Kenpo, and Krav Maga

[Kempojujutsu]

In this month BB mag they have several Krav Maga techniques in it. The Techniques they do are almost exactly what we do in Kempojujutsu class. It doesn't matter if you do JKD, Kempo, Krav Maga or any other self defense only art you can come to the same conclusion. Use what works period.
Bob :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

Are you thinking Mr. Parkers material has not influenced many other arts? Krav is just one, it is easily seen. Can't tell you anymore than that, research it and come to your own conclusions.

I find it very difficult to believe that Ed Parker's Kenpo had any influence on Krav Maga. Imi Sde-Or's experiences with boxing, wrestling, etc., and his real-life experiences before and during WW II, gave him the knowledge he needed to develop it. He had been teaching it by 1948 when he was appointed an instructor for the IDF's School of Combat Fitness. This is all well-documented.

At most it's an example of "convergent evolution" as the biologists say, where two organisms develop similar adaptations in response to their needs (e.g., they structure of the eye developed several times independently).

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by arnisador



I find it very difficult to believe that Ed Parker's Kenpo had any influence on Krav Maga. Imi Sde-Or's experiences with boxing, wrestling, etc., and his real-life experiences before and during WW II, gave him the knowledge he needed to develop it. He had been teaching it by 1948 when he was appointed an instructor for the IDF's School of Combat Fitness. This is all well-documented.

At most it's an example of "convergent evolution" as the biologists say, where two organisms develop similar adaptations in response to their needs (e.g., they structure of the eye developed several times independently).

That's because your understanding of AK is limited. I can tell when people add to their arts because it looks like a text book version of it minus some important details you can't get from a book. You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous. Convergent evolution no. They did not begin to have a simular appearance until recently.

The 2 day workshops and the like are nothing more than rape prevention classes AK has been doing for years. Believe what you like, as I said before that is what I see. BTW this is a Kenpo forum is it not?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous.

The Israelis had an entire country's worth of resources.

Convergent evolution no. They did not begin to have a simular appearance until recently.

In what ways has Krav Maga changed since its inception in the early days of Israel?

BTW this is a Kenpo forum is it not?

Yes. This means it's for the discussion kenpo, not that such discussion must necessarily be pro-Kenpo. I am not a Kenpoist and I also am not a Krav Maga practitioner--I am disinterested. I am unconvinced that Krav Maga has been significantly influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. The prime users of Krav Maga in its beginning received plenty of feedback as to its utility and no doubt made changes they felt were appropriate and beneficial.

Krav Maga was being taught in 1948, when Mr. Parker was still in high school. While it's modern form may have many newer influences, from for example the book Krav Maga : How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault which I have before me together with what I have seen of Kenpo over the years and Jay T. Will's Kenpo Karate for Self-Defense which I also have before me I see no more similarities than I see in any of the many many other modern self-defense oriented systems I see.

In the claim that "You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous" no matter who you are, despite the intense pressures on the Israelis and before that on Jews in pre-WW II and W II Europe, where Mr. Sde-Or developed much of his basics, I sense a certain lack of detachedness in your analysis.

I am aware that many Krav Maga classes amount to simple self-defense classe, but many martial arts lead to such.

I am, as I say, very much unconvinced that you are correct.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by arnisador



Yes. This means it's for the discussion kenpo, not that such discussion must necessarily be pro-Kenpo. I am not a Kenpoist and I also am not a Krav Maga practitioner--I am disinterested. I am unconvinced that Krav Maga has been significantly influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. The prime users of Krav Maga in its beginning received plenty of feedback as to its utility and no doubt made changes they felt were appropriate and beneficial.

Krav Maga was being taught in 1948, when Mr. Parker was still in high school. While it's modern form may have many newer influences, from for example the book Krav Maga : How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault which I have before me together with what I have seen of Kenpo over the years and Jay T. Will's Kenpo Karate for Self-Defense which I also have before me I see no more similarities than I see in any of the many many other modern self-defense oriented systems I see.

In the claim that "You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous" no matter who you are, despite the intense pressures on the Israelis and before that on Jews in pre-WW II and W II Europe, where Mr. Sde-Or developed much of his basics, I sense a certain lack of detachedness in your analysis.

I am aware that many Krav Maga classes amount to simple self-defense classe, but many martial arts lead to such.

I am, as I say, very much unconvinced that you are correct.

You picked the wrong book to model AK after. The 87 dollar price tag could get you infinite insights. "I am not a Kenpoist I am also not a krav maga practitioner". You don't practice AK so how would you know anyway? Your opinion is formed on what you have read and nothing else. Very weak indeed- in order to have a real point of view you need to have real experience not what you have only read and formed an opinion on. In case you have not followed some of the threads we can tell what comes out of the books. Some of it is trivial and some of what was put in the books was designed to show where it came from... a book instead of a teacher.

