I want to buy a sword. What brand and size should I get?

[Ken Morgan]

While we may actually have trained in the JSA and know a bit about the weapon we use, 95% of the people who buy blades down at the mall/internet don't want or care to listen to our advice. This guy is going to do as he wishes with, or without any of our advice.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Here in Victoria, Australia, (Also my facts may be a bit off, feel free to correct me if you know), there were some gangs around the Asian communities that were taking cheap wallhangers and using them to initiate new members of their gangs by telling them to go and draw blood.

I may be off as well but IIRC, it was more machetes than wall hangers. Whilst swords may have definitely been used on occassion and were certainly being imported by the container load, machetes were the more common weapon amonst the Asian gangs for a range of reasons. Even the incident at Salt nightclub approx 8 years ago was a gang of youths with machetes waiting outside a club for someone who had exchanged a few words with them inside earlier. The night club got shut down and the crack down on bladed weapons began to really take effect.

At the moment, if you are caught carrying any kind of weapon in Victoria without a lawful reason - for example if you are a butcher carrying your tools to work that's fine provided it's a direct route from home to work and you have the knives safely and securely stowed as well as being able to verify the employment but not if you're a martial artist carrying your weapons through the city in the middle of the day when you have no reason to be - If caught in the latter category, you face a $1000 on the spot fine for the first offence and jail time for any subsequent offences. Yet knives are the most common weapons used in street assaults here (Machetes being more in the Northern states and guns not very common at all). Ironically, as you mentioned, serious martial artists need to go through extensive background checks to obtain any sort of blade including an Iaito but I can still walk into a Sunday market and pick up a machete for around $15 with no licence required and no questions asked...and it's already sharpened and ready to go.... Scary aint it?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Apologies to everyone else, that last post was a bit of a digression from the thread itself. Kip, listen to the people here... Or if you must buy a sword, have fun "cutting" trees or tyres in your own backyard with no spectators and post a clip on youtube. I could use a laugh in between studying for my exams.. First year forensics and criminal justice system stuff is quite dry

 

[Stealthy]

.... Scary aint it?

Since it looks like this thread is going there anyway, I think I'll help it along a bit with a little OTT story which may alter the way you think about edged weapons.

Convential wisdom dictates that the more powerful the weapon the more dangerous it is and to a certain extent the more socially deviant the wielder is.

During a somewhat recent trip through Asia I had this assumption turned on its head though.

My plans were to cross the border between China and North Vietnam on foot and work my way South. An apparently impossible trip which every person I spoke to about it insisted was madness.

I made it a priority to kit myself out with an edged weapon at the first available opportunity.

As it turned out the first knife I found was a very flimsy folder.

In private I went about "assessing" the knife's strengths and weaknesses to plan out potential uses for it and drill them.

Up until this point my entire plan for armed confrontation revolved around the old SAS trick of ramming them with the backpack.

When assessing any weapon (even unarmed) the point is to ask the question "if one or more attackers armed with edged weapons attacked me what could I do that would guarantee immediate immobilisation, thereby ensuring my survival?"

The problems with the little folder were it had no lock so thrusts were out and it was flimsy so dense targets like shoulders were out for slashes...in fact this knife was so weak that the ONLY reliable shot was a slash to the carotid artery.

So naturally that is what I drilled...while desperately searching for a better knife.

Eventually I found one, a really good one.

It is rock solid, with a powerful lock and ultra sharp though it does not hold an edge and so needs to be honed often.

Now the beauty of this knife is it can easily motor through any dense target, it can hit bone and not break and can be opened easily with one hand.

This meant I could plan a reliable defense against edged weapon confrontations around dis-arms and immobilisations like hits to the wrist, shoulders and knees.

A much better solution...lets face it, slashing a 15 year old kid across the neck is a very BAD solution and one which irrespective of the kids intentions would haunt you for the rest of your life.

As it turned out I never needed it for self defense but it was reassuring to know that if I did end up in a violent confrontation I would not have to kill anyone.

The night before crossing the border I had to stay awake due to catching a gang after my bag. I scared them off but still had to make sure they didn't have another go.

