Karl Rove - Valerie Plame - Joseph Wilson - Exposing a CIA covert operative

[michaeledward]

http://www.antimedia.us/posts/1121317604.shtml
Using links in from here, I can find stories from other newspapers that say Plame's identification as a cia operative was public knowledge before 2003. I can also find newspaper accounts that say Rove exposed her in 2003.

Who to believe?

As someone else indicated earlier ... if Ms. Plames covert status was public knowledge prior to Mr. Novak's column (and Mr. Rove's and Mr. Libby's confirmations), why would the CIA ask the Justice Department to being an investigation into who released the information?

Answering this question, allows us to begin to understand the other news reports.

But, regardless of what was common knowledge when, did Mr. Rove have the authority to confirm the information to a reporter. No - not according to the agreement he signed when given Top Secret Security Clearances.

Also, when the President asked for those in his administration to come forward with any information about the leak (20 months ago), did Mr. Rove inform the President that he confirmed Ms. Plame's employment to Mr. Novak or that he informed Mr. Cooper of Mrs. Wilson's employment - as the President demanded? If so, what actions has the President taken based on that knowledge? (I mean, other than promoting Mr. Rove?)

Oh, and Pheonix44 --- be sure to check out David Corn's blog. The Right Wing smear machine is not trying to spin the story that David Corn (writer for 'The Nation') actually broke Ms. Plames 'covert' status. Mr. Corn slices and dices the accusations into a fine salsa, but, that doesn't stop the story from being repeated. Over and Over and Over.

 

[Tgace]

Not Partisan Politics?

George W. Bush won reelection in 2004 because the American people believed he represented a morally superior brand of American. Karl Rove successfully branded President Bush as a man of integrity, a morally upright, dependable and honest Christian man who could be trusted to run the nation. Other than terrorism, the morally upright image that the Republicans have fostered continues to be one issue on which they cannot be beat.

In April, I attended a private lecture Bill Clinton gave to a small group of Democrats in New England. In the lecture, Clinton outlined a plan for how his party could take away Republican moral superiority, and take back power in Washington. He explained that Democrats must be willing to play dirty if they are going to succeed. Republicans will keep winning, Clinton explained, as long as Democrats are unwilling to go on the attack, to undermine Republicans, and to discredit their opponents.

It is in accordance with Clinton’s political calculus, then, that a campaign be formulated in which a series of Republican figureheads are brought down in scandalous moral failures. Republicans lose their moral superiority, and can no longer use it to win elections. Democrats may be no better, but they’ll be the only alternative. And perhaps, after ten years of being on the losing team, the Democrats will, once again, be able to run at least the House, the Senate, or the White House.

Please....:shrug:

 

[michaeledward]

Let us all remember, that Bill Clinton has two ex-wives less then Newt Gingrich.

Bill Clinton never had to drive his mistress to an abortion clinic (at least that we know) like Henry Hyde.

The number of 'Republican' moral failings is big enough not to need the President's say-so on anything.


Referring to the article you link too ...

Of course, 'Ethan Wingfield' is one of the prime thinkers' in the American community today. You would think a company that publishes a magazine, would have its address somewhere on its web page ... .Nope !

Ethan Wingfield appears to be some low-level employee at Brown university, perhaps only a student, perhaps not.

How long and far did you have to search to find this drivel? Good Grief.

 

[Marginal]

Oh, and Pheonix44 --- be sure to check out David Corn's blog. The Right Wing smear machine is not trying to spin the story that David Corn (writer for 'The Nation') actually broke Ms. Plames 'covert' status. Mr. Corn slices and dices the accusations into a fine salsa, but, that doesn't stop the story from being repeated. Over and Over and Over.

Classic Rovian logic. Repeat something enough, and it's suddenly true.

 

[michaeledward]

Classic Rovian logic. Repeat something enough, and it's suddenly true.

It's a good thing there is so much 'Media Bias', and all those in the Media are so 'Liberal'; that way, all the Rovian repetition gets edited out of the stories and . . . oh, wait.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Hmmm...poor caricature of Bush below.



