Junior Black Belts

[Ross]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

 

[MJS]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

Many schools have an age requirement for Black Belt level, such as 16. Now, considering many schools start enrolling students as young as 4, it is possible for someone to be under that min. age. Now, rather than have someone wait at Brown Belt for "X" number of years, possibly lose interest, the Jr. BB is awarded. While they are at this level, they're still learning material. Something to signify progression such as stars, can be placed on the belt. When the min. age for BB is reached, they test for it.

Speaking for myself, I've always had mixed views on people starting at a young age. I've taught for many years, so I've had the chance to see many different people. Some young kids really do show an interest, and most importantly, the parents show support. Then there are some, where it seems like its more of a babysitting class. The parents rarely walk thru the door, rarely watch their kids progression, the kids fool around and then the parents wonder why the child is not progressing. Again, I'm not saying that its bad for a 4yo to start training, but IMO, its not for everyone.

Many times, when people see a young child with a full BB, the McDojo light usually goes off in their head. The Jr. BB is a way to still keep the child motivated but at the same time, giving them time to mature.

Just my .02.

Mike

 

[Matsubayashi-ryu Sensei]

For my part, the way I look at it is that the kid's "junior's" program is completely separate from the adult system ... so yes, there is a 'junior black belt', but said JBB is out-ranked by any adult student. Also, I use two separate belt systems for the juniors and adults, as well as distinct classes where they don't mix (unlike many schools I've visited where there are 10 year olds and 30 year olds in the same class).

My humble 2 cents

 

[green meanie]

I personally don't care for the idea of a the junior / kiddie black belt. I feel like there's some things in this world that you either are or you're not and, for me, black belt is one of them. But that's just me. I don't see anything wrong or fraudulent about another school or system opting to handle this situation differently than I do.

 

[terryl965]

Well this horse has beaten to death, but here goes my Art is TKD and junior BB are called Pooms under the age of 15 and our governing body in Soul Korea Issue all poom ranks. It is a motivatioal tool to keep them involved until they reach that magical number. MY sons are pooms and no it did not take them twoo year, it was more like 8-9 years to get there, since I'm the head instructor I made sure they where able to act like BB before they where able to get my middle son stayed a red belt for over two years, for the simple fact he was not able to stay focus enough for me.

As you can see I believe the program has flaaws but it does have it porpuse also.
Terry

 

[green meanie]

Well this horse has beaten to death...

Of course. It's an old debate but everytime we gain new members it becomes a 'new' question again.

 

[Gemini]

I actually just answered this on another thread, so instead of retyping it, I'll just paste it from there.

I want to address the issue about the kids in the art. Most see it as a sign of weakness or "McDojo" ness if you will. I don't. I have 3 boys that are (as of last Saturday) all black belts. I've very proud of them and their achievements. The reason I defend it isn't because what devastating fighters they are, they're not. They're kids. But they will grow up. My youngest wasn't allowed into the dojang until he was almost 5. But he's been practicing since he could stand up. Watching his brothers from the lobby in his diaper with his white belt on. It's all he knows and it is and has always been a part of his life. They're at the beginning of what I hope will be a very long road.

My instructor started in Korea when he was 5. He was also a BB at 7. Devastaing? Of couse not. He was, in his own words, lazy and a real PITA to deal with. But it was simply his beginning. Not the age where judgment should be passed on him. Now he's 6'2" and a 6th degree master who's abilities far exceed anyone I've ever met, including other masters.

My point is, it's a long road. So the next time you pass that school, don't be too critical of those that are just starting out and what they can or cannot do. Some will go on, most will not. But none of us know which those will be. Only time will tell.

Regards,

 

[AceHBK]

For my part, the way I look at it is that the kid's "junior's" program is completely separate from the adult system ... so yes, there is a 'junior black belt', but said JBB is out-ranked by any adult student. Also, I use two separate belt systems for the juniors and adults, as well as distinct classes where they don't mix (unlike many schools I've visited where there are 10 year olds and 30 year olds in the same class).

