Junior Black Belts

[Kwiter]

My girls train and get Belt Ranks but under I think 13 they have a white stripe in the center. The material doesn't seem the same either, They are training in American Kenpo but I see some techniques for Yellow belt they haven't been taught as yet and some strikes substituted from them such as Delayed Sword.

I'm ASSUMING this is because they are juniors tho i'll be asking their Sensei about it.

 

[stone_dragone]

The dojo in Tennessee that I train with has three different levels of black belt, separate from degrees. They use Junior, Youth and Adult black belt. Junior black belts are denoted by a blue stripe per degree, yellow for youth/teen and red for adult. Each level has degrees, but junior degrees disappear once they enter the youth ranks and then the youth ranks disappear once they test for their adult shodan.

In the ATA, there are no youth ranks. A student that has met the standards is promoted. Promotions are halted after 3rd degree, however, since one needs to be a certified instructor to be promoted to 4th and, I'm not sure on this one, there are certain age requirements after third as well.

Personnally, I don't agree with junior black belts, youth black belts or anything of the sort, but that's just me. I base that on my own personal experience and expectations. I firmly believe that recieving a black belt is just as much subjective and maturity based as it is objective and standards based. While each instructor has their own picture of what a black belt should be and shouldn't be, I stick to what I've said before...A black belt is nothing more or less than the instructor's reputation.

My two bits...

 

[DuneViking]

Greetings,

Traditionally, our GM has refrained from accepting students under 14 in the past. To obtain 1st Dan is 3-3.5 years, so junior BB or Pooms were not a question.

Recently we have been accepting younger students. We have developed a seperate ranking system for those (4-9) that encompases most of the requirements for the first adult rank test-9th gup. Testing time is variable and depends not only upon techniques, but attitude and developing maturity.

If one progresses from junior 5th gup (new student or 15th gup) thru junior 1st gup (11th gup adult) they may be admitted to an adult class as a 10th gup, but allowed to continue to wear their junior belt. They are out ranked by any adult until they pass their first adult test (9th gup).

Continuing progress is logically tied to thier maturity development as well as techniques. The minimum class time requirements apply only so long as the student shows appropriate maturity development, and time is no guarantee of testing recommendation, whether junior , teen or adult.

In developing this system, we have had one exception. 2 of our students had a grandmother and grandfather dying of cancer, wishing she could see them test for their BB. We had 3 students that started together in the same cohort, and after much thought and contemplation, we ran the idea of allowing them the OPPORTUNITY to accellerate their training past our GM. Their ages were 9,14 and 14 .

We developed a contract stipulating what was expected of them and included strict ethical and maturity codes as well as training with the GM class and many extra classes. All students were of exceptional ability to start. They were about a year into their training when this issue came up. Any breach of the contract would have cancelled the opportunity and I told them personally, we were expecting them to act like adults and that it would be extremely difficult and it was. The hardest part was teaching them from the head up. They are kids.

They had some issues at times thinking others were getting preferential treatment, comming close to rebellion. We explained to all of them together what was at stake and they could not afford to act that way if they wanted to succeed. Amazingly, they began to slowly change their attitudes, one was so exceptional, we had almost no maturity issues at all. We kept the pressure on and they became tempered and matured quite well. They are still kids, but very mature and capable. They surpassed requirements in forms and even the 10 yr old (who looks about 5-7) can break 2 bricks (yes, with spacers) with an axe kick, the older boys can do 6 (with spacers) with a palm heel. Their grandfather was able to attend, but sadly, their grandmother had crossed over about 1 month before they tested, so her photos were placed on the testing board table. We do not plan on doing this again. :erg:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll chime in late on this thread and say i have seen a few young black belts ( 12-14 years old). I have seen way more in younger ages that may have worn th belt but lacked something
I personaly do not belive in the JR. ranking of Black belts. But then my stanfdards and my thinking on what i demand of a person to be a black belt in my system differ from what many require in their system.
If the person is not responsible and if i cant trust that person to stand behind me with a loaded weapon they will never be a black belt in my system it and that will disallow all childeren. I think a BB must have mental as well as physical strength and have the ability to think on their feet.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

Just another example of bullshido. Get use to it, because it is going to get worse.

