Junior Black Belts

[still learning]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Every school has a right to promote anyone and at any age...there choice. No right or wrong here!

A five year old Black belt...can he teach the class what he knows?

We have junior BB's(sixth levels) but have train for 5-10 years and cannot be promote to Adult black belt till at least 16 years old. if they started as peewees,and juniors...than they have more requirments before reaching an Adult BB.

It is like giving a 5 year old,a licence to fix cars, sell real estate,drive a car,teach martial arts....Black belt is also about maturity ....just my thoughts on this........Aloha

 

[Gemini]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh?

 

[mantis]

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh?

yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!

 

[Gemini]

yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!

LOL! You're in good company!

 

[terryl965]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Every school has a right to promote anyone and at any age...there choice. No right or wrong here!

A five year old Black belt...can he teach the class what he knows?

We have junior BB's(sixth levels) but have train for 5-10 years and cannot be promote to Adult black belt till at least 16 years old. if they started as peewees,and juniors...than they have more requirments before reaching an Adult BB.

It is like giving a 5 year old,a licence to fix cars, sell real estate,drive a car,teach martial arts....Black belt is also about maturity ....just my thoughts on this........Aloha

Sorry to dis-agree my son is 12 and is a 2nd poom kukkiwon certified and he can train the class, even the adults that know him give him respect for his knowledge of TKD. I love this kind of B.S. if a nine year old can go to college and get a degree from a major university he is a prodigy but if a 12 has a BB it is ******** what a set of double standers some of you have.

By the way I'm not trying to start that argoment again but we as a society has to ubderstand what is involved.
He trains 2-3 everyday plus goes to school has a straight a average is on the honor roll, is the most polite young man I personnaly know but yet he can't train a class. i hope at the Meet and greet some of you are there to see his attitude and then judge.
Terry

 

[Gemini]

Sorry to dis-agree my son is 12 and is a 2nd poom kukkiwon certified and he can train the class, even the adults that know him give him respect for his knowledge of TKD. I love this kind of B.S. if a nine year old can go to college and get a degree from a major university he is a prodigy but if a 12 has a BB it is ******** what a set of double standers some of you have.

By the way I'm not trying to start that argoment again but we as a society has to ubderstand what is involved.
He trains 2-3 everyday plus goes to school has a straight a average is on the honor roll, is the most polite young man I personnaly know but yet he can't train a class. i hope at the Meet and greet some of you are there to see his attitude and then judge.
Terry

Well, you and I are pretty much on the same side of the fence on this one, but I do have to address one point. It goes a little past the junior BB debate, but does directly relate.

As my Sabumnim explained it to me, the whole reason the Kukkiwon devised the junior BB program was to allow kids that have the capability to advance. We're good so far. We both have 3 sons that have done just that. BUT...there is a limitation to that. They cannot become Masters at the junior level. Why? It's not because they're not physically capable, nor that they don't know the material. It's because as a general rule (your situation as others may be different) but again, as a GENERAL rule, adults will not follow child leaders. A class here and there, maybe, but "Hey, here's your new instructor from now on". Nope Ain't gonna happen. History taught them this doesn't work. The lesson made perfect sense to me because when I started, my instructor (being much younger then) looked like a teenager. My first comment (being an ignorant newbie) was "I'm not training under him! He's just a kid!". I never said it wasn't foolish, but it is reality.

As far as still learning's statement. Personally I don't agree with it, but to reference my comment above, I think the response from the board as a whole shows how subjective the answer is.

 

[still learning]

Hello, We have junior black belts, my son is one of them. There is requirements to be an Adult black belts in our school system.

Juniors BB takes longer for promotion to an Adult BB's. There belts have a white strip in the middle. (for brown and black junior's level).

Should 5-8 years olds be Black belts? ...even at junior level? ....not sure about this....I come from old school traditions.....answer is NO. ...today..who cares....there is NO standards for being a Black belt.

If fact...look around....everyone can be one and it does not take much to earn or received a Black Belt. It has loss it meaning in todays market.

There are some schools....it means alot...others just show up and you can get one..... Aloha

 

[Brandon Fisher]

The youngest I would consider promoting a kid to black belt is 12 and that would be a junior rank. Adult black belts must be no younger then 15 in my system and thats if they are exceptionally good at what they do and how their maturity is.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!

every time i think i've got it figured out, something comes along that makes me go 'hey, wait...'

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Should 5-8 years olds be Black belts? ...even at junior level? ....not sure about this....I come from old school traditions.....answer is NO.

dunno about this one. now in theory our youngest students start at age six. if it takes a minimum of three years (usually 4 - 5 if they start that young), then they'd have to be 9 or 10 just because of how time works.

on the other hand, if some 7 year old had started at four, did the work, showed great talent, knew the material back and forth, and showed a maturity for age equal or to what we'd expect of a teen or adult, then why not?

a part of me winces at the idea, and another part winces at making him wait 9 more years for senior black, but i can't think of many rational arguments to prevent it.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Jason,
Making them wait is my issue also. I have a hard time with both aspects of it.

 

[MartialIntent]

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh?

Good point!

I like the idea personally. I don't automatically respect a child or junior just because they hold BB status - any more in fact than I'd automatically respect an adult BB. Respect is a thing that naturally must be earned. But genuine attempts at hard work and diligence in young people should be encouraged and not belittled by sour old guys and gals like us, lamenting for the day when kids were seen and not heard. For me, I respect such commitment and drive in kids and young people and I think it should command respect from us to them not necessarily as we respect other adults but we should surely respect them as young people trying their hardest to show the world they really have strong character.

