Journey to a new style...

[_Simon_]

Hey don't know if anyone has seen this movie, but it reminds me of this scene in the movie Whiplash.

Obviously, obviously NOT to this extreme, but the teaching style matters...

 

[_Simon_]

Speaking of weapons...

Years ago I used to compete regularly at the annual UC Berkeley Chinese Martial Arts tournament, and a couple more in the San Francisco Bay Area. This is a forms competition tournament, with the bulk of competitors in the Modern Wushu categories, but also with categories for Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, which is where I would compete.

Even in the Traditional formats, most of the folks were using cheap, light-weight Modern Wushu weapon props, and not real weapons. But not me. I would come in with my dao that had a thick blade like a meat cleaver, and my staff, thick stiff wax wood, not the thin whippy stuff.

We had to show the weapon to the judges before our demonstration, while telling them what form we would do. I handed over my dao, and told them my form. One judge said “you are doing Fei Hok Dao (Flying Crane Broadsword) with THIS dao? I know that form. I want to see this...”

Later, I handed over my staff for inspection. Another judge said, “you have some NICE weapons...”

The judges for the traditional format were usually the same group of fellows each year, well respected Sifu from the Chinese Martial Arts community, trained under famous Sifu like Wong, Jack Man and Quentin Fong (whose student I was later able to become). They would remember me from year-to-year and they definitely respected the weaponry. I was able to score as “Overall Champion” for the traditional competitions, a couple of times.

Anyways, I know what you mean when you talk about the weapons. And the people who know better, they do respect quality over fluff. But of course, not everybody knows better.

Thats awesome, great illustration of quality over "flashy-wow-factor" too

 

[_Simon_]

That being said, perhaps it's more appropriate for me to say it's maybe not the best approach for me. I can't really say it's bad/wrong, but maybe just not suited for me. It may be what some people are after, I don't think it's for me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

..... okay, more definitely came to light in last night's class. I truly did not enjoy the class, and was a bit taken aback.

@Monkey Turned Wolf and @WaterGal your observations about the incessant corrections and also grade level expectations were spot on. Last night was next level...

Anyway, started the class, worked on very basic stuff again, tsuki, jodan uke. Had a senior student paired with me to watch my kata. Did Taikyoku kata which I'm well versed in, but they do it quite differently.

So after almost every movement I got corrections, which was fine I just rolled with them, and tried my best to correct them, which I managed to. The reasoning behind why some techniques are done the way they're done is a little weird (jodan uke being done with the arm reeeeally close to the body and face) and I don't necessarily agree, but I went along with it. He was very much modelling that same method of scrutiny as the main instructor.

Then we all spread out and the instructor got the senior grades to one by one perform a kata to demonstrate. Here's where I was absolutely gobsmacked...

A brown belt young girl was up first doing Seiunchin, did the kata which looked pretty good, and straight after he went through the 4 million things she did wrong. She looked rather dejected, and she went through it again but this time he corrected as she went. Every. Little. Thing.

Next up was actually a 1st kyu, who is actually going for his Shodan next week. He actually chose a much lower grade kata Saifa, which I believe is required for 5th kyu. I thought oh this'll be great to watch! I am not joking when I say the instructor stopped him after EVERY move, and saying how wrong it was (sometimes in a bit of a snide fashion), and doing the incredibly, incredibly anal corrections.

If he's going for Shodan next week, and he's getting this much correction on a 5th kyu kata..... how much would that dash his confidence? And why is the kata still not up to scratch I wonder?

All the time on the sideline I observed very carefully, not only the instructor, but I looked at the student's faces, and oh man they just looked so dejected and dispirited... it was really sad. Also DURING the kata you could see them constantly darting their eyes towards the instructor, almost making sure they were impressing him and getting approval. It was a really bizarre scene, and I scanned the other students watching to see their reaction but they're probably just so used to it and think it's common.

It's interesting that that approach is believed to help students most, whereas I can't possibly see how you could learn in that environment. Not only the absolute overload of information, absolute beyond perfectionism (which ultimately I feel is missing the point in terms of understanding and applying the principles behind movements rather than getting that 2° angle change), and also the student's doubt and confidence level... I'm by no means a fan of excessive praise, but come on...

