Kenpo differences - standardize or leave alone?
- Thread starter Goldendragon7
- Start date
W
WilliamTLear
Guest
Originally posted by kenpo3631
I shouldn't have lumped Mills in with the group I metioned...
No problem dude.
M
matthewgreenland
Guest
I believe that the "CORE" elements of EPAK are the same. Some instructors and organizations differ in opinion, but the core is constant. I wish that ego wasn't an issue. And, I know that diversity has its pros and cons. Maybe their wouldn't be this sense of "I'm doing it right and you're doing it wrong," if people would set their feelings aside. I think that the above quote is embedded in so many people's minds that they close down mentally if they are not hearing an affirmation to what they were taught. In a sense, this in analagous to religion and spirituality. So many feel that if what they hear differs from "THEIR" approach, it must be wrong. Could it be that none are wrong. It is simply yet another perspective? In my heart, I feel this is the case, at least for me.
K
Kirk
Guest
Ed Parker Jr at a seminar said (in so many words) that most
went to him after getting their b.b. through someone else ...
they'd say to SGM Parker 'how do you do Thundering Hammers?'.
He'd reply with, "how do YOU do Thundering Hammers?" because
everyone was different. And then he'd tell them how BEST to do
it given how they moved, their body style, their own arrogance,
and what not being a factor. Then they'd all go away thinking
that it was the ONLY way that tech/set/form should be done,
when what it actually was, was customized. That being the case,
it's possible that the CORE might vary from instructor to instructor.
And if THIS is the case, then it won't be too long before the
variants in the core are even wider.
went to him after getting their b.b. through someone else ...
they'd say to SGM Parker 'how do you do Thundering Hammers?'.
He'd reply with, "how do YOU do Thundering Hammers?" because
everyone was different. And then he'd tell them how BEST to do
it given how they moved, their body style, their own arrogance,
and what not being a factor. Then they'd all go away thinking
that it was the ONLY way that tech/set/form should be done,
when what it actually was, was customized. That being the case,
it's possible that the CORE might vary from instructor to instructor.
And if THIS is the case, then it won't be too long before the
variants in the core are even wider.
W
WilliamTLear
Guest
You took the words right outta my mouth. Seriously, I was going to post a response along those same lines.
Take Care,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems :asian:
Take Care,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems :asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Honestly, I do not believe that it will ever happen. Not anytime soon, anyway. Been too many years of too many differences, and too much slam dunking on each other between the various schools of thought.
Basics are all pretty much basics, and that is as it should be. There are some systems of Kenpo, however, that have very different basics, due primarily, to the philosophy of the founder of the system. Even at that, the differences can not be discounted or diminuated. They are there and they work.
The uniformity that we are thinking of does not seem to rear its head in other aspects of the martial arts. Look, for instance, at the differences in the various schools of Shorin-Ryu, Phillipine Martial Arts, and the various schools of "Kung fu". The truths of all of these variants are still true.
It will still be interesting to see what it all shakes out like in 5 or 6 more generations.
Dan :asian:
Basics are all pretty much basics, and that is as it should be. There are some systems of Kenpo, however, that have very different basics, due primarily, to the philosophy of the founder of the system. Even at that, the differences can not be discounted or diminuated. They are there and they work.
The uniformity that we are thinking of does not seem to rear its head in other aspects of the martial arts. Look, for instance, at the differences in the various schools of Shorin-Ryu, Phillipine Martial Arts, and the various schools of "Kung fu". The truths of all of these variants are still true.
It will still be interesting to see what it all shakes out like in 5 or 6 more generations.
Dan :asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Or by some know it all instructor that thinks he is the only one that knows all the material and that no one else does.
Forms "AND" Sets are expressions of basic skills
Why such a short list.......? What about Trejo, Huk, Tatum, Pick, Hancock, Mills, Chapel, Palanzo, or Tom Kelly?
Well, that is the trick right..... getting these guys together and shake up the bag and see what shakes out........ isn't it.
I agree with this statement totally!
:asian:
kenpo3631
Black Belt
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.....tsk, tsk, tsk
No cheap shots now....Besides...who might you be referring to?