Does it de-value my BB status as an adult? Why would it? My BB status and the person I am as the holder, is not dependent upon anyone else. I would not wish to be graded relative to another BB but on my own merit as measured against the standard of my art. Likewise, if I achieve the standard, I think I rightfully should receive the award. I'd think it unfair and hypocritical if there was a decree saying I couldn't be awarded a BB because I was too short or a girl or needed contact lenses... I'm trivializing - fair enough, but just to make the point that any discrimination implies hypocrisy.

Regarding junior BBs, I think the old McDojo argument is perpetually wheeled out as a strong argument when really it is little more than a thin veil over a little resentment and maybe a litte insecurity in our own achievements and ability.

Respects!

 

[Ross]

Good point!

I like the idea personally. I don't automatically respect a child or junior just because they hold BB status - any more in fact than I'd automatically respect an adult BB. Respect is a thing that naturally must be earned. But genuine attempts at hard work and diligence in young people should be encouraged and not belittled by sour old guys and gals like us, lamenting for the day when kids were seen and not heard. For me, I respect such commitment and drive in kids and young people and I think it should command respect from us to them not necessarily as we respect other adults but we should surely respect them as young people trying their hardest to show the world they really have strong character.

Does it de-value my BB status as an adult? Why would it? My BB status and the person I am as the holder, is not dependent upon anyone else. I would not wish to be graded relative to another BB but on my own merit as measured against the standard of my art. Likewise, if I achieve the standard, I think I rightfully should receive the award. I'd think it unfair and hypocritical if there was a decree saying I couldn't be awarded a BB because I was too short or a girl or needed contact lenses... I'm trivializing - fair enough, but just to make the point that any discrimination implies hypocrisy.

Regarding junior BBs, I think the old McDojo argument is perpetually wheeled out as a strong argument when really it is little more than a thin veil over a little resentment and maybe a litte insecurity in our own achievements and ability.

Respects!

Thanks for your imput. I don't think I'd go as far as to say that I have any resentment or insecurity about my own grade level - I think I see what you mean but in my case this dosen't really apply.

I just saw this young child and wondered what other people thought about the whole issue as I havent really heard their views.

Question: so in the old, traditional martial arts originating out of China and Japan, how did they grade? They had children starting with them but did they grade at a different pace? Or something else? I'm speaking blind here as I genuinely don't know, but if anyone can shed some light I'd appreciate it.

Thanks to everyone for their toughts.

 

[green meanie]

Question: so in the old, traditional martial arts originating out of China and Japan, how did they grade? They had children starting with them but did they grade at a different pace? Or something else? I'm speaking blind here as I genuinely don't know, but if anyone can shed some light I'd appreciate it.

The ranking system as we know it is a relatively new thing. There was no such thing as a 'black belt' in anything until Kano created a ranking system for his Judo. The other arts started to follow his lead soon after.

 

[Matsubayashi-ryu Sensei]

You said that you use two seperate belt systems for juniors and adults. What do you do when they transition into the adult class? What rank do they start out at then?

It depends on the individual, I've had them test in any where from gokyu (first adult rank) to ikkyu (senior brown belt) ... but never EVER will one test directly for black belt. In a discussion with my instructor last month, we both came to the conclusion that we're going to limit the juniors coming into the system to nikyu (brown belt) ... there seems to be a distinct trend of juniors not making the transition and dropping out before black belt. So we're both lengthening the time in the adult system so they can better adjust to the demands of the adult system.

Windy and verbose, but I hope it helps.

 

[terryl965]

Well, you and I are pretty much on the same side of the fence on this one, but I do have to address one point. It goes a little past the junior BB debate, but does directly relate.

As my Sabumnim explained it to me, the whole reason the Kukkiwon devised the junior BB program was to allow kids that have the capability to advance. We're good so far. We both have 3 sons that have done just that. BUT...there is a limitation to that. They cannot become Masters at the junior level. Why? It's not because they're not physically capable, nor that they don't know the material. It's because as a general rule (your situation as others may be different) but again, as a GENERAL rule, adults will not follow child leaders. A class here and there, maybe, but "Hey, here's your new instructor from now on". Nope Ain't gonna happen. History taught them this doesn't work. The lesson made perfect sense to me because when I started, my instructor (being much younger then) looked like a teenager. My first comment (being an ignorant newbie) was "I'm not training under him! He's just a kid!". I never said it wasn't foolish, but it is reality.

As far as still learning's statement. Personally I don't agree with it, but to reference my comment above, I think the response from the board as a whole shows how subjective the answer is.

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29

Terry

 

[Gemini]

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29

Terry

29! Man, that's brutal! Mean ol' dad...:wink2:

 

[MJS]

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29

Terry

This is where the difference is people comes into play though. If your son is 12 and a 2nd, and the Kukkiwon sets a 30yr of age minimum, if I'm reading this right, then your son has to wait 18yrs.?

I'd have to say that your son would be the exception to the rule, as I certainly can't see many other people, children and parents, waiting that long. I'd imagine they'd probably quit the school and go to another that would promote their child w/o having to wait.

Mike

 

[Gemini]

I'd have to say that your son would be the exception to the rule, as I certainly can't see many other people, children and parents, waiting that long. I'd imagine they'd probably quit the school and go to another that would promote their child w/o having to wait.

Mike

It's not, it's 18.

 

[MJS]

It's not, it's 18.

See what happens when you don't read the post thoroughly before replying!!:whip:

Thanks for the clarification!:supcool:

Mike