Kata or sparring.

[MJS]

There are two distinct trains of thought here, one being the importance of one over the other, and the other, the practical benefits of doing kata. Maybe we can dissect both. Bunkai, when properly understood can open up a whole new world. The problem, as you stated, is having a teacher to point us in the right direction. This coupled with some old fashioned cross training with open many doors. Back with combining kata and sparring, I feel one is sport and the other (kata) is pure SD. Do they intermingle well??

Yes, I agree, and that is one of my pet peeves when I see some people doing kata. Seems like they just move from one thing to the next, without knowing what they're doing. IMO, they're missing a big part of the puzzle.

As for combining both...I do Kenpo. Kenpo has kata. I also spar, however, I tend to stay away from the point type sparring, in favor of continuous, as well as more contact, adding in clinch work, ground work, etc.

I don't think, for me anyways, that it hinders anything I'm doing.

 

[jarrod]

Which has more relevance over the other.

the answer is somewhat relative. my kickboxing coach is a bigtime proponent of forms, & i recognize their value. however if i studied a forms-intensive style, i would quickly lose interest & probably quit. i just don't like doing forms, & no amout of argument about their value (which i accept) makes me like them.

so i think the one that you like doing more is more relevant to you. i will say however that i have met many people who sparred & did not train katas that were skilled fighters. but you can't say if someone who does kata only is a skilled fighter, because you never fight them. so i would say both is ideal, but if you only do one it should be sparring.

jf

 

[seasoned]

the answer is somewhat relative. my kickboxing coach is a bigtime proponent of forms, & i recognize their value. however if i studied a forms-intensive style, i would quickly lose interest & probably quit. i just don't like doing forms, & no amout of argument about their value (which i accept) makes me like them.

so i think the one that you like doing more is more relevant to you. i will say however that i have met many people who sparred & did not train katas that were skilled fighters. but you can't say if someone who does kata only is a skilled fighter, because you never fight them. so i would say both is ideal, but if you only do one it should be sparring.

jf

I can tell by reading your different posts, on many threads, that you are a doer, and relish a lot of hands on. This is what works for you, and I must admit, it did for me also, when I was younger. I came up through the ranks with two distinctly different Sensei. The first one was a stickler for correct technique (closer to my age) but lacked in the kata bunkai department. As was stated by another poster, we had perfect form with our kata, but didn’t have a clue what they meant. We more then made up for that though, because it was minimal gear, and fight to the ground sparring, almost every night. Those were definitely some of the most awesome times. Blood and guts, but friends to the end. 60s and 70s were hard times. Then my Sensei’s teacher took over the DoJo. Because of the military, our only contact with him was very slight, until he retired. What he brought to the plate was extensive bunkai knowledge, of the kata. At that time my first Sensei, because of medical issues, dropped out of MA. I was older now, and this change opened up a whole new door of knowledge. This was an established dojo made up of warrior types, so the first thing he did was cancelled all sparring for almost a year, while we went over all kata and drills extensively. When we did start sparring again it was with a whole new flavor. Now getting back to my original post, which has more relevance, kata or sparring? Mind you, I am now older, and looking at it from a different angle. But my take on it is, acquire a strong base, of hands on sparring, while learning the kata and bunkai. The drills which complement the kata, should be the focus for bunkai, with more sparring then kata. Over a period of time as kata bunkai knowledge expands, continue to spar but lean more toward kata. End result is a seasoned martial artist with a kata/bunkai base with a lesser focus on sparring. There is a definite transition from white belt to the higher black belt levels, but I feel this is what will usher a dedicated MA into old age and still be able to train. So it is not a cut and dry issue of which is better, but which is better at certain times within our training life. This is how I teach and bring someone through the ranks. At this point ask me which is more important, I will tell you kata, every time. J
:asian:

 

[jarrod]

i think you touched on an important point when you mentioned that you trained drills derived straight from bunkai. in my karate/tkd days, we would do the form, then drills & one steps which looked nothing like the kata, then spar, which also looked nothing like kata. this made it pretty hard for me to take kata seriously at the time (although i was pretty decent at them).