Not really any point going further- you would have to have an understanding of EPAK to do that. Why don't you do something usefull like bring a drill to the table for discussion?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

You picked the wrong book to model AK after.

Surely you can appreciate the humor of this comment--could you get three kenpoists to agree on one book, or approach to Kenpo, in the wake of Mr. Parker's passing?

Your opinion is formed on what you have read and nothing else.

My opinion is based principally on the fact that Krav Maga was founded in 1948 and Ed Parker graduated from high school in 1949. It's correct that Krav maga has changed recently but I see no evidence that Kenpo was an influence on it. In fact, here's what a Krav Maga Senior Instructor says (see the second post by John Whitman):

Not BASED on. It's impossible to say, especially in this day and age, that no one is influenced by anyone else. Imi was a boxer, which is why KM has always had good punches. But we don't punch exactly like boxers. KM makes round kicks similar to muay thai fighters, but with some differences that any muay thai fighter will point out.
The same is true in reverse: I see our gun techniques popping up more and more in "other" systems.

The important thing to keep in mind is that KM has ALWAYS been integrated by it's own thought process -- the focus on instinctive movements and simple techniques that are accessible under stress. It has NEVER simply borrowed techniques and stuck them in it's system. Because we are an integrated system, every technique must make sense in relation to every other technique -- the same thought process informs the whole system.

Having said that, I will also say that KM has a number of techniques that were not seen by people outside the IDF until our videos came out, including a number of our gun techniques, our knife techniques, and stick defenses.

They think others are borrowing from them. Another poster in that thread writes:

I have been involved in various martial arts for over 20 years, and when I saw the KM tapes I saw a lot of techniques that looked SIMILAR to techniques in Kali, Bando, and even a little Aikido, all of which I have studied.

And back to Mr. Whitman:

No, I think you're relatively close, although I know for a fact that Imi's creation of self defense was ALL based on instinctive reaction and logical movement based on state of readiness, rather than someone else's technique.
You touch on a good point, though. Once you understand KM's basic principles (which are all related to a clear understanding of self defense) then you should be able to come up with a defense similar to KM's even if you haven't seen it. Darren Levine, the US Chief Instructor, often talks about getting his foundation in KM, then going back to the U.S. for a number of months. He'd be asked "What does KM do against...?" without having seen that particular technique. He'd have to come up with an answer based on his understanding of the system, rather than direct knowledge. Then he'd fly back to Israel, check with Imi, and discover that he was right because he understood the PRINCIPLES.

It sounds a great deal like what a kenpoist would say. I note that the Kali practitioner saw Kali as well. This is how I view your statement that you saw Kenpo in it; just as I view this person's belief that he saw Kali. We see what we want to see. This isn't like looking at an Okinawan kata and discerning that it came from an older Chinese form--relatively straight-forward techniques developed from simple principles of effectiveness will tend to look fairly similar, as they should if the idea of deriving techniques from principles makes any sense. I don't believe you saw any actual Kenpo in those techniques--and unless you can show a history of Kenpo's inclusion in the system, your judgment that it surely appears to be in there is no more sound than the Kali practitioner's.

I don't believe that it detracts from Mr. Parker's accomplishments to point out that others may have been able to do essentially the same.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Given that there are only so many ways to do a throw, or a lock, and that the human body only moves in certain ways, it is entirely possible that a "good technique" in 1 system will be found in a similar manner in another. I've seen so much thats familiar when I look at other systems...because it works.

Now, if you tell me the KM guys do 5 swords, or long 4....thats different.

 

[Rainman]

Surely you can appreciate the humor of this comment--could you get three kenpoists to agree on one book, or approach to Kenpo, in the wake of Mr. Parker's passing?

The most humorous thing I see is you comparing anything to the infinite insights, then thinking you have a clue to what AK is about. If you would have read all of what I said earliar you would also have noted I said primitive kenpo not EPAK. So now you are going to tell me no one read EP's material and borrowed from it? Well first you would have to read his material, then come to an understanding of what it meant.

Given that there are only so many ways to do a throw, or a lock, and that the human body only moves in certain ways, it is entirely possible that a "good technique" in 1 system will be found in a similar manner in another. I've seen so much thats familiar when I look at other systems...because it works.

O lovely kenpo expert #2 brings in his point of view to the fold. You mean there are so many thousands of ways to "do" a throw.
Here is a funny statement from your partner's quote "our kick only looks like a muy tai kick it is really different" :rofl: Well I only use EP's principles the Kenpo that comes out is purely me:rofl:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I never said I was an expert. I started out in Kenpo, have since moved on to other arts. Based on -my- observations I see this:

What a Kenpoist does as 1 technique, the Arnisador (not our mod) does as 5. Each of these 5 can be aranged differently forming a different Kenpo technique. This techniqu may contain a wristlock or an armbar. Gee, it looks like a WingChun armbar. Now, who stole/copied from who? Was it Yip Man, Ed Parker or Remy Presas? We have the Systema guys doing something that to me sounds alot like Tai Chi done full speed, full impact. Again, who borrowed from who?