Regards,


Steve

 

[Ray]

Let us all remember, that Bill Clinton has two ex-wives less then Newt Gingrich.

You have to give Hillary credit for standing by her man.

Bill Clinton never had to drive his mistress to an abortion clinic (at least that we know) like Henry Hyde.

Maybe that's because cigars don't cause pregnancy?

The number of 'Republican' moral failings is big enough not to need the President's say-so on anything.

Republicans may have moral failings, but Bill Clinton is not the guy to hold up as an example.

 

[michaeledward]

Republicans may have moral failings, but Bill Clinton is not the guy to hold up as an example.

Well, Mr. Tgace, quoted from an article stating that President Clinton is offering grand designs to take over the world by having the Democratic people in the Northeast attack Republican 'moral values'.

The article was written by, what appears to be, a semi-successful web designer, campus Christian leader from Ashville, North Carolina, and was published on what Al Franken refers to as the 'prestigious internet'.

As, the attack was directed at the former President, I thought it best to discuss moral values from the point of view of the attacked.

Maybe you're right though, a better example might be a Vietnam war hero, with multiple Purple Hearts and a Silver Star, someone who fought crime and corruption as a district attorney, someone who has served in the most prestigious club in the world (the Senate) for 18 years ... ahhh ... naw.

Bill Clinton oversaw the largest peacetime expansion of the economy ever. Bill Clinton (with the help of some morally flawed Republicans) created the largest government surplus in the history of the country. What's not to love?

Good Policy....???

 

[TonyM.]

I believe that they'll throw Rove to the wolves in a deal to stop impeachment proceedings against Cheney.

 

[michaeledward]

Republicans may have moral failings, but Bill Clinton is not the guy to hold up as an example.

Maybe I could hold up a fine, outstanding Congressman as comparison. Hmmm, I'm thinking, maybe Representative Donald Sherwood (R-Pa). Sure, maybe he screwed around on his wife for five years, but, he never 'abused', Miss Ore (Cynthia Ore, his mistress, not Miss Oregon).

Of course, the comparisons to Clinton .. Representative Sherwood was 58 when the affair began; Miss Ore was 23.

Got to love it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8663594/

 

[FearlessFreep]

How many people that vote democrat or republican do you personally know that have affairs? I don't know many, myself. I think this is just an example where those involved in politics, on both sides, don't really represent the people they represent. Or maybe they do, I dunno...in any random population of 535 people, how many are cheating on their spouses?

Not that it really has much to do with the matter at hand.

What saddens me is that someone died, and rather than try to find out how and why, the focus is on how to use it for political advantage. Some desperately want Karl Rove to have done something wrong and some desperately want him not to have done anything wrong and it's all based on what political damage it does to or doesn't do to the President.

 

[DngrRuss]

First- the serious part of this post:
With all this hubbub surrounding "who said what" and "well, innocent before proven guilty" and whatnot, Rove should simply man-up and resign for the good of the administration. Since he was instrumental in portraying GWB and this administration as having a higher moral standard, even the hint of impropriety should be looked at with great scrutiny. Whether what was done constitutes a crime or not, it was simply grossly innapropriate and arrogant of Rove to make such statements to the press and then allow the White House and the Republican machine to try to cover his tracks and spin it to the point it is now- confusing and seeming like a cover-up.

Second- the sarcastic part:
Scooter Libby should be removed from this administration for one reason- how can we as a country be taken seriously with a guy named Scooter hanging around the White House? I mean, c'mon... what's next- Billy-Bob, Skeeter, Cletus, and Stinky? Are Banjos going to be mandatory at staff meetings? Will there be a maximum tooth count of 8 per head? Will the hound dogs be allowed to run around the oval office 'til Laura Bush yells, "get them dawgs outta here"?

Eight years of Bubba- now eight years of Snuffy Smith. No wonder noone takes us seriously.

 

[Ray]

First- the serious part of this post:
With all this hubbub surrounding "who said what" and "well, innocent before proven guilty" and whatnot, Rove should simply man-up and resign for the good of the administration.