but i suspect you are right about it depending on the point in your life. i know that in 20 years i won't be training like i am now, & it seems likely i'll gravitate towards a style which includes forms training. i still have a soft spot for the various styles of karate.

this brings to mind an interesting question: what about styles that don't include kata? if katas are that important, are their training methods less effective?

jf

 

[seasoned]

i think you touched on an important point when you mentioned that you trained drills derived straight from bunkai. in my karate/tkd days, we would do the form, then drills & one steps which looked nothing like the kata, then spar, which also looked nothing like kata. this made it pretty hard for me to take kata seriously at the time (although i was pretty decent at them).

but i suspect you are right about it depending on the point in your life. i know that in 20 years i won't be training like i am now, & it seems likely i'll gravitate towards a style which includes forms training. i still have a soft spot for the various styles of karate.

this brings to mind an interesting question: what about styles that don't include kata? if katas are that important, are their training methods less effective?

jf

Maybe in later years, but I am at work so I will post later today. Thanks

 

[seasoned]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, however, I wanted to comment on the last line of your post. Now, doing a kata in the air, yes, that allows us to follow through, just like any other technique. Of course, if we do those same techniques on a person, we can't follow thru with everything, due to the fact that we have to take the nature of the tech. in question, into consideration. If there is an arm break in the kata, we certainly can't follow thru when applying the move on someone. So like sparring with rules, even the techs have rules, so to speak.

At work right now, I will post you later. Thanks for your response.

 

[seasoned]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, however, I wanted to comment on the last line of your post. Now, doing a kata in the air, yes, that allows us to follow through, just like any other technique. Of course, if we do those same techniques on a person, we can't follow thru with everything, due to the fact that we have to take the nature of the tech. in question, into consideration. If there is an arm break in the kata, we certainly can't follow thru when applying the move on someone. So like sparring with rules, even the techs have rules, so to speak.

Thank you MJS for posting.
You are definitely correct, and rules are what hamper our efforts, if we let them. If the sparring is just punches, kicks, blocks, sweeps, and take downs, we can still derive much from it. Such as timing, taking hits, and distancing. The old traditional kata contain what I would consider the essence, or heart of the art. Not the more modern styles, but the true old traditional ones. The techniques within the old kata are the close quarter techniques that contain the locks, breaks, and certain strikes that can’t be realized while sparring. You can get a little more of the feeling with the accompanying drills, but still not the follow through. The follow through can only be felt while doing kata. I guess as tellner eluded to when he said “The real question is how much you need of each of them right now”. Which is a excellent point. All is good, but to what degree.

 

[seasoned]

Yes, I agree, and that is one of my pet peeves when I see some people doing kata. Seems like they just move from one thing to the next, without knowing what they're doing. IMO, they'remissing a big part of the puzzle.

As for combining both...I do Kenpo. Kenpo has kata. I also spar, however, I tend to stay away from the point type sparring, in favor of continuous, as well as more contact, adding in clinch work, ground work, etc.

I don't think, for me anyways, that it hinders anything I'm doing.

You are correct in saying some people just don’t know the moves or bunkai. This is a big problem, and is what causes students to charge styles. When the kata were formed they, as you know, were meant to hide the moves, but there are ways with diligent training, to get a glimpse. Also, not to beat a dead horse from other threads, but this is where cross training plays a part, providing you maintain your base art while doing this.
I will venture To say that at some point in your training you will reach a cross road. You will teach what you feel the student needs and likes to do, but in your free training time kata is what will keep you involved into old age. Nice posting with you.