While at the border I was held up by customs since they did not have an Australian Passport in their database so they scanned and entered mine into the system(if you want to know who I am, all you have to do is turn up to that border crossing with an Australian Passport and look at mine when they bring it up on the computer to compare yours to it).

While it was quite safe for me at the Border the Chinese Guards got in a huge fight, one of them was holding my passport at the time so it got a little bit wrinkled

With Respect,
Stealthy.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Uhhh with all due respect, 2 things with that story.

1) I don't see how it's designed to change my views, or anyone else's on edged weapons. Cool story but not really a edged weapon centric story.

2) I know who you are without flying all the way to Vietnam to check... RAMBO!

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, just to finish off the discussion, the occurance was involving 'samurai swords' in the mid 90's. There were some predominantly Asian-membership gangs centred around the Eatern suburb of Box Hill who had, as part of their initiation, the requirement that members attack the public with said weapons, ideally cutting them in some way (although many assaults were more about scaring people than actually physically injuring anyone). In more recent times, predominantly Vietnamese gangs around Sydney have been known to use machete's as a common assault weapon.

Everyone clear now?

Stealthy, gotta say I don't really see the point you're making with your story either... it just sounds like the way you were assessing weapons for a need you eventually (thankfully) didn't have. But I will say that this comment:

When assessing any weapon (even unarmed) the point is to ask the question "if one or more attackers armed with edged weapons attacked me what could I do that would guarantee immediate immobilisation, thereby ensuring my survival?"

is rather inaccurate, and pertains only to your possible situation. What you actually look at when assessing a weapon is primarily it's strengths, weaknesses, and range. From there you may look at specific situations, but to look at a specific situation first without understanding the weapon itself is going about it backwards.

 

[Stealthy]

Stealthy, gotta say I don't really see the point you're making with your story either...

Ah, guess I should clarify then....The point was merely that having a stronger, more reliable weapon meant I had the luxury of doing LESS damage were the need to arise.

Agreed, the first thing I did was assess the weapons strengths and weaknesses but when I found it to have very few strengths and a lot of weaknesses I went on to work out exactly what the options were with it(the problem travelling on foot presented was loss of mobility due to the heavy pack so normal unarmed defenses would be too slow to stop an armed attacker).

Needless to say it was quite the relief to find I had no need for it beyond cutting up apples.

 

[pgsmith]

Got to throw in my two cent's worth ...
First, the OP is probably some kid out of school for the summer who has no instructor, no plans to get an instructor, and just wants to play ninja. Lots and lots of people around the world buy 'Japanese style' swords from Hanwei, Cold Steel, or numerous other producers with the same basic idea in mind ... play with it and cut things. That's why there are so many of these companies out there now selling vaguely sword-like objects, because so many people actually buy them. There are entire web sites devoted to them and they generally manage to do it without killing themselves or others.

However, this is a forum devoted to serious martial artists and if they come and ask for opinions here, I believe it is our duty to emphatically point out how stupid and dangerous it is to play with a sharp sword without proper instruction and supervision. We should do our best to discourage them from 'playing ninja' and refer them to proper instruction. Of course, the idiots are free to go and be idiots, but we should never encourage their idiocy.

Just my thoughts on it.

 

[Indagator]

To the OP, everything that has been said here is worth taking note of. One other point that may be worth taking on board is that it can be very unwise to keep a weapon in your home that you would not feel confidently capable of defending or protecting yourself against if it were turned on you.

If the wrong sort of people found out you owned a sword, especially if you run your mouth off about it to all and sundry, it is a very real possibility that somebody may come into your home and use your own weapon against you. I know of several home invasions where compound bows, rifles, swords and other such weapons which can be found in one's home have been used as the primary assault weapon.

Do you feel that you could safely handle a situation against a live-blade katana? Personally I don't even keep my kitchen knives in a place where somebody would likely look to find them.
My hunting gear and my weapons are all in locations where I can easily access them but others would not be likely to think they would be, and most importantly I don't tell anybody that I have them!