My humble 2 cents

You said that you use two seperate belt systems for juniors and adults. What do you do when they transition into the adult class? What rank do they start out at then?

 

[mantis]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

if the kid worked hard to get it i think the kid should have it even if he's 3 years old. Yes, it doesnt mean much to have a black belt when your 5 to you, but it does mean a lot to the kid who worked hard for it.

if you are talking about "giving out" black belts to kids who have no idea what they are doing yet, yeah i object that. that's cheating!

 

[fightingfat]

I think it devalues the meaning of a black belt and also the public perception and deludes the practioner as to what he is/ should be capable of.

 

[mantis]

I think it devalues the meaning of a black belt and also the public perception and deludes the practioner as to what he is/ should be capable of.

why do you think so though?
i have seen little black belts who can fight as taught, and can do their forms properly. yes, they do have a size restriction but that doesnt mean they're no good and they dont deserve what they have been working hard to achieve.

on the other hand i have seen advanced belts who cant do a single technique

 

[Ross]

Sorry if this has been covered before in previous threads, but I hadnt seen one myself hence the question.

We too have junior black belts who, when they reach a mature enough age, then start in the senior class at yellow grade (although they retain their black belt). I agree that it is a motivational tool, but equally it is a business tool for targeting the parents.

Ok, another variation - in our comercialised world does it not help to promote the activity of belt chasing within a school? Then we are right back to a McDojo situation again.

Please note that I am only talking about young children who train.

 

[bobster_ice]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

I have nothing wrong with it, well at the karate dojo I go too dont let you have a black belt until your ready, I waited since I was four to be a black belt and when I got it I loved it, all the other students, even the older ones, respected me for getting it. I was the yougest boy with a black belt at my dojo

 

[beau_safken]

BB's are all relative anyway. Doesn't matter about all the years, age or whatever. Its all about skill and commitment.

If some instructors have requirements on age, so be it.
If some instructors have requirements on pretty much whatever, so be it.

Just because you have a belt doesn't mean it matters to the next person, its all relative.

 

[bobster_ice]

BB's are all relative anyway. Doesn't matter about all the years, age or whatever. Its all about skill and commitment.

If some instructors have requirements on age, so be it.
If some instructors have requirements on pretty much whatever, so be it.

Just because you have a belt doesn't mean it matters to the next person, its all relative.

Hmmm...Good point.

 

[phlaw]

As long as they differ from adults I have no problem with it.

I know in my school a Junior student will never outrank an adult, so a junior blackbelt is technically lower than an adult orange belt.

 

[fightingfat]

why do you think so though?

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?

 

[mantis]

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?

well i guess this goes back to the other thread about the 2 schools: whether you have to only know your forms to earn a black belt, or you have to know how to fight to earn it.
I find that most people think black belt is the top level of the art, like if you have BB then you must really good. but i think black belt is the first level where "you kind of know what's going on"

 

[green meanie]

why do you think so though?
i have seen little black belts who can fight as taught, and can do their forms properly. yes, they do have a size restriction but that doesnt mean they're no good and they dont deserve what they have been working hard to achieve.

The reason I don't agree with it -and again this isn't finding fault with schools / systems that condone it, this is why it doesn't happen in my school / system -I look at black belt as an instructor rank. And because I can't imagine trusting a 7 - 10 year old with that kind of responsibility, I can't see them in a black belt. Not finding fault with how anybody else is doing this, that's just how we do things.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?

which has a lot to do with why we have junior black belts in my school.

a black belt represents years (3-5 on average these days) of hard training and dedication. it represents personal growth and development as a result of the sweat.

if a 7 year old puts in the time and the work, why would somebody deny her the rewards when the time comes?

we have junior black rank, then senior black followed by 2nd dan, etc. since we don't have a lot of ego running around our school, nobody's asked if junior black outranks senior brown. which is good 'cos i haven't figured that out myownself.

we do have an age limitation of 15-16 for senior black, but i'm already beginning to question that.