I even made a point afterwards to go up to some of them and say their kata was awesome which I really did feel, and they all dipped their heads shaking it saying "nah nah nah it wasn't".

AGAIN at the end of the class, he then mentioned to the class that he's had black belts come and say he's too fussy with kata. And he said that's how they were with him in Japan, and he said that to them, and they said yes we are, if people think they're too fussy let them leave, we won't change that.

And even though it teaches the importance of relaxation, I don't see how how you possibly remain relaxed internally with that level of scrutiny. I know that knowing myself, and my excessive perfectionism at times, this can't be healthy for me.

So, could I learn alot being here? Yes, definitely could. Could I see myself enjoying it long term? ..... I just don't think so.

So I'll do the two classes next week but I have a few places in mind that I'll try next year. It's been quite an eye opening journey thus far....

While I'm obviously not happy you weren't able to find a good fit, I'm definitely glad that you realized how this school is early on. Keep on trucking!

 

[Yokozuna514]

That being said, perhaps it's more appropriate for me to say it's maybe not the best approach for me. I can't really say it's bad/wrong, but maybe just not suited for me. It may be what some people are after, I don't think it's for me.

Hey Simon,

Too bad that this place is not working out. From your account, it does seem to be a difficult learning environment. At the end of the day, you want to be pouring your time and energy into something that will make you better but not at the expense of your happiness. The road may be long and winding but you will get to where you want to go if you eventually keep looking. Good luck.

 

[_Simon_]

While I'm obviously not happy you weren't able to find a good fit, I'm definitely glad that you realized how this school is early on. Keep on trucking!

Thanks buddy, and I'm really glad you pointed out those things that seemed off, really appreciate that.

Hey Simon,

Too bad that this place is not working out. From your account, it does seem to be a difficult learning environment. At the end of the day, you want to be pouring your time and energy into something that will make you better but not at the expense of your happiness. The road may be long and winding but you will get to where you want to go if you eventually keep looking. Good luck.

Osu thanks heaps, I know if I take my time and trust my gut it'll be worth it.

Everyone's support has been greatly appreciated so you all know *bows*

 

[_Simon_]

Another rather strange class tonight...

I got there an hour late as I thought class at this other dojo was at 7pm. Jumped into line and they were doing basics, and the main instructor came up and just started chatting to me, for quite awhile actually... I was already late so thought it'd probably be much better for me to train haha, but he just kept going... about rather strange things, like again why they don't spar (I didn't bring it up), saying the blackbelts don't really even wanna spar anyway, there were just too many injuries and you can't train if you're injured.... and also recounting again why he's so fussy and precise as when he went to Japan that's how they trained etc etc.

Tried to pry a little as to how people kept getting injured and he said something like people would poke eyes etc and no control, people can get fingers caught in the others' gis and dislocate them (???) ... I even said well that's probably the best platform to actually train your timing and control... not in a snarky way but just casually said it..

The next bit he said............. I truly, truly had to hold back from either laughing or my jaw hitting the floor.... he said if you train kata and really imagine the bunkai, you don't need to spar. I was stunned..... I just didn't know what to say to that...


Then broke off into little groups and worked on kata. Learned Geki-ha which is fascinating... like an amalgamation of Gekisai katas..

It's a bit bizarre as alot of the guys there I meet keep saying that he's very very precise and fussy, and saying how they get it right here so you know you earn your belts, unlike those bigger clubs that just give them out... Felt like at every opportunity they were trying to validate what they do, and how it's good that they're like that. It's interesting that the idea of being that fussy about small things means you're getting quality... meanwhile you're excessively focusing on that element and there's no conditioning, bagwork, padwork, sparring, or impact of any kind, or anything else that Goju is renowned for.. and calling it 'authentic' because of that... that sort of self-delusion is really unfortunate, and it's all reinforced in the smallness of the club, as they don't have anything to do with other clubs or martial artists (and often it seems are rather disparaging to any other style...).

Feels so dogmatic, and you can see how martial arts can become so politicised and almost like religious fundamentalist... honing in on one certain aspect and disregarding the rest in pure assumption...

I honestly do like the real focus on body structure and biomechanics, and there is a bit I do like here and have learned from, but I'm getting more and more glimpses of the unpleasant side of that.

