The value of kata

I find it difficult to agree with anything Still Learning says. But he has a point. When he talks disparagingly about forms and katas almost everyone says "You do jab, cross, hook, uppercut. Isn't that a form? Isn't that the same as a kata?" If you want to be that broad, then "One foot in front of the other" is The Walking Kata. But it's still disingenuous. Because then they say "Any patterned movement is a kata. That patterned movement is good. So whatever patterned movement we do is good." The more honest ones will admit that there's a real difference between a short combination and a whole hyung. But most of them won't.

So yes, he has a point. What he does is qualitatively different. It's not accurate or honest to conflate that and, say the 108 kuen of Wah Lum Praying Mantis.

I wouldn't say walking is on the same lines as when I spoke of boxing combos. The issue here, is that SL is completely disregarding the use of kata..plain and simple! In your analogy of walking...well, there is only one way of walking, compared to multiple ways of throwing boxing combos. Sure, when doing a kata, you do it move by move, from start to finish, but applications can come from anywhere in that kata. When you walk, you dont take a few steps facing forward, then turn sideways, crossing one foot over the next, then turn around and walk backwards, etc.

I think Exile summed it up pretty good with his analogy. Additionally, I have said the same thing...that while in a confrontation, one isn't going to take up a pose and perform move by move, a kata to defend themselves, but instead, just like SD techniques, you're going to extract what you need at the time.

The main issue, as its been said countless times, is not that kata are bad, but instead, the person or people teaching them, don't have a clue what they're doing. How can someone teach someone else if they themselves, don't have a full grasp? Its like giving someone a car, minus the tires.
 
I think that one of the main sources of misunderstandings about the martial content of kata is that they're viewed as novels, rather than collections of short stories, so to speak. Every kata and hyung that I know can be `parsed' into a number of three-to-five move combat scenarios,

This is exactly how American Kenpo forms were presented to me during my short stint with that Art. Long Form 4, for example, has Unfurling Crane, Darting Leaves, and others. This means that the student is taught these motions as self defense techniques in isolation. They are then presented together, flowing into each other in Long Form 4.

It was told to me that American Kenpo has many "hidden" things in it (probably because it just such a robust system?), but in this regard, we see that American Kenpo deliberately exposes many parts of the forms. That is, the meanings of these motions are KNOWN to the student as a matter of course.
 
All I can say is the Seventy five sets of Kata, form or poomsae I know and do, is all bogus and my training is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

And if you believe that then send me your name and address along with 1 million dollars and I will also sell you the biggest and most blue lake they have in the desert.

Thank you all for coming.
 
Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!
 
Okay, that does it... I'm pulling out the "beat a dead horse" picture!

:deadhorse

Of course, I show another one, too, to show good respect!

:shinzaki:
 
Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

What is the value of training at all?

Kata is not important to you - you've made that clear. Kata is, however, important to others, as they (we) have made clear.

As with many other things - if you don't find it valuable for yourself, don't do it - but please don't tell me what is and is not valuable for me. We are all different people, with different experiences, opinions, and needs. What works for you - or doesn't work for you - is different than what does or doesn't work for others. Different is just that - different - but in the context of this discussion, different is neither right nor wrong: it simply is.
 
This is exactly how American Kenpo forms were presented to me during my short stint with that Art. Long Form 4, for example, has Unfurling Crane, Darting Leaves, and others. This means that the student is taught these motions as self defense techniques in isolation. They are then presented together, flowing into each other in Long Form 4.

It was told to me that American Kenpo has many "hidden" things in it (probably because it just such a robust system?), but in this regard, we see that American Kenpo deliberately exposes many parts of the forms. That is, the meanings of these motions are KNOWN to the student as a matter of course.

Bill Burgar, in his magnificent study of the Shotokan kata Gojushiho, to which he devotes five years studying exclusively, consistently describes kata as a mnemonic system, whereby a relatively large number of practical combat `scripts' can be ingrained into muscle memory at once. One of the things I found about Combat Hapkido, whose short drill sequences are not linked together into kata, is that it's... well, it's bloody hard to remember all (or even a good chunk) of the drills! As time goes on, I see more and more the wisdom of taking discrete fighting combinations and threading them together into a whole that can be learned relatively quickly.

All I can say is the Seventy five sets of Kata, form or poomsae I know and do, is all bogus and my training is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

And if you believe that then send me your name and address along with 1 million dollars and I will also sell you the biggest and most blue lake they have in the desert.

Thank you all for coming.

:lol:

Don't worry, Terry... or maybe, do worry: you're not going to get many takers. Meanwhile, console yourself with the thought that Geoff Thompson, probably the most experienced professional streetfighter—no other way to describe him—currently living, a sixth dan Shotokan karateka, instructor and dojo owner who was involved in more than 300 violent encounters in his ten years as a club bouncer/doorman/security manager in club in Coventry, one of the most notoriously violent cities in the English Midlands, by all accounts—had this to say about kata in his great book on adopting TMAs to street combat, The Pavement Arena:

kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation...