To some of the others who have commented regarding the quality and accuracy of some "SLOs" out there, a wee question - what options do any of you know of for those of us out there in the working class who can't afford a lot of money for swords?
Even some Hanwei swords are pretty expensive on my income, actually I'd been thinking of getting one of theirs when I can TBH, but noticed a few people don't recommend their stuff?

Are there any swords worth having that are affordable to the working class?

 

[Ken Morgan]

It all depends on what you are looking to use the sword for.
If you are looking for an edged weapon for home defence or to cut water bottle in the back yard, don’t even **** around, buy a $15 machete. A piece of sharpened steel, is a piece of sharpened steel if this is your need.
If you are looking for a blade for iaido practice, you can buy a fair iaito for $400 or so.

 

[Indagator]

Got a few machetes, although they're more for keeping the yard tidy and odd jobs around the place than for home defence.

I was referring more to live blade for kenjutsu training &c.

$400.00 is a lot of money for a working class joe - that's just under 2 weeks wages for me in fact, and once bills and evrything are factored in... well, yeah.
This is basically what I meant when asking what people such as myself ought to do? Settle for Hanwei or something, although on the forums they don't appear to have a reputation as being worthwhile, or simply accept that swords are out of reach for me, move on get over it and focus on other weapons training instead.

Not too keen on option 2.

I'd been looking at a sword from Hanwei that was live blade, carbon steel and selling for around $120.00 through a wholesaler/importer. What I have been reading made me think that it probably would be a waste of money and no good for kenjutsu training though.

 

[Ken Morgan]

A few points.
1. You don’t need to use a live blade for iaido/kenjutsu training. In fact I would recommend not using one for many years if at all. I know of folks who practiced for 10+ years before they bought a shinken.I went 5 years before I bought one.
2. Odds are quite good that any live blade under$500 is a wall hanger that you would never use for serious practice. Not only due to safety reasons, as their manufacture is generally suspect, but the balance is likely very wrong. It was never meant to be used for practice.
3. Never use anything in the $120 range. Ever.
4. Look at the used sword market. Iaido, like all MA, has a huge dropout rate. Find someone who spent $400 on an iaito and offer them a few hundred. They may very well take it, otherwise the blade will sit in the closet forever.
5. What do you want to use the blade for? Blades are all made for specific tasks in mind. I would not use a blade made specifically for cutting in my iaido class while at the same time I would not use my iaido blade for cutting.
6. Never use anything but a bokken for partner practice.

 

[Cryozombie]

A few points.
2. Odds are quite good that any live blade under$500 is a wall hanger that you would never use for serious practice. Not only due to safety reasons, as their manufacture is generally suspect, but the balance is likely very wrong. It was never meant to be used for practice.
3. Never use anything in the $120 range. Ever.

I disagree. Now, understand that I am not a "Serious" sword student, we study sword in several of our ryu, and our school does Tameshigiri 2 or 3 times a year... but we are NOT a sword school.

I own a couple Hanwei swords, (Practical Plus and a Raptor) a Cheness (Oniyuri) and an Oni Forge blade (Their Togakure-ryu style Katana). At one time I had a very nice sword from Tozando that I paid almost 2k for, but when I lost my job I sold it. (Some of you may remember the pics of it I posted here on MT several years back)

For practical purposes, I have seen very little performance difference in any of those swords. I have heard that the Oni Forge swords Tsuka tend to split, but I have disassembled mine and checked it every time I have cut with it and had no issues. Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think that these are equal to a high End sword by any means, but... I have not seen these "terrible flaws" that make these un-suitable to be called swords by so many of the Eliteists who insist if your sword isn't practically papered its worthless.

Perhaps if sword was all I studied, I would feel the need for a "high end" sword... but for the average practitioner of other arts who's training happens to include sword, I see no real disadantage to owning a "production" sword.

Your milage may vary.

 

[Chris Parker]

I disagree. Now, understand that I am not a "Serious" sword student, we study sword in several of our ryu, and our school does Tameshigiri 2 or 3 times a year... but we are NOT a sword school.