Good idea...And OJ should have pled guilty and Michael Jackson should have pled guilty. And US Grant should have resigned his commision as a general (a womanizer, drunkard, etc) even though he was a "battle-winner" (horrible president though). And Clinton should have resigned for lying. And Hillary should have been shot for the white-house travel office fiasco. In fact, anyone who gets criticized should just give in and give up.

If you aren't being criticized by someone, then you're not doing anything.

Second- the sarcastic part:
how can we as a country be taken seriously with a guy named Scooter hanging around the White House? I mean, c'mon... what's next- Billy-Bob, Skeeter, Cletus, and Stinky?...

Were you describing Scooter Libby or James Carvell?

 

[DngrRuss]

Good idea...And OJ should have pled guilty and Michael Jackson should have pled guilty. And US Grant should have resigned his commision as a general (a womanizer, drunkard, etc) even though he was a "battle-winner" (horrible president though). And Clinton should have resigned for lying. And Hillary should have been shot for the white-house travel office fiasco. In fact, anyone who gets criticized should just give in and give up.

If you aren't being criticized by someone, then you're not doing anything.

Were you describing Scooter Libby or James Carvell?

OJ and Michael Jackson are not part of a government elected based upon the "higher moral standard" they supposedly set. They are celebrities. I let my dollars speak for me when it comes to celebrities. I didn't put Michael Jackson into the position he is in now as a pop culture icon since I have never purchased his records or gone to his concerts. I am not affected by anything he says or does and my opinion as to his guilt or innocence is irrelevant since I was not on the jury. I will say, that if Jacko were on the board of directors of some corporation- say a record company- it would not be wrong for other members of the board and the stockholders to ask ofr his resignation to protect the company's assets and reputation at the onset of the criminal charges and before trial.

I can not "boycott" the President or his administration. They make decisions that do affect me and, whether I voted for him or not, I cannot ignore their words and actions like I can a celebrity's. It's not like Rove would be out in the cold and destitute if he resigned. Bush, Rove, and their cronies have made morality, ethics, and honesty the cornerstones of their talking points and stump speeches. That being said, when it even appears that someone in the administration has not lived up to the standards that they themselves set, they should not be surprised or cry "foul" when the jackals start nipping at their heels.

My suggestion of resignation has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. I said that it would be for the good of the administration. It would help to take the spotlight off this issue and maybe put it back where it belongs- the war, torrorism, the economy, the environment, etc.

As for James Carvell- while I agree that he comes off like a carnival barker- at least his name is James, not "Cooter" or "Zippy" or "Goober".

 

[Ray]

OJ and Michael Jackson are not part of a government elected based upon the "higher moral standard" they supposedly set. They are celebrities. I let my dollars speak for me when it comes to celebrities.

Your right. If OJ is indeed a killer and Jackson is indeed an abuser of children, then let's let our dollars speak for us.

and my opinion as to his guilt or innocence is irrelevant since I was not on the jury.

Likewise with Rove.

It's not like Rove would be out in the cold and destitute if he resigned.

How compassionate. Let's take the newspaper account, Plame's public statements and make Rove resign - forget about the investigation...he'll be okay. Hey, if Rove did bad, maybe he did more bad that the investigation will uncover---we might want to know what other security issues have been compromised?

Bush, Rove, and their cronies have made morality, ethics, and honesty the cornerstones of their talking points and stump speeches. That being said, when it even appears that someone in the administration has not lived up to the standards that they themselves set, they should not be surprised or cry "foul" when the jackals start nipping at their heels.

Or even accused of not living up to the standards they set.

My suggestion of resignation has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

That's a relief. And why should it have anything to do with being guilty or being innocent? If someone's accused, then let's hang 'em.

As for James Carvell- while I agree that he comes off like a carnival barker- at least his name is James, not "Cooter" or "Zippy" or "Goober".

Oddly enough, whenever I listen to Carvell, I'm almost tempted to go to the dark side; until I give it a good think.