 

[seasoned]

i think you touched on an important point when you mentioned that you trained drills derived straight from bunkai. in my karate/tkd days, we would do the form, then drills & one steps which looked nothing like the kata, then spar, which also looked nothing like kata. this made it pretty hard for me to take kata seriously at the time (although i was pretty decent at them).

but i suspect you are right about it depending on the point in your life. i know that in 20 years i won't be training like i am now, & it seems likely i'll gravitate towards a style which includes forms training. i still have a soft spot for the various styles of karate.

this brings to mind an interesting question: what about styles that don't include kata? if katas are that important, are their training methods less effective?

jf

I to, went through this same situation, where the kata, looked nothing like the moves. It seemed like we were training two different arts at once. The kata to their detriment, just weren’t meant to read very easily, because of all the secrecy, surrounding them, when they were formed. For those that want a quick fix with some moves they can learn, for SD, mixed with some sport, and some fun and seriousness, then there are definitely a lot of very good arts and styles out there. As you said, maybe at some point in time, 20 yr down the road, you may want to chill a little, and look into some kata based art. If and when you do, I think you will find, because of your background and knowledge base, that the kata of old will open themselves up to you, in a very meaningful way. J
:asian:

 

[just2kicku]

I feel they are equally important. I think there should be a balance between. I don't think one can just concentrate on kata or just on sparring and be balanced. I know if a kata is broken down there are alot of SD techniques. I think they compliment each other. Katas are good way when done slow for beginners to check stances, body position, if blocks are high enough, etc... Sparring is good for cardio, stamina, and timing.
So I honestly think one can't exist without the other. Just my 2cents.
Joe

 

[Steve]

Can someone tell me if they see a difference in benefit between a kata and a drill? I'm looking for a little background here. What does a kata give you? What are the benefits? Is there some mysticism involved that I'm unaware of?

I ask because on the surface of it, kata seems to be a ritualized, sport specific drill. What am I missing, in your opinions?

 

[seasoned]

Can someone tell me if they see a difference in benefit between a kata and a drill? I'm looking for a little background here. What does a kata give you? What are the benefits? Is there some mysticism involved that I'm unaware of?

I ask because on the surface of it, kata seems to be a ritualized, sport specific drill. What am I missing, in your opinions?

Kata is teaching you how to move as a martial artist. It is not just about the techniques within them. If the moves in kata are done right, you learn how to step, breath control, distribute weight properly, not over commit, get off center, follow through with technique, flow, rooting, grounding, uprooting. All of this begins with the way we use our bodies, before we begin to manipulate someone else. Once we have trained our self on how to move, we apply that to a partner, with drills, and then on to free sparring. Each art will have it’s own way of accomplishing this, this is how traditional karate does it. The problem is most karate
Instructors don’t present it this way. Everyone talks about the techniques of kata, and not so much the teaching tool it was meant to be. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

I feel they are equally important. I think there should be a balance between. I don't think one can just concentrate on kata or just on sparring and be balanced. I know if a kata is broken down there are alot of SD techniques. I think they compliment each other. Katas are good way when done slow for beginners to check stances, body position, if blocks are high enough, etc... Sparring is good for cardio, stamina, and timing.
So I honestly think one can't exist without the other. Just my 2cents.
Joe

Very good point. I always felt that kata could be referred to as moving basics. It is a good transition from stationary practice.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I my art the kata are a drill that takes about 3 seconds to perform, usually with a partner.

I think a kata is any choreographed (sp?) move set that should impart some sort of principle or strategy. Once you understand the kata you can use it in randori ( i don't like the term sparring because it makes me think mostly of sport martial arts, which i no longer train in). The two work together.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Which has more relevance over the other.

Relevance to what? The Martial or the Art?

If it's the Martial, the sparring is it. You don't get speed and aggresivness doing forms.

If it's the art, oh Kata for sure. You don't get beauty and control from the ring.

But they both have their place. The best martial artist can do both very well.

Deaf

 

[seasoned]

Relevance to what? The Martial or the Art?

If it's the Martial, the sparring is it. You don't get speed and aggresivness doing forms.

If it's the art, oh Kata for sure. You don't get beauty and control from the ring.

But they both have their place. The best martial artist can do both very well.

