Joo Bang Lee

[IcemanSK]

I read some things in threads that bring into question some of the things that he's said &/or done. I'd heard the name, but really didn't know who he was until I went on wikipedia.

What were the claims that bothered people? His instructor? The having someone break a brick over his forehead? I don't mean to be sarcastic. I don't have a thought about him one way or another. I did think that having someone break a brick over your forehead was incredibly strange.

Can someone enlighten me, please?

 

[shesulsa]

I glanced at Wikipedia ... could you point to something more specific??? And are you talking about breaking a brick over his own head or someone else's??

 

[IcemanSK]

I glanced at Wikipedia ... could you point to something more specific??? And are you talking about breaking a brick over his own head or someone else's??

In a few threads in the TKD area, I'd seen references to his history as being questioned. In the one video from 1980 from youtube, someone broke a brick over Dr. Lee's forehead while he was in a mediative state.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nobody questions his skills just business practices and the history of Hwa Rang Do. There is no doubt that he has skill though. Personally to me as I am not involved and I just do not care. If he was in the area and teaching I would check him out.

 

[terryl965]

I am with Brian here if he was in my aerea I would have to go see what he knows. I have no doubt about his skills either.

 

[shesulsa]

Heh.

There's no doubt as to his skill - never was. I don't know why anyone would be upset about someone breaking a brick over his head - it's *his head* after all. Probably because it's not often done and is likely seen as a trick. Having seen videos of what Lee could do to control his body, I would not want to argue the point.

The *real* history behind HRD has been the subject of contention for many, even his very own students, a couple of which you can read on this board. Run a search, you'll find it. I always point people to hwarangdo.com, hwarang.net, hwarang.org and dsystem.com, trying to point to both sides in the interest of fairness. There still seems to be the argument as to whether or not Lee Joo Bang and Su In-Hyuk trained together and/or with Choi Yong Sul or Kim Moo Hong.

As I've said before, Joo Bang Lee brought together a great system and I just cannot get excited about bashing him or the art; I won't do it.

I hear Tae Joon (Henry) Lee is the one doing most of the teaching now and I truly have no idea if Lee Joo Bang is teaching at all or demonstrating any more.

There was a big uproar in the HRD family which sent some of the black belts off. What exactly happened I can't say because I wasn't there and it truly is none of my business. No one wants those details hashed out publicly, I think, but as I said - if you read all the sites I reference above in depth you can form your very own conclusions.

 

[iron_ox]

There still seems to be the argument as to whether or not Lee Joo Bang and Su In-Hyuk trained together and/or with Choi Yong Sul or Kim Moo Hong.

Hello,

I say this with all due respect to both Lee and Suh, but neither trained with Choi Dojunim in Tague. Both men have documented training under Kim, Moo Woong. In addition, Lee Joo Bang's claim of an 8th Dan from Choi Dojunim proves he was never graded by him...Choi Dojunim only graded men from Tague to 8th Dan - the highest grade he ever awarded to anyone who had left the city was a 7th dan, to those who never lived there, 6th Dan.

Again, no comment on skill, but the claims to grades are suspect at best.

 

[IcemanSK]

I misread some posts as a broad brush against Lee. I was completely ignorant about him & his HRD school. I asked because of the seeming negative thoughts. After reading it again, I saw it as a issue of the way he saw history.

As far as him having a brick broken over his head in the video: I don't think to highly of folks that want to take their heads & smash bricks with them. I REALLY cannot understand why someone would allow another to head them in the head with a brick. I don't get that one.

 

[tellner]

To put it bluntly, the "controversy" is about him lying and lying poorly.

First there were the claims that he learned at a mysterious monastery that mysteriously disappeared. Then there were the claims that he never studied Kuk Sul Won but got everything from these afore-mentioned mysterious monks. Then there were the claims that Hwa Rang Do was two thousand years old and that it was the martial art of the mysterious Hwa Rang Super Warriors.

We already know that he and his brother studied with and broke off from KSW.

The monastery and monks disappeared like dry ice in a white-hot forge. The Hwa Rang, well, I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such, but there's precious little evidence that they ever existed. There's even less that they were a warrior caste rather than, say, a Boy Scout or Young Pioneers equivalent and the thin end of nothing whittled down to a point that their martial arts and specific terminology came down to us unaltered when no other records of their existence have come to light except for a few old ambiguous steles and suchlike. The fact that the supposedly unaltered martial arts of ancient Korean warriors include TKD kicking but no use of the lance or the mounted bow - the foremost weapons of the age - just pegs the BS meter.

Then there was the whole Michael Echanis debacle. Sometime after Echanis' death the Lee brothers admitted that he never really studied with them. They had given him titles in return for publicity and the SOF/mercenary coolth factor. Then they backpedaled. Then they copped to it again.

The Lee martial arts are good stuff. And JBL definitely has skills. But when a person gets caught lying that clumsily that many times it detracts from his stature no matter what his other very real accomplishments.