 

[DngrRuss]

Your right. If OJ is indeed a killer and Jackson is indeed an abuser of children, then let's let our dollars speak for us.
Likewise with Rove.
How compassionate. Let's take the newspaper account, Plame's public statements and make Rove resign - forget about the investigation...he'll be okay. Hey, if Rove did bad, maybe he did more bad that the investigation will uncover---we might want to know what other security issues have been compromised?
Or even accused of not living up to the standards they set.
That's a relief. And why should it have anything to do with being guilty or being innocent? If someone's accused, then let's hang 'em.
Oddly enough, whenever I listen to Carvell, I'm almost tempted to go to the dark side; until I give it a good think.

I just love bing taken out of context- makes me feel all tingly inside. Or is that gas?

Though, Darth Carvell has a nice ring to it.

 

[Ray]

I just love bing taken out of context-...

I didn't think I did; I guess what I read from it may not have been what you intended.

makes me feel all tingly inside. Or is that gas?

Although I'm very tempted to respond...

Though, Darth Carvell has a nice ring to it.

It does, doesn't it.

 

[Marginal]

If Rove did resign, would it mean anything? He's Bush's own amoral Yoda. I doubt it would weaken his influence or somehow make him less than 2000% evil. (Meaning, he's very good at what he does, twisting fact, negating personal responsibility, relabeling bad things to make them seem neutral or even good, blaming others for his failings all to further his own agenda.) Somehow I doubt even a straight up conviction complete with death sentence for treasonous acts of treason would amount to anything.

 

[DngrRuss]

If Rove did resign, would it mean anything? He's Bush's own amoral Yoda. I doubt it would weaken his influence or somehow make him less than 2000% evil. (Meaning, he's very good at what he does, twisting fact, negating personal responsibility, relabeling bad things to make them seem neutral or even good, blaming others for his failings all to further his own agenda.) Somehow I doubt even a straight up conviction complete with death sentence for treasonous acts of treason would amount to anything.

Mean anything? Probably not in the big picture. But, it would help the administration save face and get back to business. I am not a fan of this administration (as if you couldn't tell), but I do want them to get back to business and worry less about spin and politics.

Shhh- okay, are the right-wingers not looking? Here's how I see it. If the administration gets "back to business", they will continue to stick to us and piss us off. This Rove thing is small potatos compared to the truly evil crap going on. Let's not get distracted from the real issues and keep stabbing at the administration until they can't take it anymore. This Plame thing has been spun and spun until it's so convoluted that it really should be left to the courts.

If Rove would resign thogh, it would help to lessen their credability (can anyone say Spiro Agnew) and roust them out in '08. This is just between us- Don't tell the Republicans about our little scheme.

 

[michaeledward]

Some very interesting testimony today before the Democrats on Capital Hill (House Government Reform Committee). One James Marcinkowski, a former CIA case officer, and former prosecutor put forth some pretty damning thoughts about what 'under cover' means, and how the CIA views the outing of Ms. Plame.

So how is the Valerie Plame incident perceived by any current or potential agent of the CIA? I will guarantee you that if the local police chief identified the names of the department's undercover officers, any half-way sophisticated undercover operation would come to a halt and if he survived that accidental discharge of a weapon in police headquarters, would be asked to retire.

And so the real issues before this Congress and this country today is not partisan politics, not even the loss of secrets. The secrets of Valerie Plame's cover are long gone. What has suffered perhaps irreversible damage is the credibility of our case officers when they try to convince our overseas contact that their safety is of primary importance to us. How are our case officers supposed to build and maintain that confidence when their own government cannot even guarantee the personal protection of the home team? While the loss of secrets in the world of espionage may be damaging, the stealing of the credibility of our CIA officers is unforgivable....

And so we are left with only one fundamental truth, the U.S. government exposed the identity of a covert operative. I am not convinced that the toothpaste can be put back into the tube. Great damage has been done and that damage has been increasing every single day for more than two years. The problem of the refusal to accept responsibility by senior government officials is ongoing and causing greater damage to our national security and our ability to collect human intelligence. But the problem lies not only with government officials but also with the media, commentators and other apologists who have no clue as to the workings of the intelligence community. Think about what we are doing from the perspective of our overseas human intelligence assets or potential assets.

The full article is here:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=7948

P.S. - Tom, did you get that first paragraph?