Originally posted by Karazenpo
I'm from a direct subsytem of Kajukenbo-Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu. Most everyone covered all the bases on the differences and/or similarities of American Kenpo and Kajukenbo. The core or nucleus of these systems are more similiar than different, however, the major difference that I do see is the lack of groundwork and grappling in American Kenpo. Most EPAK schools that I know of that teach grappling at all take it from another system for it is not included in their curriculum. I've heard some make a case by saying that they don't have to go to the ground or grapple, they end the fight standing up! That's pure fantasy to me! Being in law enforcement since 1977, fights can unexpectedly go to the ground, so expect the unexpected and train for it. Some have even replied that they will counter any takedown-again-fantasy! It could be a slip on your part, an act of God as they say, an icy parking lot, wet street, snow, uneven terrain or your opponent simply takes you down! This to me is the main difference. I have also heard, but don't know for sure, that American Kenpo doesn't concentrate on weapon defenses as intense as Kajukenbo, again, it's just something I've heard over the years. There is not too much jui jitsu either in the American Kenpo from what I've seen. The traditional Kajukenbo & Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu training is definitely hardcore. I really don't know how hard Mr. Parker trained his students as far as that goes but let me also state I have the highest respect for Mr. Parker, his kenpo system and his overall contributions to the martial arts world. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras
PS: There is an offshoot system of Kajukenbo of the late Grandmaster Bill Gregory called Kajuken"P"o Pai Lum which sometimes confuses people on the spelling of the original system. Other offshoots have also used Kajukenpo to distinguish their art from the mother system.
Hi Joe! [great first name you got there! lol!]
I was reading your post and I wanted to make a few comments on it...
1. As a black belt in both lineages, i'd like to address one of the common falicies commonly perpectuated as of late through the kenpo community,which is "American Kenpo had 90% of the Jujutsu/jujitsu taken out of it" which would somewhat colaborate your statement eluding to the lack of "groundwork or grappling" in EPAKK. First of all, that particular comment was written by another kenpo systems website long ago and has since been removed from it, and i've written extensive post on at least 2 kenpo message boards blowing more holes out of that statement than swiss cheese! As a past and present practitioner of the grappling arts, I can definitely vouch for the amount of "stand up grappling" techniques in kenpo, but as i mentioned in a previous post on this thread, they are normally introduced as attacks which you defend yourself against, and intergrated in subiquent techniques. As far as "groundwork" are you meaning "newaza" [ground techniques"] as far as i've seen,american kenpo,kajukenbo, and karazenpo all suffer from a lack of material in this area until the advent of the BJJ phenomenom in the 1990's. If you are refering to techniques like "osoto gari" [major outside reap"] or other "standing" judo/jujutsu throws/sweeps/reaps/ and takedowns, they are in all the above mentioned styles/systems and are not considered groundwork, but rather "tachi waza" [standing techniques]. The last thing most kenpo people want to do is be on the ground with an opponent!
2. As far as fighting upright as opposed to the "90% of all fights end up on the ground" mindset, I definitely have had my fair share of "incidents" and i've gone to ,or been taken to the ground in an extremely small percentage of those fights. I find the previous quote to be a "partyline" quoted by grapplers. Now, mind you, i've had the sheer pleasure of working with some of the finest martial astist who are master kenpoists as well as grapplers [David German immediately comes to mind!]. In regards to the L.E.O. slant on the point, many times a grapple will occur during handcuffing, or a suspect will go for your sevice sidearm, or a drunken or high wildmen "giving you a hug" analogy. I concur with you on the "random factors" that will cause you to be taken down and that you should be aware of how to handle it, but, as i said earlier, none of the above mentioned styles addressed that in detail until recently.
3. In regards to the amount of weapon defenses in american kenpo,i'll detail them out on another post,and if Mr. Bishop will be so kind, he can give a list of the kajukenbo techniques as well. Please provide a list of the techniques from Mr. Pesare's system and we can compare and contrast the similarities and differences!
4. Like all kenpo systems, you have "hardcore" schools and "commercial" studios, many of the "old timers" would ask for "old time" classes with "the good stuff" ,which consisted of drilling basics into the ground and sweating your brains out and or "bare knuckle"sparring and blasting off techniques on each other in the "technique line" with more than sufficent force!
5. RE: PS: Bill Gregory's Kajukenpo-Pai Lum system is an offshoot of Nick Cerio's early kenpo system and is therefore closer to George Pesare's "kaito gakko" than most people realize. There were no pinan forms in "shir Tai Gung"s style, only the katas Prof. Cerio learned from mr. Pesare, so that dates the training and influence. The reason for the "Kajukenpo" was multi fold. First, it was to give credit to the hawaiian roots of the that particular aspect of the art,second, to acknowledge other martial arts influences that contributed to GM Gregory's martial arts training.thirdly The "bo" was left out of name not only because of it not being directly from Emperado's art, but also because the "chinese boxing" [kung fu] was provided by the Pai Lum lineage of Daniel Kane Pai and was already duely noted in the name of the art. Al Gene Caluia [a former "john keehan/Count Dante" student as well as kajukenbo BB] uses "Kajukenpo" as well.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