I own a couple Hanwei swords, (Practical Plus and a Raptor) a Cheness (Oniyuri) and an Oni Forge blade (Their Togakure-ryu style Katana). At one time I had a very nice sword from Tozando that I paid almost 2k for, but when I lost my job I sold it. (Some of you may remember the pics of it I posted here on MT several years back)

For practical purposes, I have seen very little performance difference in any of those swords. I have heard that the Oni Forge swords Tsuka tend to split, but I have disassembled mine and checked it every time I have cut with it and had no issues. Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think that these are equal to a high End sword by any means, but... I have not seen these "terrible flaws" that make these un-suitable to be called swords by so many of the Eliteists who insist if your sword isn't practically papered its worthless.

Perhaps if sword was all I studied, I would feel the need for a "high end" sword... but for the average practitioner of other arts who's training happens to include sword, I see no real disadantage to owning a "production" sword.

Your milage may vary.

Hey Cryo,

I can see where you're coming from, but in regard to generic advice given over such a medium as this, I agree completely with Ken's comments. One of the reasons the "lower end" swords are not recommended is that they have a much greater risk of being flawed (such as the splitting tsuka you mention). Now, that doesn't mean that all of the weapons from a certain company will be so flawed, but a greater proportion of them will be. For instance, I have a Nami Iaito (Paul Chen/Hanwei), and the actual sword itself is pretty good (for what it is, I might add....), but the saya and habaki don't really fit, amongst a few other things. The Wakizashi I got to match, on the other hand, is fine.

And while a non-sword specific school might not have such demands, wall-hanger blades are not so good at all. When comparing the more entry-level with a higher end one, though, really, the difference is noticed with greater experience. It's like musical instruments, I had a guitar that was $800, and another that was $4,500. Now, feature wise, they were pretty similar, one was an entry level PRS, the other was a Parker Fly... and a number of people couldn't tell why I'd have the Parker if the PRS was so much cheaper. But put them in the hands of a semi-serious guitarist.... I guess my point is that a beginner/intermediate student (in a school that isn't a "sword" school) really doesn't need a $2,000 blade. But that doesn't mean that they have to go to items that have issues of balance, fittings, weight, build quality, and so forth. The more entry level Tozando ones are a better fit, if sword is going to be a focus at all.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You want a sweet, sweet, sword for your first. I recommend the GI Joe Sword.

http://www.trueswords.com/gi-joe-swords-b-1154030639.html

 

[Stealthy]

Hey Cryo,

I can see where you're coming from, but in regard to generic advice given over such a medium as this, I agree completely with Ken's comments. One of the reasons the "lower end" swords are not recommended is that they have a much greater risk of being flawed (such as the splitting tsuka you mention).

Same here,

I have a $400 Hanwei and while it held up okay for a while eventually the fittings became loose. The balance is quite nice but loose fittings are a major pain.

Incidentally I have to straighten the blade by hand all the time since it is so soft any sideways motion when changing direction bends it(not a problem since it is only for drawing and kata and not for cutting).

 

[Cryozombie]

Chris, I get what you are saying too, but again, I think there is a difference between (to use an analogy similar to your Guitar one) what kind of Machine a Nascar Driver needs and what kind of Machine a Pizza delivery driver needs. I dunno, maybe I would feel differently if I was using them more than a couple times a year... but it still smacks of elitism to me. I remember years ago when the Paul Chen blades first became availible, and everyone talked about what a miracle it was that a "Real" sword finally hit the market that was affordable for the entry level practitioner... and now that the market is flooded with them, many of the same people are all screaming "pfffft... those aint real swords, just cheap wallhangers"

Wth?

It strikes me as a case of "Look how cool my new sword is." "Oh yeah, I have one too." "Me Too!" "Really? You all do? ummm... It's Crap! Look at this AWESOME sword I just got for 6x the cost!"

 

[Cryozombie]

And don't get me wrong, I understand there is a huge quality difference between a Chen and say a sword from a high end manufacturer. What I fail to understand is the idea that unless the sword is from one of them, it should never be used for anything other than decoration.

 

[Ken Morgan]

My Shinken is made in China, so no elitism there. I’d rather use my Chinese shinken then my Japanese iaito. I use the Chinese blade because the balance is damn near perfect. It cost me $800, but even after 7+ years all the fittings are nice and tight, and I can swing it easily all day.