Ed Parker was a great innovator, who did extensive studies on the mechanics of motion. He constantly aimed to improve his art. Many of these other folks did the same. The fact that a Kenpo kick looks like a WingChun kick looks like a Krav Magra kick is simply because those in the know (who I doubt -ANY- of us here really are) found the best way to do something. If its the best way, and someone else also did research and they too found the best way, wouldn't they look similar? From what I know (which is little) the KM guy was similarly minded. Constantly debugging his art which was aimed at combat survival.

If the argument is that the KM folks copied/cloned/stole from Kenpo, then produce your facts. Show your proof. Don't puff out hot air.

as I said before "Now, if you tell me the KM guys do 5 swords, or long 4....thats different. " So, care to list out where you see the similarities?

 

[Rainman]

What a Kenpoist does as 1 technique, the Arnisador (not our mod) does as 5. Each of these 5 can be aranged differently forming a different Kenpo technique. This techniqu may contain a wristlock or an armbar. Gee, it looks like a WingChun armbar. Now, who stole/copied from who? Was it Yip Man, Ed Parker or Remy Presas? We have the Systema guys doing something that to me sounds alot like Tai Chi done full speed, full impact. Again, who borrowed from who?

American Kenpo learned from the chinese that is why there is chinese writing on the patch... As a sign of respect.

If the argument is that the KM folks copied/cloned/stole from Kenpo, then produce your facts. Show your proof. Don't puff out hot air.

Everyone puffs out hot air- its called breathing. Credibility is the argument. Give it where it is due. I'm sorry you don't understand but you would have to be knowledgeable in AK for that to happen. Since neither you or your partner have an understanding of AK how is it you think you have answers I don't?

Many people have told me AK is limited in grappling- it is not-
How would I prove that to you unless you were on the mat with me? I have given you my resourses- read them or not. I would also suggest you go back and reread the posts. I said primitive kenpo not EPAK big difference. EPAK allows you to see many things if you study it and have a good guide.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Few bits:
My Kenpo background - EPAK under Robert Koch in Alden NY. http://internationalkenpo.com
Have also discussed things with several high ranked EPAK folks.
Am I a Kenpoist? nope. But I've got about 2 yrs experience. That and $1.25 will get ya a Coke.

We are arguing a chicken-egg bit here. All systems have something to offer. Many look similar due to many reasons. If EPAK is the tool that works best for you, then thats great. But not everything can be traced back to a common root. Sometimes, folks come up with the same idea..just different times.

Peace.

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rainman
Many people have told me AK is limited in grappling- it is not-

This ought to be good. It actually depends on how you qualify it.

Originally posted by Rainman
EPAK allows you to see many things if you study it and have a good guide.

I so totally agree with this quote. Totally. A lot. Bunches. Can I make myself clearer?

Originally posted by Rainman
I'm sorry you don't understand but you would have to be knowledgeable in AK for that to happen. Since neither you or your partner have an understanding of AK how is it you think you have answers I don't?

I think they have a basic understanding but I also agree that that alone might not help. However, one of the things about EPAK is the ability of it to make things very clear through it's terminology. Perhaps you could explain to them and make them understand your point? It just doesn't seem enough to say, "You don't understand so there is no point in debating it." because then I don't get to see a good knock down drag 'em out fight. I mean...discussion. DISCUSSION! Heh heh heh...

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Few bits:
My Kenpo background - EPAK under Robert Koch in Alden NY. http://internationalkenpo.com
Have also discussed things with several high ranked EPAK folks.
Am I a Kenpoist? nope. But I've got about 2 yrs experience. That and $1.25 will get ya a Coke.

We are arguing a chicken-egg bit here. All systems have something to offer. Many look similar due to many reasons. If EPAK is the tool that works best for you, then thats great. But not everything can be traced back to a common root. Sometimes, folks come up with the same idea..just different times.

Peace.

:asian:

:asian:

I think they have a basic understanding but I also agree that that alone might not help. However, one of the things about EPAK is the ability of it to make things very clear through it's terminology. Perhaps you could explain to them and make them understand your point? It just doesn't seem enough to say, "You don't understand so there is no point in debating it." because then I don't get to see a good knock down drag 'em out fight. I mean...discussion. DISCUSSION! Heh heh heh...

:rofl: troublemaker

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rainman
:rofl: troublemaker

Who me?

Nahhhhhhhh!

:ultracool