And I'm just sharing all this not to stylebash or name and shame, but hoping it's of help to others in a similar position and shed a bit of a light as to how some clubs operate, what to look for etc... I hope it's helpful.

Again after training I hadn't really felt like I'd trained (not that every session has to be super physical or always a sweat session, but I've found every time that I hadn't really done much), so I got home at 9:30pm and trained all the Gekisai-related katas I knew twice over.

Gekisai Dai
Gekisai Sho
Gekisai Ichi
Gekisai Ni
Geki-ha

 

[_Simon_]

Didn't end up going to the last class tonight. Ah wellz!

Instead I'm doing the Karate X-mas Bootcamp on the Karate@Home page. 7 online sessions with amazing Shotokan instructors from all over the world, over 4 days, plus I had another one booked I'll squeeze in there too haha.

I did one of these earlier in the year and loved it. It's a nice challenge to set and go through. Exhausted by the end of it, but you learn alot .

Until next year it'll be home training until dojos open up again for the year, of which I have a few ideas. Here's to that!

 

[_Simon_]

Hmm, just discovered that the first Goju style I trialled out was actually Goju Kai! I had no idea, as it doesn't say that in the info, but the lineage I read of is definitely through Yamaguchi Sensei.

It explains a bit actually, especially those 5 different Taikyoku kata they train, and unsure whether the heavy fitness/exercise focus is just a their dojo thing or Goju Kai related...

The most recent one I trialled was definitely more akin to traditional Goju ryu, albeit leaving out alot of traditional elements...

Well, there you go!

 

[_Simon_]

Okay, it is time! After much much deliberation haha, I contacted a Shotokan dojo that sounds really cool, and checking out their class tomorrow, just watching. Super nervous but happy I'm delving back in, a big step for me at the moment believe it or not..

 

[dvcochran]

Okay, it is time! After much much deliberation haha, I contacted a Shotokan dojo that sounds really cool, and checking out their class tomorrow, just watching. Super nervous but happy I'm delving back in, a big step for me at the moment believe it or not..

Best of luck!

 

[_Simon_]

Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.

The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!

Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor

 

[dvcochran]

Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.

The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!

Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor

Keep the spirit. Gotta start somewhere, right?

 

[Yokozuna514]

Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.

The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!

Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor

Good time to look for a new place ! You are bound to find it with that kind of determination.

 

[_Simon_]

Thanks guys, yeah I'm persevering, and determined to not just settle. But a fine line with that, and in not being TOO picky and fixate too much on things I don't necessarily like.

 

[_Simon_]

Finally had my trial class at this place this morning!

I really enjoyed it! I like the instructor, and even though I'd sort of written off Shotokan as a path for me, this definitely brought it back as an option.

We warmed up with a combination, adding on 2x techniques as we went: jab, cross, hook, uppercut, round elbow, rising elbow, front knee, back knee, gyaku tsuki, then we did generic warmup after.

Next we worked on stepping back and gedan barai, but I really love that he emphasised and focused on getting and feeling that compression/expansion within the body! Not many places I've been to focus on that, so we did a little exercise where we stand and push arms out, expaaand... and bring all in rapidly and compress.

I really geek out over this stuff haha, all the developing a body intelligence and feeling of connection. And he admits he's a bit of a karate nerd haha (not all instructors are as crazy about it, even though they may teach it ).

Worked on choku tsuki: focusing on hip launching then snapping back (aka vibration), then on hikite.

Did katas: Heian nidan, Heian sandan, Heian yondan. They seem to work a bit on kata bunkai and application too, which I'm not too fussed about, but can be rare for some Shotokan places.

Also transitioning from kiba dachi (horse riding stance) to kokutsu dachi (back stance). I really appreciated that he said that it's okay to have toes facing a bit out in kiba dachi, he doesn't seem a really rigid sort, and said it's probably better for you to have your toes out a little in that stance. My feet do not like the facing forwards so I was relieved. Some places are very rigid with certain techniques/stances.

After class he was more than happy to chat and I love hearing about people's training history, gradings etc. I asked him about the sparring that they do, and they focus on two types, so they start with teaching point sparring for beginners (to basically teach control, movement, distance, technique etc), then progress to what he calls dojo sparring, which is a bit harder, bit more contact, but always respectful and never excessive.