When you are swinging a sword for upwards of 20 hours a week, you need a blade with great balance, snug fittings and generally well made. Serious iaido practice demands it. If you use something substandard, your elbows hurt, your wrists hurt, your technique is crap, your balance is off, you end up fighting the blade to do what you want it to do, but it just can’t do what it is supposed to do.

These guys who come in with Chen blades and others quickly switch over so something better after they try out what else is available.

 

[pgsmith]

What I fail to understand is the idea that unless the sword is from one of them, it should never be used for anything other than decoration.

The answer to this is all in how a Japanese sword is made. Not the blade mind you, although that does factor in, but the rest of the sword. A traditional Japanese sword is made as follows ... The outline of the blade is drawn on both sides of a blank piece of wood for the sheath (saya). Then the space for the blade is carefully hand carved out until it fits exactly in the space with only the back of the sword actually touching the wood. this is accomplished by carving one side of the saya deeper than the other. The halves are tied tightly together and the fit checked by oiling the blade to determine where in the saya it may be touching. Any imperfections are carefully carved out until the fit is exact. The handle is made in a similar manner. The tang (nakago) is outlined on both sides of the blank handle, and then it is carved out until the fit is almost perfect, but just a tight. Then the handle halves are glued together, rayskin is glued on top to reinforce the wood, then the fittings are put on and the handle wrapped in cotton, silk, or leather. When the handle is finished, it is pressed onto the nakago. The key element being that it must fit quite tightly to hold it together properly, but not so tight that the wood will split. This is aided by the rayskin and handle wrap. It is this pressure fit that holds the handle on, the peg (mekugi) is there to keep the pressure tight. All of the meticulous hand fitting is why traditionally finished Japanese swords are so expensive as it is difficult to do well, and takes a long apprenticeship to learn properly.

Now, in order to bring the price down to a reasonable level, shortcuts obviously have to be taken to this procedure. The lower the price, the more shortcuts have been taken to get there. This is where buying an inexpensive sword gets very tricky. The most common shortcuts are to use generic components rather than hand carved components. Fit errors are corrected using shims, glue, and filing.

Some of the most common errors that I've come across in inexpensive swords are 1) the blade does not line up properly with the handle. This in itself is not a catastrophic error, and most Chinese made swords have this problem to some degree. 2) Handle is too small and cracks when forced on. this is a catastrophic failure and gives your sword the opportunity to become three feet of sharp steel flying through the air. Very dangerous. 3) Handle wrap not tight enough. This can result in the wrap coming loose and causing a person to throw their sword when it is swung. Again, very dangerous, but not quite as bad as a cracked handle. 4) saya does not fit correctly. This is not a catastrophic failure either, but can cause the sword to slip out and cut someone (seen that happen a couple of times) or can cause the sword to jam and make it hard to draw resulting in excessive force which allows a person to lose control of their sword. (Seen this happen also). 5) Poor grade of wood used for the handle. This is another catastrophic failure as it can cause the handle to crack.

Now, for someone that is very familiar with swords, all of these issues can be checked before use. I have no problem with students buying inexpensive swords as long as I get to check them before they swing them around, and as long as they agree to either return them (if possible) or use them for decoration only if I fail them after a careful check. Some of the people on the Chinese sword assembly lines do good work, others don't have a clue. Quality control is almost non-existent. Therefore, it's a crapshoot as to whether you had several people that knew how to do a good job making your sword or not. I've seen some inexpensive swords that were very well made, but I've seen far more that were junk and basically just an accident waiting to happen.

Since most people looking at inexpensive swords don't have much knowledge or experience, I don't feel right recommending any of them since you never know if you are going to get a good one or a bad one, and it takes quite a bit of experience to know one from the other. That's why you end up with most of the experienced people saying not to buy an inexpensive sword. Well, that and the fact that they are usually far inferior aesthetically and balance wise, but those are not really issues unless you are going to be joining a dojo and learning in earnest.

Wow, that ended up much longer than I had planned. Sorry!