Justification to break?

[Koga-Shinobi]

My question: If someone attacks you (not on the street ie mugging, or with weapons involved) by just throwing some punches at you...are you justified (personally and legally), even if he is intent on smashing your face in, to defend yourself by breaking his joints (ie. side-kick to the knee, or if you have taken him down and have a wrist-lock on him, to break that wrist)??

 

[Idaten]

Alot of it depends on the situation and your vs. his physical stature. The bottom line, however, is that you must do what is necessary to defend yourself.

 

[Carbon]

I don't know, breaking a knee cap is to me cold blooded.

I don't think I would have the art to permanetly disable someone no matter what they tried to do to me.

I would try to disable them and take the weapon but other then that I wouldn't do any permanent damage that would hurt them so bad.

 

[Bod]

Keep twisting the wrist until he lets go of the knife. Tickle his ribs with your feet if you have to.

It's better for him to have a broken wrist, which will heal, than for you, and possibly people standing around to get stabbed.

You don't have to be vengeful, or inflict punishment. You simply have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

 

[Bod]

If you are not likely to get hurt -i.e. there is no weapon, you can choose to fight back proportionaly, get beaten, or walk away. And your choice is yours to make.

There are plenty of ways to hurt people temporarily. If you don't have enough skill to defend youself without hurting your attacker then you'll have to hurt him. That's why I train. So that I have more chances to avoid hurting people .

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi

My question: If someone attacks you (not on the street ie mugging, or with weapons involved) by just throwing some punches at you...are you justified (personally and legally), even if he is intent on smashing your face in, to defend yourself by breaking his joints (ie. side-kick to the knee, or if you have taken him down and have a wrist-lock on him, to break that wrist)??

I'm confused as to what the situation is. Someone is punching you, but it isn't a mugging and no weapons are involved. Is it like a fight situation then? In my mind, this could be a "simple" bar fight or an angry friend.

If so, then IMO breaking is not justified, especially if you are a trained martial artist. You should be able to defend yourself without causing more permanent damage. And remember, no matter who started it, a fight is not self defense and you can be arrested as well as he. Your recourse is to block the attack to the best of your ability and retreat as possible, that's self defense. If you fail to retreat when possible, you are just as guilty as he in the eyes of the law.

I would reserve breaking as a last resort versus weapons or if there is no retreat possible and you fear for your life; not for some petty posturing and bickering.

WhiteBirch

 

[MartialArtist]

I would rather have the assailant not attack me by either temporarily or permantly disabling him than causing harm.

Self-defense isn't pretty unfortunately.

 

[Abbax8]

This is true and totally factual. When I was in high school word got out that I was doing judo. The toughs decided to test me. It started with words and challanges which I ignored. One day a kid took a swing at me. My reflexes enabled me to duck under the swing, I pushed his arm and shoulder forward so that he had to take a step. He was kind of surprised and that ended it. The next week he sucker punched me in the jaw. I rolled with it, he knocked off my glasses but essentially I was not hurt. We exchanged words but that was it. A few weeks later in gym class I was hanging upside down on the rings when he came up and punched me in the stomach. Now this kid wrestled at about 185, he was big and strong. I used to do 500 situps a day though, don't do 30 a day now. The punch didn't do much. As he walked away I got off the rings and ran up behind him and asked him if I could HELP him? HIS JAW DROPPED to see me standing there. He didn't come near me for the next two years until graduation, and all the other toughs decided to look elsewhere for their fun. Yes I got hit a couple times, but the blows even though delivered in an attempt to hurt and do damage weren't as hard as some of the hits I took in randori on a regular basis. I was able to defeat my opponents without crippling them. Of this I am proud. My advice then is to walk away, even if you get hit. Now if the attack is continuous, mine were always one shot deals, you need to defend. But perhaps a strike to the solar plexus is better than to the knee. Why cause possible permanent injury when you do not need to.

Peace
Dennis

 

[c2kenpo]

This is purley subjective when it comes to breaking because of How many different scenarios can we come up with for just somone punching at you.
Drunk person that really poses no threat, one time swinger mad at you/someone, etc etc etc...the list of What if goes on almost forever.

Personally, as I have taken Kenpo now for that last few years I have seen many ways to "disable" an opponent however every time we "see" new ways I have to think of how this will affect that person permanently. I belive that a true Martial Artist is one that not only can cause severe damage and destroy but one that can heal and mend as well. I belive that I should always try to maintain that no matter what the attack is, I should TRY to meet it with one step below the attacks level.

However this now goes to the first person view, second person view, and third person view. every fight that occurs everyone will view from thier perspective differently. The one that says "Am I justified" is doing this is always going to be YOU when that event occurs. The rest of us on the third person view will see it differently.

To touch on the legal point, do anything to "damage" someone in a way that may remain permanent, i.e. "breaking" and in todays world of obesity,clumsyness (sp?), and "it's not my responsibility" lawsuits. One answer sums it up, Know the possible consequences.

Okay let me get off here now :soapbox:

:asian: David "C2" Gunzburg

 

[7starmantis]

I think the actual issue is self-defense rather than fighting. If you are defending yourself, you should be fighting like that person is trying to take your life. You should do whatever is neccessary to leave them on the ground and you walk away. If your thinking of should you break or not, you are not in a true sef-defense situation anyway I don't believe.
If its just a stupid fight, your best if you can just walk away, from there you go into a block, throw, walk or run away, I believe. Escilate as needed from there.


7sm

 

[Nightingale]

an attack requires an appropriate response...

I feel this is a situation where gender differences can matter. If a man punches another man, he can be just goofing around, dealing with agression, or whatever, with no intent to actually seriously harm the other party... however, if a man is punching a woman, it is usually another matter entirely. Therefore, if a man was punching me, I would use whatever force I felt necessary to neutralize the threat.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

an attack requires an appropriate response...

I feel this is a situation where gender differences can matter. If a man punches another man, he can be just goofing around, dealing with agression, or whatever, with no intent to actually seriously harm the other party... however, if a man is punching a woman, it is usually another matter entirely. Therefore, if a man was punching me, I would use whatever force I felt necessary to neutralize the threat.

Thats a good point, and it also shows that this subject is very subjective. What may be totally life threatening for one person could be completely harmless for another. It all comes down to your life and if you feel it is in danger.

7sm

 

[Bod]

I see a gap in the market!

Being a computer programmer, it should be easy to create a Martial Response Calculator, that assesses a level of threat, multiplies it by a vulnerability factor, and a skills index, factors in the environmental features, and suggests an appropriate response.

The program could be run on one of those little palm top thingys which yuppies play with on the tube. Or for the hoy palloy, a gameboy version.

A printout option would mean that the decision of the calculator could be used in court as evidence to show that you acted reasonably. Never worry about being sued again!

Retails at only £99.99, batteries not included.

 

[Idaten]

Right Bod, right lol.


For me, self-defense is a situation where one can be severly injured, and therefore one should use the any force neccassary to protect yourself.

If their knee cap is shattered, the elbow snapped etc, so be it. I must protect my life. It is not my fault that someone came at me with a knife or a gang of thugs decided to try to mug me.

 

[Shinzu]

in a situation i will be thinking of defending myself to the best of my abilitiy. if i happen to break something along the way then so be it.

i am not going to take into consideration someone elses feelings when he is trying to do me bodily harm.