Kata- Traditional or Modern?

[Vadim]

I was watching ESPN today and they had a Kata championship on from Orlando, FL. Some of the kata that I saw was done in a traditional manner while others were done in a more I guess I would call it "flashy" manner. The tv commentators kept saying that it was difficult to judge between the two types of kata.

In your opinion do you feel it is appropriate to alter kata to make it more appealing to the possible uninformed viewers? Or is it better to keep kata in the traditional manner the way it was originally taught regardless of the style it came from?

-Vadim

 

[Marginal]

Anything that frequently involves the use of the "Mortal Kombat" theme song is really, really hard to take seriously.

 

[Oak Bo]

I feel they both have there place.
With that said, I think the backflips and cartwheels and all the other "stuff" are way over done though. Not to mention the kiai's on every other movement. It's to the point of silliness IMO.

 

[RRouuselot]

Kata was not designed to entertain the masses. Therefore I can’t see any reason to add a triple back flip with a half summy while spinning a pair of lighted nunchaku performed by a 20 something year old “grand master” no less…….. this is no joke I saw this on one of those ESPN type kur-raw-dee tournaments……
If people want to do that kind of crap I strongly urge them to call it something besides karate……I suggest “monkey flung pooh wu shoo” or something along those lines.

 

[The Kai]

Free-style Kata devaules the art/application of the arts. If you want to do gymnastics, do gymnastics as simply as that. At a tournament 20 yrs ago there was a gentlemen doing a simple traditional form with plenty of tension breathing. As odd as it sounds the kata raised the hairs on the back of your neck. That is what a Kata should be (IMHO)

Todd

 

[MJS]

Yes, I have to agree once again with Robert. IMO, a kata, be it empty hand or a weapon, should be done in its pure form. Katas were designed to contain fighting movements. That being said, what application does all of the fancy acrobatics play?? If people say that going to the ground to grapple is not wise, then why would you want to do a cartwheel???

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

If kata weren't designed for entertainment then why are they frequently used at demonstrations? Even the "old" masters did kata for demonstration purposes.

As for the extreme MA stuff, nothing wrong with that, it's just not for me. It doesn't devalue anything, it is its own thing. they aren't claiming it is anything that it isn't, so I see no problem with it.

 

[RRouuselot]

Yes, I have to agree once again with Robert. IMO, a kata, be it empty hand or a weapon, should be done in its pure form. Katas were designed to contain fighting movements. That being said, what application does all of the fancy acrobatics play?? 1)If people say that going to the ground to grapple is not wise, then why would you want to do a cartwheel???

Mike

1) Because there are too many egos in the MA lately that claim they have created something new and improved but actually just can't hack it doing the real stuff correctly.

 

[RRouuselot]

If kata weren't designed for entertainment then why are they frequently used at demonstrations? Even the "old" masters did kata for demonstration purposes.

As for the extreme MA stuff, nothing wrong with that, it's just not for me. It doesn't devalue anything, it is its own thing. they aren't claiming it is anything that it isn't, so I see no problem with it.

Uhhhh please think about what you wrote and re-read what I wrote.
REAL Kata were not developed for demonstrations.......they are done at them but were not made for them. You will also see technique demonstrated but it doesn’t mean technique was made for demos.

 

[Andrew Green]

So basically you are saying that traditional kata are ill suited for competition? I'll agree to that, now let the XMA folk do what they do...And really, isn't doing kata as a competition kind of like having a basketball player come out and dribble then get scorred on form? If they are primarily for training then that is pretty much what is going on.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i have to agree with robert on this one. im sick to death of all these "new and improved" creations. if you wanna impress me, show some old fashioned hard working knowledge of a real kata, not some half-baked rejected olympic floor routine.

shawn

 

[tshadowchaser]

Free-style Kata devaules the art/application of the arts. If you want to do gymnastics, do gymnastics as simply as that. At a tournament 20 yrs ago there was a gentlemen doing a simple traditional form with plenty of tension breathing. As odd as it sounds the kata raised the hairs on the back of your neck. That is what a Kata should be (IMHO)

I could not agree more. Dance is dance, gymnastics are gymnastics and Karta is something totaly different.
Call all this fancy stuff " Show form" or Acrobatic interpatation but don't call it a karta

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok, so what happens when you get a group of MMA fighters telling you to call your kata folk dancing or whatever you want, just don't try to call it martial arts cause your little punching the air number devalues the martial arts?


oh, and btw - They usually call it "Sport Karate", not "Karate". Which is exactly what it is

And one more thing - They made a movie abouyt this, called "Strictly Ballroom", you should see it

 

[MJS]

If kata weren't designed for entertainment then why are they frequently used at demonstrations? Even the "old" masters did kata for demonstration purposes.

I think the point is being missed here. Yes, kata can be done for demos. The title of this thread was regarding changes made to the kata to make it flashey.

Mike

 

[MJS]

1) Because there are too many egos in the MA lately that claim they have created something new and improved but actually just can't hack it doing the real stuff correctly.

Just so there is no confusion. I wasn't trying to validate grappling, just simply making a ref. to going to the ground to do a cartwheel.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

I think the point is being missed here. Yes, kata can be done for demos. The title of this thread was regarding changes made to the kata to make it flashey.

Mike

And I am quite sure I remember reading references to the old Okinawan masters doing it too...

 

[Andrew Green]

That being said, what application does all of the fancy acrobatics play?? If people say that going to the ground to grapple is not wise, then why would you want to do a cartwheel???

Mike

Application? who cares? 90% of traditional kata doers don't know any realistic applications for them. And a cartwheel c an be used to pass guard. Even the don't go to the ground people would have a hard time arguing that if you got a guy on his back getting on top of him and kneeing him is a pretty good way to hurt someone

 

[MJS]

And I am quite sure I remember reading references to the old Okinawan masters doing it too...

Again, some misunderstanding here. Kata were designed to contain moves used for fighting. Obviously, you're not going to fight someone using the kata pattern, but you can take moves from them, and apply them to a SD tech. As for the old masters...again, sure, they did them, but did they do a cartwheel or keep the kata in its true form?? That is the difference here.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

Again, some misunderstanding here. Kata were designed to contain moves used for fighting. Obviously, you're not going to fight someone using the kata pattern, but you can take moves from them, and apply them to a SD tech. As for the old masters...again, sure, they did them, but did they do a cartwheel or keep the kata in its true form?? That is the difference here.

Mike

No misunderstanding at all. You are talking about modification for the purpose of impressing observers. The exact modifications are not relevant, only the intent is.

 

[MJS]

Application? who cares? 90% of traditional kata doers don't know any realistic applications for them.

And that is very sad. There are people out there that do understand the true meaning though.

And a cartwheel c an be used to pass guard. Even the don't go to the ground people would have a hard time arguing that if you got a guy on his back getting on top of him and kneeing him is a pretty good way to hurt someone

Again, some misunderstanding here. You hear people all the time talking about going to the ground and the pros/cons of it. An example would be mult. attackers. Keep in mind, not everyone is a gymnast. Honestly Andrew, how many fights in the street have you seen people doing a cartwheel?? As for the knee...nothing wrong with that...technically, you're not 'going to the ground'.

mike