DO you expext me to list all of the seniors. I would expect that more people would be in order, more than what I listed. Don't be so literal.
Do you honestly think Chuck or Dave would give up what they have with the IKCA or the OKKA to be on a standardization board?
Thanks
No cheap shots now....Besides...who might you be referring to?
DO you expext me to list all of the seniors. I would expect that more people would be in order, more than what I listed. Don't be so literal.
Do you honestly think Chuck or Dave would give up what they have with the IKCA or the OKKA to be on a standardization board?
Thanks
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Ohhhhhhh shuddup you mouth........
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
I take No cheap shots......... but.... Well, I can think of a few......
I don't recall saying that "anyone" had to "give up" anything of what they are currently a part of to be on a standardization board.
After conversations with several including Mr. Hebler, Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Mills, and several others......... I have received nothing but interest. The formation of this does not require anyone to leave their own organizations but rather to work together as individual heads of organizations toward common ground - American Kenpo. Just - if - how - why - when - etc are still being explored at this time....... but it is not a dead issue as of yet. Many of these men are not as egotistical as some think. But they all are Eagles in their own right......... and Eagles do not flock! But they can band together to protect a common habitat each with his own territory.
:asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Yes, all of them.............. lol
I'm not upset.......... just stating fact.
Several insinuations throughout several posts as to parking the egos at the door or no one will get along.............
to quote you ........ "DO you expect me to list all of the seniors. I would expect that more people would be in order, more than what I listed. Don't be so literal."
Several could be added.
:asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
like that dont you !
:asian:
:asian:
H
headkick
Guest
Probably to some degree, yes. Will it be? Probably not. I think one good thing is people from different organizations to get together on a regular basis to share ideas. If nothing else, you can see what you don't like. I think Mr. Speakman tries to do that with his camps. You were in Vegas this year, weren't you Mr. C? What was that punchline again?
My worry is:
"When does it stop being American Kenpo"
We tend to be all inclusive in an umbrella of Kenpo, and tolerate a lot of deviation when it comes to techniques, forms, sets, and some basics. When and who would decide when an organization strays too far afield (if in fact there is any such thing.) Think about James Ibrao's Kenpo as vs. Dennis Conatser's. Where the Priciples, Concepts, and Theories as developed by Mr. Parker are consciously applied, is that Kenpo? How about those arts that use them, but cannot articulate why they do what they do. Does it take standardization of techniques & forms ... or is it principles and concepts?
Very shakey ground here to me. I would love to see a cohesive Kenpo group with multiple associations doing essentially a similar system or art, I am just not sure it is possible at this point. Is Ron Chapel's SL-4 able to be reconciled with Paul Mills AKKI techniques? I don't know. In a perfect world maybe we could have perfect Kenpo. We know the umbrella of the Senior Counsel was not able to cover the members, or those left out intentionally? It was the right idea ... but you have to have active, willing, proactive participation, a committment to the goals, and a shared desire to drive toward the same end - and to "hold the line" rather than make exceptions due to seniority or "we don't know that" or numerous other complications all organizations have to deal with.
A little Organizational Psychology should tell you how difficult this noble goal would be. Standardization of at least a minimal level would ensure that no matter where you went, the Kenpo you know would be available. A noble dream, one worth fighting for, but do not discount the hurdles inherent in trying to resolve this. Everyone wants it probably, but who is willing to compromise the way they teach their art? It takes a big man/woman to subjugate his/her teaching to a "standard" that he/she may not agree with completly. Once again, where would we draw the line?
Whew!! Way too long a post. I have reason to wish it were easier. I do miss the days when Mr. Parker was the driving influence or source of the Kenpo out there. Even if it had changed ie. Tracy's or Mr. Mills, you knew where it came from.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
"When does it stop being American Kenpo"
We tend to be all inclusive in an umbrella of Kenpo, and tolerate a lot of deviation when it comes to techniques, forms, sets, and some basics. When and who would decide when an organization strays too far afield (if in fact there is any such thing.) Think about James Ibrao's Kenpo as vs. Dennis Conatser's. Where the Priciples, Concepts, and Theories as developed by Mr. Parker are consciously applied, is that Kenpo? How about those arts that use them, but cannot articulate why they do what they do. Does it take standardization of techniques & forms ... or is it principles and concepts?