 

[tshadowchaser]

get more sokes get more jr BB so they can be 5th dan at 15.
yes it keeps the money flowing in because mom and dad can say "oh my little jonny/jenny is a black belt . now next week they will learn to tie their shoes"

 

[Jimi]

I can easily accept that there are child athletes who can earn the rank of Junior Black Belt, which is traditionaly not the average case. Here in the states, once a parent sees that another exceptional child has reached as far as Black Belt rank, they immediately want their child to be able to acheive that rank as well. Sorry mom and dad, but little bobby is not as special as adam, is not something a paying parent wants to hear. I am not saying that all children are not worthy of such rank, just not every child. Some schools do use a junior rank as a way to keep paying families in the school a little longer. Many children reach junior black belt and see that to retain a black belt they will have to continue to train and test again at an older age, so they quit and go on to soccer, football, basketball etc...Some children take the junior black belt and leave, saying at an older age, I used to be a black belt. I do not beleive that a large percent of those children gaining junior black belts stick with it. I've seen it. I do not disagree that a child can be worthy of it, just as long as the rank is not given to keep little power rangers happy.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Giving a child a black belt, is like giving a child the rank of sergeant in the military.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Giving a child a black belt, is like giving a child the rank of sergeant in the military.

I disagree. There are many junior ROTC programs that award CADET ranks, including sergeant, to young students who meet the requirements. A JUNIOR Black Belt, to me at least, is a CADET rank and students shouldn't be denigrated, IMO, for holding it. The only problem, IMO, that arises is if the INSTRUCTOR doesn't make clear that it is a junior grade and that the child is not equal in size, strength, experience, or skill to an adult Dan. Barring possible issues of false confidence, which are instructor and parental issues, I see no problem with it - even if I would not award such grades myself. I'd prefer folks spent less time worrying about what others do.

 

[Blindside]

We have one set of requirements for black, if a child can meet them great, we'll test them when they are ready. As of now, with our school being in continuous operation for 32 years, the youngest student to be tested for black was 16, with about 11 years of time in.

Lamont

(Actually, there is one requirement that our Jr. blacks can't do and that is the full contact fighting on the test, they do that when they reach 18.)

 

[bushidomartialarts]

If the person is not responsible and if i cant trust that person to stand behind me with a loaded weapon they will never be a black belt in my system it and that will disallow all childeren. I think a BB must have mental as well as physical strength and have the ability to think on their feet.

that's an interesting standard. not sure i agree with it but i like the sentiment.

under that yardstick, there are 10 year olds in my system i'd give a BB to sooner than most adults i know. not that they know how to use a firearm, but in principal...

kids are starting younger and younger in the martial arts. (i had someone call and ask if we'd start their 2 year old...). some stay, and the teenagers i know who grew up inside the dojo are remarkable people. i'd trust their intent farther than almost all adults i know, and i'd trust their ability farther than most.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

interesting side question here, one we're dealing with in my school and was touched on in an earlier post.

i have no problem with a 12 year old BB (senior rank BB) who has the size, maturity, ability and time in rank. black belt only means that you know enough to begin learning.

my problem is with the resulting math. most traditions i'm aware of give time in rank requirements of waiting a number of years equal to either your current dan or your coming dan (i.e. wait one or two years for 2nd dan, then 2 or 3 years for 5th).

that means, if the student was dedicated and trained hard, a 12 year old BB would be eligible for 2nd dan at 14, 3rd dan at 17, 4th dan at 21 and 5th dan at 26.

while i have no trouble with the initial BB rank, something in me rebels at a 5th dan under the age of 30.

maybe i'm just jealous, but somewhere along the lines i believe there's life experience and wisdom in the equation.

 

[Gemini]

maybe i'm just jealous, but somewhere along the lines i believe there's life experience and wisdom in the equation.

In the case of the WTF, that's exactly why there are both pooms (juniors BB) and minimum time requirements involved between all levels. Keep in mind, just because you're talking about minimum requirements, doesn't mean the practitioner will be promoted. I've only known a few that have actually acheived that rank by that age and I'll be the first to say I was in awe of what they could do. I would even go as far as to say that it's rare to find someone unqulaified at that rank. Usually, they've either quit or created their own system, naming themselves 20 dan.

 

[evenflow1121]

I dont knock people for doing so, but I personally would never do. A shodan is a shodan, Jr. BB is not really a rank in my opinion just a way to fill in a gap, you re somewhere between your last colored belt and your bb but somehow you do not meet the requirements for shodan, thus, you should not wear a bb. But thats just me.