I quite like that approach, even though they are different styles, they each teach something valuable. They do do tournaments as well, but only for those interested.

One of my only concerns is the lack of adults in class. There was one 40 year old lady, a younger maybe 16 year old, the black belt was maybe 17/18, and also had two younger kids in class. I never was a fan of training kids and adults together.. They do have a separate kids class before the adults, but these ones stuck around. I just would like adults to train and spar with etc, and it can change the dynamics of a class when the kids are stuffing around and the instructor has to work with and have a word to them etc. But I don't feel he had to oversimplify certain aspects to us because of the kids which is good, still taught that compression/expansion stuff, but didn't expect the kids to fully grasp it.

The class during the week is a mixed age class, so am a little uncertain, but we'll see.

Will keep this place in mind as I explore further

 

[mrt2]

Finally had my trial class at this place this morning!

I really enjoyed it! I like the instructor, and even though I'd sort of written off Shotokan as a path for me, this definitely brought it back as an option.

We warmed up with a combination, adding on 2x techniques as we went: jab, cross, hook, uppercut, round elbow, rising elbow, front knee, back knee, gyaku tsuki, then we did generic warmup after.

Next we worked on stepping back and gedan barai, but I really love that he emphasised and focused on getting and feeling that compression/expansion within the body! Not many places I've been to focus on that, so we did a little exercise where we stand and push arms out, expaaand... and bring all in rapidly and compress.

I really geek out over this stuff haha, all the developing a body intelligence and feeling of connection. And he admits he's a bit of a karate nerd haha (not all instructors are as crazy about it, even though they may teach it ).

Worked on choku tsuki: focusing on hip launching then snapping back (aka vibration), then on hikite.

Did katas: Heian nidan, Heian sandan, Heian yondan. They seem to work a bit on kata bunkai and application too, which I'm not too fussed about, but can be rare for some Shotokan places.

Also transitioning from kiba dachi (horse riding stance) to kokutsu dachi (back stance). I really appreciated that he said that it's okay to have toes facing a bit out in kiba dachi, he doesn't seem a really rigid sort, and said it's probably better for you to have your toes out a little in that stance. My feet do not like the facing forwards so I was relieved. Some places are very rigid with certain techniques/stances.

After class he was more than happy to chat and I love hearing about people's training history, gradings etc. I asked him about the sparring that they do, and they focus on two types, so they start with teaching point sparring for beginners (to basically teach control, movement, distance, technique etc), then progress to what he calls dojo sparring, which is a bit harder, bit more contact, but always respectful and never excessive.

I quite like that approach, even though they are different styles, they each teach something valuable. They do do tournaments as well, but only for those interested.

One of my only concerns is the lack of adults in class. There was one 40 year old lady, a younger maybe 16 year old, the black belt was maybe 17/18, and also had two younger kids in class. I never was a fan of training kids and adults together.. They do have a separate kids class before the adults, but these ones stuck around. I just would like adults to train and spar with etc, and it can change the dynamics of a class when the kids are stuffing around and the instructor has to work with and have a word to them etc. But I don't feel he had to oversimplify certain aspects to us because of the kids which is good, still taught that compression/expansion stuff, but didn't expect the kids to fully grasp it.

The class during the week is a mixed age class, so am a little uncertain, but we'll see.

Will keep this place in mind as I explore further

I completely agree with this. When I first trained martial arts in high school, there was a pretty strict rule about kids younger than 15 training with adults. I managed to slip in as a big 14 year old, but there were absolutely no children. These days, because there so many children who train martial arts, they have to allow child black belts to mix in with the adults. Frankly, I don't love it.

 

[_Simon_]

Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience.

Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill..

Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss.

Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly.

It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..

In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.

 

[dvcochran]

Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience.

Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill..

Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss.

Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly.

It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..

In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.

Yeah, I would not be down with that either.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience.

Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill..

Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss.

Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly.

It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..

In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.

That's too bad, Simon. Having walked into a few different places over the years, MA classes vary quite a bit and take on the personality of the instructor. Hopefully the next class will give you a better idea of what the school is really like.