...if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer enormous benefits to the street-oriented.... a closer look at kata will divulge not only the manoeuvres we have all come to know and love, but also grappling movements, throws, hook and uppercut punches, eye gouges, grabs, knee attacks, ankle stomps, joint strikes, head-butting and even ground-fighting techniques... when I had my own karate club all these techniques and more were covered. Why? Because they encompass every eventuality in all scenarios, a necessity if one is to be at all prepared for an attack.


(pp.62–63) My feeling is, if someone is not the perceptive MAist Thompson is hoping to reach, well, too bad for them, eh? Really, what happens to them isn't our concern—there are none so blind, etc. etc. I've come to the conclusion, after thinking about it for a bit, that if people won't even look at the evidence contained in the testimony of the elite street combatants of our era—people like Thompson, or Peter Consterdine, the eighth dan Shotokan ace who was an English International in Karate and spent eight years and several hundred barroom fights as—guess what?—a doorman/bouncer/security manger in a club in Manchester, and many others of that stripe—then there's no point in wasting precious lifetime trying to convince 'em, or pointing to evidence they won't pay attention to, or anything like that. I mean, that's their lookout, right? You've been in this game a long, long time and know just how much information there is locked up in those hyungs... someone else doesn't see it and won't try to learn what they don't know, it's not your problem, eh?
 
Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!


For the last time S_L Kata Forms or Poomsae are you make of it to me the value is plenty, for I understand the SD principle that are involved for someone like you 000.00% you see no value at all. Too bad your eye cannot see past the smoke and mirrors you have up around your place.
 
For the last time S_L Kata Forms or Poomsae are you make of it to me the value is plenty, for I understand the SD principle that are involved for someone like you 000.00% you see no value at all. Too bad your eye cannot see past the smoke and mirrors you have up around your place.

Terry, see my previous post. I understand your frustration, mate, but cheer up. If someone won't even look at the evidence, that's one less person you have to worry about convincing, eh?

Kacey said:
As with many other things - if you don't find it valuable for yourself, don't do it - but please don't tell me what is and is not valuable for me. We are all different people, with different experiences, opinions, and needs. What works for you - or doesn't work for you - is different than what does or doesn't work for others. Different is just that - different - but in the context of this discussion, different is neither right nor wrong: it simply is.

Put as succinctly and as rationally as possible!

It's a simple thought, really: `If you don't like it, don't do it, but stop constantly, endlessly nagging at those of us who see the value of it...'— how could anyone with even a little bit of basic sense argue with that??

I hereby offer a simple solution to the problem of kata/hyungs/hsings/etc: those who don't see any value in it—don't do it. Those who do—continue to do it, and communicate, to the others of us who also see that value, your thoughts about the hows, whys and wherefores of analyzing and training kata/hyungs/hsings/etc. Then everyone will be happy, eh?! :)
 
Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!

Kata, IMO, is just one small piece of the package, along with everything else. Some obviously will place it higher or lower depending on their training. I have kata at every belt level, so I suppose I can't neglect it too much. :)
 
If kata dose nothing else it helps the muscles remember certain things.
If the person doing the kata is at home practicing then at least they got off their rear end and may be getting some exercise

 
If kata dose nothing else it helps the muscles remember certain things.
If the person doing the kata is at home practicing then at least they got off their rear end and may be getting some exercise

Another side effect of kata I've found is it's almost like meditation, when you are doing a kata, concentrating on the moves ( and Bunkai) the world seems further off and your mind clears. The physical effort involved too is more than a lot of people think. For children I've found it trains them to use both sides of their bodies, when kata is done as a class they learn to be aware of where everyone else is ( useful for fighting) and learn to concentrate ( useful for everything). When done solo in front of the class the children learn confidence and you can see them shine with pride and achievement when they've just performed like this. I always praise the children for good effort and for getting up to do it, I never correct them at the time when we do this. Nor do I force them to get up but they are all willing to give it a try. Is this MA training? I think so.
 
Kihon(basics)-16.67%
Kata, hyungs-16.67%
Physical conditioning-16.67%
Self-defense and step sparring-16.67%
Sparring-16.67%
Breaking-16.67%

For me and mine it is one of the parts held equally with the others.
 
Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?
 
Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?

still_learning, in a previous post I made the following suggestion:

I hereby offer a simple solution to the problem of kata/hyungs/hsings/etc: those who don't see any value in it—don't do it. Those who do—continue to do it, and communicate, to the others of us who also see that value, your thoughts about the hows, whys and wherefores of analyzing and training kata/hyungs/hsings/etc. Then everyone will be happy, eh?! :)

I would like to urge you to consider adopting this as your own policy when questions of kata come up. The advantages are many, and will save everyone a good deal of needless frustration. You, for your part, will go on not doing kata, and will be saved the trouble of giving us reasons not to do kata that make no sense to us whatever. We will continue doing kata, and will not try further to persuade you to examine the evidence that kata contribute centrally to a total SD strategy. We've read what you have to say, considered it and rejected it. You've read what we have to say, and apparently reject it. So why not simply accept that there's nothing more we have to say to each other?
 
Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?


If you aee no value in Kata Poomsae Forms then why do you post so much, see I believe deep down inside you want somebody that actually knows all the right application to come out and say I will teach. Well guess what I'am giving you an open invitation to do just that anytime you are in my neck of the woods I would be happy to take a week and go over all the application in one of them for. This way you can see first hand how and when they can help you with your SD.

I'm not being sarcastic and I know you are in Hawaii but if anytime you find yourself coming this way or next time I visit Hawaii I would more than be happy to teach.

Take care and ALOHA.
 
still_learning, in a previous post I made the following suggestion:



I would like to urge you to consider adopting this as your own policy when questions of kata come up. The advantages are many, and will save everyone a good deal of needless frustration. You, for your part, will go on not doing kata, and will be saved the trouble of giving us reasons not to do kata that make no sense to us whatever. We will continue doing kata, and will not try further to persuade you to examine the evidence that kata contribute centrally to a total SD strategy. We've read what you have to say, considered it and rejected it. You've read what we have to say, and apparently reject it. So why not simply accept that there's nothing more we have to say to each other?


Hello, When the questions of others ask about "Kata'a and it Value? ...should I and others like me NOT Voice our thougths....and let this discussion be ONLY ONE WAY....just the agreeable point of view?

I am sure those in question? ...want to hear from all sides? ....do you agree? .....all points of view helps one to see the whole picture.

Most of the questioners? ...will read the concensus....and go with the majority of point of views? Those of us in the minority...at least was heard?

Some see the inside of things...others the just outside.....or some another side? ....in martial arts...lots of things are view differently....Kata's will forever have it controversy....People will want to know anld hear the many of point views? (they may see something they never thought of before)

It it better to just be agreeable? Many times when you see others point of view? ...it just makes yours points stronger.....this can be very good?

NO longer a sheep....NO longer just following...Always looking to learning more......we do learn from past mistakes...sometimes this is best way of learning........Kata? ...I too is searching for truths or values of it! ...my opinion may change again? ....who knows what the future will tell!

It is good to hear from both sides..........Thank-you and I do care about what you say here!

Aloha ...."OH what a lonely feeling" ...just kidding here!
 
Hello, When the questions of others ask about "Kata'a and it Value? ...should I and others like me NOT Voice our thougths....and let this discussion be ONLY ONE WAY....just the agreeable point of view?

The problem is, still_learning, that it's not a discussion. You ask a question, get a huge amount of contentful information pointing to misconceptions you appear to have about something, and then proceed to post in a way which takes nothing you've been told into account. After a while, people decide it's a waste of time, since the information you've been provided, and the evidence you keep asking for, goes nowhere. You keep going on, for example, about `no longer acting like sheep', but in fact you've been given hard-core evidence of exactly how to use and train kata, and of the experience of very experienced fighters who have done so, showing a basis in actual experience that does not depend in the least on sheep-like acceptance of these points. I and a number of other people who've responded do indeed analyze and train kata this way and have tried to point out the various ways in which you've misunderstood what kata are for and how to train them. And you pay not the slightest attention; your posts give not the slightest indication that anything at all that's been said has registered.

Give all this, the fact is that it would be better all around if instead of soliciting information that you then disregard, you simply stopped soliciting that information in the first place and repeating opinions which do not take any of that information into account. It would (i) save you the trouble of posting, since the results would be the same, and (ii) save the people who respond to you the frustration and annoyance of taking time to answer your questions only to have you ignore the answers. It would also (iii) save us from having to be in the position of simply ignoring you, which eventually is probably what will happen—since replying to you yields nothing except more of what you were saying before you got information relevant to your query, information which you continue to disregard.

Given (i)–(iii), it should be clear to you why my simple suggestion will save both you and everyone else a lot of trouble for these reasons, and the results will be the same as when you post and then ignore the responses you get, and when we post and you disregard the content of our messages. Do you see now why I made that suggestion?
 
I do concur with the sentiments encapsulated above, which eloquently lays out what has been suggested several times in this thread alone (let alone a number of others).

S_L, none of us like having to argue this point over and over and the aggrivation it's causing is a most unpleasant tension to gather.

I'm sure that most involved in this endless treadmill would not use 'negative rep' as a stick to beat you with, so it's not that type of reputation I'm speaking of when I say as kindly as I can that you are not doing yourself any favours by continuing as you are.

We know where you stand on this and you know where we stand. To continually resurrect it will only cause unnecessary disruption and that is not good for any of us.
 
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