 

[mystic warrior]

We already know that he and his brother studied with and broke off from KSW.

I am not bashing you, but can you provide a link or a book from where you got this information.
I am just wondering.
thanks

 

[The Last Legionary]

The Hwa Rang, well, I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such,

Well, maybe you would deserve it. That whole "I'm above everyone" attitude I see you bricking all over the site with, Mr. Slimy. You could have said everything else in that post without the shot, but hey, you gots to take your shot at someone on the staff don't you Mr. Slimy? What's the problem? Got told to "play nice"? Had your wrist slapped and it hurt your ego? Awww. Poor Baby. Now I know you'll probably whine to those same mods and do the "he's picking on me mommy, makes the nad man stop it." thing. Well, so you don't go hungry, here's some $2 chedder so you have some cheese with that whine. I'd give you the $25 stuff, but you aint worthy, you arrogant self rightous pompous above us all prick.

Oh, and "Have A Nice Gun Carrying Kenpo Day!".

MWAHAHAHAHA!

 

[shesulsa]

I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such

Tellner if you have a problem with my professionalism - or if anyone else does - I urge you to contact Bob Hubbard, the owner of the site. I assure you he and the rest of the Admin Team will investigate painstakingly and thoroughly and I will fully cooperate.

Looking at your past responses to my posts I have to question whether you actually *read* what I *post* or just respond, but I'll put this out there anyway: When a staff member is conversing in a thread, they may not moderate that same thread. Now, a warning posted in a thread is not the same - that is a moderator action. So ... since I am part of this conversation I cannot issue you any kind of infraction you may or may not have earned. Reputation is a priveledge of all users and I am, as you can see, a user just like you.

Again, feel free to complain to Bob Hubbard - that goes for everyone.

Regards,

G

 

[The Last Legionary]

I am, as you can see, a user just like you.

You mean, you're an arrogant know it all too and just hide behind a flowery image, while Tellner displays his true self in his? Wow. Ninja lady!


Oh yeah, guess I should say this. "Bad moderator. How dare you try to have an opinion of your own and express it. That is just "over moderating". Now shut up, get back in the back and keep feeding me free food!" (That for the dim and slow of wit, was sarcasm.)

 

[shesulsa]

I, like others, will not bash the founder of the system my teacher trained in.

UNlike others, I will not bash the founders or questionable histories of their arts as well.

Part of that "polite and respectful" and whole "goose sauce" thing.

 

[tellner]

No, LL, I'm not not "above everybody". But I have developed a real allergy to fraud and hokum. The martial arts in general, and the Korean and Southeast Asian martial arts in particular - yes, I include what I do - are infamous for deception, BS and out and out dishonesty. It's hard enough to learn things that are true. When you have to spend years separating honest mistakes from truth from self-congratulatory lies it's a lot harder and detracts from all martial arts. If a teacher lies repeatedly it doesn't matter how many belts he has or how many good students he's turned out. He's a liar and can not be trusted. That goes for any teacher in any field. I don't care if the lies are in a good cause like self-respect or nationalism. Once it's acceptable to lie about little things for a good cause it becomes easier to spit up bigger falsehoods for baser reasons. The inevitable result is corruption, debasement and the exploitation of honest students. My martial arts may suck hind teat, but I would rather give them up entirely than misrepresent them for personal gain or to make people more ignorant and unwitting parties to lies. JBL is just one of many in this sad parade. The fact that he has serious skills and developed a really good martial art doesn't make it better.

 

[terryl965]

One man deception is another man reality!!!!​

 

[arnisador]

First there were the claims that he learned at a mysterious monastery that mysteriously disappeared. Then there were the claims that he never studied Kuk Sul Won but got everything from these afore-mentioned mysterious monks. Then there were the claims that Hwa Rang Do was two thousand years old and that it was the martial art of the mysterious Hwa Rang Super Warriors.
[...]
The Hwa Rang[...]there's precious little evidence that they ever existed. There's even less that they were a warrior caste rather than, say, a Boy Scout or Young Pioneers equivalent
[...]
Then there was the whole Michael Echanis debacle.

That pretty much covers it--plus the obsessive copyright protection and other aspects of the PR campaign. I do give somewhat more credence to the existence of a Hwa Rang organization but agree that there's scant evidence of its martial aspects.

Looks like a good art, poorly presented.

can you provide a link or a book from where you got this information.

Reading Joo Bang Lee's own three-volume series is, regrettably, sufficient evidence. The material is internally contradictory as well as conlficting with established hiistory.

 

[ancient warrior]

any black sash can train with dojonim (joe bang lee) any wednesday night at headquarters in tustin ca. if u have the huevos .......

 

[terryl965]

any black sash can train with dojonim (joe bang lee) any wednesday night at headquarters in tustin ca. if u have the huevos .......

Ok thanks for the info.

 

[Twin Fist]

i have no knowledge of this, but i HAVE always wondered why Kook Sol Won and HRD was so alike