed their current curriculum of kenpo basics, principles and concepts taught with significantly fewer formal techniques.

Mr. Sullivan's background is 100% kenpo under Mr. Parker from 1959 to Mr. Parker's death in 1990. Mr. LeRoux's background included chinese and Filipino arts as well as kenpo under Mr. Parker and Mr. Sullivan.

Since Mr. Sullivan was around for the Kenpo karate, the Chinese kenpo and the American kenpo, I can't say that it wasn't touched by the chinese kenpo era. I can say that the IKCA curriculum does reflect Mr. LeRoux's chinese influences, if not Mr. Sullivan's as well.

The IKCA curriculum is designed, in my opinion, to take on the characteristics of the one teaching it...i.e. if someone with a background in Kung Fu/Wushu learns it and teaches it, it will be distinctly more chinese. If someone with a Karate background teaches it, it might have a distinctly Japanese/Okinawan flavor to it. If you have no background, you will learn it as you are taught it, it all being kenpo.

My 2 cents.

 

[Danjo]

Here's one from Doc to me a while back on Kenpotalk:

Quote:
Originally Posted by

Chuck Sulivan began training during Parker's earliest days on the mainland and was doing the hard, mostly linear "Kenpo Karate" Parker imported from Hawaii, and essentially continues that interpretation. A look a t their current curriculum supports that perspective of very simple and direct.

AL & Jim left at the beginning of the "Chinese Kenpo" evolution and although there were varying degrees of crossover from one evolving method to another, there were at least 5 very clear and distinct philosophies, styles, and interpretations.

1. "Kenpo Karate" What Ed Parker was doing when he arrived on the mainland, first as a brown and later as a black belt opening shop in Pasadena around 54. Wrote the book of the same name and published it in 1961. Bought thousands of patches and got "stuck" with them. Teachers like Chuck Sullivan draw from this era.

2. "Chinese Kenpo" When Ed Parker discovered the vast knowledge available and embraced the Chinese Arts while studying with and under Ark Wong and Huemea Lefiti. Also where he met Jimmy (James Wing) Woo, and Danny Inosanto. Broke with the established "yudansakai." During this period he wrote "Secrets Of Chinese Karate" and published it in 1963. Notice the compressed time frame. People like Frank Trejo's instructor, Steve Hearring still teach this perspective in Pasadena.

3. "American Kenpo" Began the codification process of his early understandings of Chinese Kenpo into a distinct evolving American interpretation. Dropped all Japanese - Chinese language and non-essential non-American cultural accoutrements. Notice the lack of the word "karate," considered an insult to the Chinese. Some like Dave Hebler draw from the beginnings of this version.

4. "Ed Parkers Kenpo Karate" A series of personal issues causes Ed Parker to decide to enter the commercial marketplace and expand in the second half of the sixties. Looking for a method that differed from the kenpo franchises that preceded him that he felt were flawed, he drew upon his many "transfer" black belts from other styles. Stumbling upon "motion" as a base concept, it allowed him to create loose conceptual guidelines for already competent black belts. This further gave him the freedom to travel conducting seminars, belt tests, and selling, while seeing the majority of his "students" two or three times a year and usually once at the IKC. Most of the well known black belts came up under this system. Some better than others. Some spent their own dime and came to see Parker often when he was in town like Dennis Conatser who I always plug because I think he brilliant.

Some came very late in the eighties and is the reason they are not on the family tree. The rest came after Parker's death. Most of the older seniors rejected it and/or left. This was what he was sharing with a few private students in an effort to cash in on the publicity of Larry Tatum's student Jeff Speakman's movie, "Perfect Weapon." He hoped to rekindle a chain of schools that he directly financially controlled. All of his schools and his black belt students had defected years ago. He maintained only one profitable school run by Larry Tatum in the eighties until he changed personnel.

5. "Ed Parker's Personal American Kenpo" The ever evolving personal art of Ed Parker that included elements left out of his commercial diversion or off shoots and other interpretations as well. (nerve meridians, mat work, manipulations, structural integrity, etc) This included all the things that students couldn't duplicate because Parker didn't generally teach it. Here lies all the things that some have discovered is missing from his diversion art that he never wrote about anywhere. "Slap-Check" comes to mind. I gave what he shared with me my own name after he passed based on phrases Parker used to describe it to differeniate between it and other versions of what he taught. However in reality it is the "American Kenpo" Parker was utilizing before he passed away that was still evolving. Others that he may have taught may have other names for it, but to understand it, a person would have had to evolve with Parker into it because of a lack of its hard codification.
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