Kataless Karate Pros & Cons

[Dark]

Sport or SD based it doesn't matter, but what are the pros and cons of free style (no kata) karate styles?

 

[pstarr]

I was brought up in the old school.

My teacher always said the the forms of a system contain all relevant information about that system. They're like the textbooks of a system.
If individual techniques are words and combinations are phrases and paragraphs, forms are books.

It often requires a great deal of training and study to learn how to read these books, however. But once you learn how, the information they contain is invaluable.

 

[Grenadier]

For simplicity's sake, when I speak of "kumite" in this post, we'll simply assume I'm referring to jiyu kumite (free sparring).

When it comes to the martial arts, there are multiple ways to accomplish one's goals, and using kata in a particular system is but one way to do so.

I would argue, that having kata in a system is quite beneficial, since it can help someone refine their techniques, understand sequence, and once they learn the oyo / bunkai, application. In turn, they develop their techniques quite nicely, and if someone has good technique, then their kumite is generally going to be decent as well. As a result of their kumite getting better, they will have a better understanding of the techniques as they would be applied in "real time," resulting in their kata getting better, and so forth.

The way I see it, the kata and kumite compliment each other, and improvement in one area carries over to an improvement in the other area to a certain extent.

Now, can a system that uses few or even no kata survive? Of course. If you look at the Kyokushin-kai, they do not use that many kata, compared to the other traditional Karate systems, instead, focussing more on the kumite aspect. Even if I don't agree with their methods, I will certainly agree that they are a very successful (and thriving) system.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well let's start with the obvious con, if there aren't any Kata it's not karate anymore. Which should pretty much end the discussion right there...

One kataless offshoot is American Kickboxing though.

There are lots of kataless systems that get on just fine, but they are not karate. It's like boxing without the jab...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a kata fan, but kata is the heart of karate, you can't just cut it out and still have "karate". You might have something good, but you don't have "karate".

 

[Robert Lee]

With the key found in the old Kata You can still break it down train it and it still be Karate. The newer kata can be fogotten The old if you wish break it down. Most people never get there art . They leave the tools in the kata Never breaking them down training there seperated use of application.. So its catch 22. It is more how you train and understand. A person that can only do kata and not the seperated aspects can not use there given arts training. Then a person not useing kata. And can not get there training beyond controled responces drill prearranged drill are in the same boat. You have to go beyond Kata and drills to get application of your own use.

 

[green meanie]

Well let's start with the obvious con, if there aren't any Kata it's not karate anymore. Which should pretty much end the discussion right there...

One kataless offshoot is American Kickboxing though.

There are lots of kataless systems that get on just fine, but they are not karate. It's like boxing without the jab...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a kata fan, but kata is the heart of karate, you can't just cut it out and still have "karate". You might have something good, but you don't have "karate".

Agreed.

 

[Dark]

See it one thing to define Karate by techniques, training (kata or the mount of training no longer practiced), or philosophy. I'm playing devils advicate here, but what makes karate defined only by kata?

 

[Robert Lee]

Its not The key to different Karate arts were found in the old kata. But releaseing that key the person has to move away from Katas to really apply what they have learned. The answer is outside of Kata. Kata is just the book you learn by.

 

[tshadowchaser]

A person may learn to fight ( kick-punch-whatever) with out kata but as has been said already it will be something different from Karate and should have a different name
What they learn may save them from harm and they may be great fighters but they are not Karate masters or students

 

[Dark]

A person may learn to fight ( kick-punch-whatever) with out kata but as has been said already it will be something different from Karate and should have a different name
What they learn may save them from harm and they may be great fighters but they are not Karate masters or students

Then what are they? And why?

 

[Andrew Green]

Same reason you don't call football "football" when you recreate it without a ball...

 

[pstarr]

Agreed.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

My few is and this my have been said but I didn't read the whole thread. A karate system without kata is not karate it is nothing but streetfighting. Kata contains everything karate has to offer. It is the encyclopedia of ones system.

 

[Dark]

Same reason you don't call football "football" when you recreate it without a ball...

What is the "ball" of karate? Kata or Philosophy or all of the above?

 

[Dark]

My few is and this my have been said but I didn't read the whole thread. A karate system without kata is not karate it is nothing but streetfighting. Kata contains everything karate has to offer. It is the encyclopedia of ones system.

Only on the surface, technique and application in method yes thats definately in kata. But what about the -do, the higher philosophical aspects of karate? Is that not as important as the ability to dislocate a shoulder with a blocking technique?

I been checking out the local free style group, they had me rethink some classical ideas but I still haven't bought completely into it.

 

[Eviscerate]

Guys they have kataless karate, its called hapkido.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Only on the surface, technique and application in method yes thats definately in kata. But what about the -do, the higher philosophical aspects of karate? Is that not as important as the ability to dislocate a shoulder with a blocking technique?

I been checking out the local free style group, they had me rethink some classical ideas but I still haven't bought completely into it.

The philoosphical side of karate is very important but it to is in kata. The depth of understanding of each kata is what brings it out. Its up to you the student to learn and understand. There is not a sensei that can teach you the complete depth of kata.

 

[Dark]

The philoosphical side of karate is very important but it to is in kata. The depth of understanding of each kata is what brings it out. Its up to you the student to learn and understand. There is not a sensei that can teach you the complete depth of kata.

I have never seen philosophy displayed in kata, so I have to ask how is it displayed in forms?

 

[Robert Lee]

Kata OLD kata is the core of the different Karate ryus. BUT if you look for your karate only in the kata you will miss all the karate that is being taught to you. Kata is the key only. A key unlocks a door that door is your freedom to be able to truely perform your chosen path. To many keep the key never unlock the door They just think that they now know karate Each move in kata must be broken down outside of the kata to find its uses aginst different selfdefence aspects. NOT just bunki of kata. That demonstartes the attack defence motion of set appllications. explore what kata shows youthen Karate of your Ryu style will become yours aNd then it can work. Hold onto only the key and never use it to understand It is no longer karate Its is but a robot to a fixed motion of dance. Ask any old timer about Kata The answer is outside of that kata to find your way your use. Now far as if Karate can be that without Kata. Well if you broke that kata down To show and learn more about applications. I would still think it is Karate. Because karate came many years after The art was here. And when Karate came so much was added to modern katas. Tiguchi said The old kata is what makes Karate do not change those leave them the same. But he said to you will not find the answer looking only iside at the kata. you must leave that kata to learn to use Karate. No different then judo you must learn its training but must learn how to use that training or you never do judo Or any art for that fact.

 

[eyebeams]

It could be done. The role of kata is really to provide a base for self-discovery. The derived elements that are fundamental can be taught without the kata quite effectively.

Kata do not provide the knowledge by themselves. I've seen enough people with more kata under their belt than me (I only know* three -- four if you count a certain exercise) who do not know how to make fundamentals functional to give kata the credit for that.

If you find yourself applying a kata movement in free-fighting effectively you know that movement far better than someone who can just dance through the set.

* Of course, by "know" I mean I've studied each of them for about one or two years apiece on their own after five years of basics and sparring, and they often "knew" them by drilling them to basic comprehension to get their next belt.