Very shakey ground here to me. I would love to see a cohesive Kenpo group with multiple associations doing essentially a similar system or art, I am just not sure it is possible at this point. Is Ron Chapel's SL-4 able to be reconciled with Paul Mills AKKI techniques? I don't know. In a perfect world maybe we could have perfect Kenpo. We know the umbrella of the Senior Counsel was not able to cover the members, or those left out intentionally? It was the right idea ... but you have to have active, willing, proactive participation, a committment to the goals, and a shared desire to drive toward the same end - and to "hold the line" rather than make exceptions due to seniority or "we don't know that" or numerous other complications all organizations have to deal with.
A little Organizational Psychology should tell you how difficult this noble goal would be. Standardization of at least a minimal level would ensure that no matter where you went, the Kenpo you know would be available. A noble dream, one worth fighting for, but do not discount the hurdles inherent in trying to resolve this. Everyone wants it probably, but who is willing to compromise the way they teach their art? It takes a big man/woman to subjugate his/her teaching to a "standard" that he/she may not agree with completly. Once again, where would we draw the line?
Whew!! Way too long a post. I have reason to wish it were easier. I do miss the days when Mr. Parker was the driving influence or source of the Kenpo out there. Even if it had changed ie. Tracy's or Mr. Mills, you knew where it came from.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
I am about to get in trouble here. Once again, American Kenpo is not the only viable flavor of Kenpo. As stated there are a number of different styles of Kenpo that would, at least in my paradigm, not mesh into a viable admixture that could reasonably be called American Kenpo.
I think that things went too long without any attempts to achieve a meeting of the minds, and I'm really not sure that it could ever really happen or have happened the way some folks are envisioning it.
Now, I suspect that the only way there will ever, truly, be a unified Kenpo is if all the various "sub-cultures" die out due to not being valid, useful, or simply lack of interest on the part of new students. On the other hand, that is the way it has always been. The less vigorous or useful arts are now gone or are in the process of dying. Interestingly, now-a-days, we allow for 200 seperate types of Kung fu. In the late 60s and early 70s, there were about 2000 styles on Mainland China.
I suspect that due to amalgamation or due to the above listed reasonings, we are now down to 200, and I suspect that over the ensuing generations, such will happen in Kenpo. Since I began study of Kenpo in '71, and most particularly in the past 10 to 15 years, there have been astronomical advances in Kenpo. It continues to suffer growing pains, but it is growing and changing daily. And that is a good thing.
dan
I think that things went too long without any attempts to achieve a meeting of the minds, and I'm really not sure that it could ever really happen or have happened the way some folks are envisioning it.
Now, I suspect that the only way there will ever, truly, be a unified Kenpo is if all the various "sub-cultures" die out due to not being valid, useful, or simply lack of interest on the part of new students. On the other hand, that is the way it has always been. The less vigorous or useful arts are now gone or are in the process of dying. Interestingly, now-a-days, we allow for 200 seperate types of Kung fu. In the late 60s and early 70s, there were about 2000 styles on Mainland China.
I suspect that due to amalgamation or due to the above listed reasonings, we are now down to 200, and I suspect that over the ensuing generations, such will happen in Kenpo. Since I began study of Kenpo in '71, and most particularly in the past 10 to 15 years, there have been astronomical advances in Kenpo. It continues to suffer growing pains, but it is growing and changing daily. And that is a good thing.
dan
Z
Zeke
Guest
Yep, have to agree with you on that one, change is a good thing. As my first instructor used to say ;"As long you are changing you're alive. When you stop you might as well be dead" I guess he had a point somewhere
Now would it be nice if we all did the same thing? Yes indeed! Would it be just as fun? No not at all
Take care
Zeke
Now would it be nice if we all did the same thing? Yes indeed! Would it be just as fun? No not at all
Take care
Zeke
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