Deaf

:asian:

 

[chinto]

Kata is teaching you how to move as a martial artist. It is not just about the techniques within them. If the moves in kata are done right, you learn how to step, breath control, distribute weight properly, not over commit, get off center, follow through with technique, flow, rooting, grounding, uprooting. All of this begins with the way we use our bodies, before we begin to manipulate someone else. Once we have trained our self on how to move, we apply that to a partner, with drills, and then on to free sparring. Each art will have it’s own way of accomplishing this, this is how traditional karate does it. The problem is most karate
Instructors don’t present it this way. Everyone talks about the techniques of kata, and not so much the teaching tool it was meant to be. :asian:

I agree, kata teaches more then the surface first flush techniques as well. there is a great deal to learn from a kata over time. you revisit the kata and see other things as your knowledge increases, they were always there but you did not see it the first time becouse of your frame of refference.

I would argue that kata is more important then sparring. free style sparring is a thing that is only about 100 years old. not that it is not valuble, but kata has been tested over time to work at training you for the real thing. ( the testing being that of survival of the practioner to go on and teach what he learned and knew. men such as Bushi Matsumura and Itosu did not have the free sparing of todays student. and were very efficent in combat. the same can be said for many men of that time! )

 

[seasoned]

I agree, kata teaches more then the surface first flush techniques as well. there is a great deal to learn from a kata over time. you revisit the kata and see other things as your knowledge increases, they were always there but you did not see it the first time becouse of your frame of refference.

I would argue that kata is more important then sparring. free style sparring is a thing that is only about 100 years old. not that it is not valuble, but kata has been tested over time to work at training you for the real thing. ( the testing being that of survival of the practioner to go on and teach what he learned and knew. men such as Bushi Matsumura and Itosu did not have the free sparing of todays student. and were very efficent in combat. the same can be said for many men of that time! )

I think you make a good point. When you are young, you learn kata, get it out of the way, then spar. As you get old, or older, sparring does, and should, take second place to kata. They each serve a need during your training life. The heart of the traditional art lies in the kata, that sometimes only an older mind can appreciate. Or, maybe, just maybe, after years of banging, we decide to readdress this kata thing and, upon looking at it differently, discover a whole new outlook on something that was always there.
:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which has more relevance over the other.

For beginners, kata. Especially rank beginners who have no experience whatsoever (as opposed to if I went to start classes at a taijustu club; I'd be a beginner to their system, but not an MA beginner).

As has been mentioned, kata serve as drills to internalize techniques. With good bunkai, the kata help the student to not only internalize the techniques, but to intellectually understand their application. Without understanding of the application, the beginner only has part of the picture.

Sparring is vitall for developing realtime reflexes and for learning that those techniques don't just magically work.

Needless to say, I consider both equally important, but at different stages of one's advancement, one will take precedence over the other and visa-versa.

Daniel

 

[strikesubmit]

Kata is teaching you how to move as a martial artist. It is not just about the techniques within them. If the moves in kata are done right, you learn how to step, breath control, distribute weight properly, not over commit, get off center, follow through with technique, flow, rooting, grounding, uprooting. All of this begins with the way we use our bodies, before we begin to manipulate someone else. Once we have trained our self on how to move, we apply that to a partner, with drills, and then on to free sparring. Each art will have it’s own way of accomplishing this, this is how traditional karate does it. The problem is most karate
Instructors don’t present it this way. Everyone talks about the techniques of kata, and not so much the teaching tool it was meant to be. :asian:

i have to pose this question then...so, do those adept in say, Muay Thai--which have no kata--NOT "move" like martial artists in your mind?

you mention that kata teaches you how to step, distribute weight properly, not over commit, etc. i've trained under a couple Muay Thai instructors who seem to have all that down.

additionally, the "kata" that most people are discussing in this thread pertain to certain striking styles like karate, no?

so what do we do with a style like judo, which also has kata?

i mean the kata in judo usually involve two people executing moves...similar to the drills we have in bjj. they aren't attacking or defending against imaginary opponents. they are actually applying techniques on their partners. it kinda goes against the idea of what kata is in the minds of some on here.

i think your response to Stevebjj's question--while well thought out--kinda missed the mark because from what i've seen in judo, kata appears to look like drilling.