Joint Locks and Pressure Points

[MJS]

lol! I remember when I was grappling with this kid n he tried to submit me by extending my fingers. Was quite humerous. Was grappling with someone friday n he tried to get he in a wristlock submission (the bugger got it locked on as well) but it didnt do much, just only made me angry n I slammed him down n choked him.

There are alot of people who are very flexable. However, its important to make sure that the fine points of joint locks are understood.

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

people may be flexible but a finger bent all the way back usually gets attention. I agree some locks do not seem to work on some people that is why it is necessary to learn how to change the locks and what to do if the lock dose not work

 

[Brother John]

Coming in a little late on this discussion:

I LOVE working both joint manipulation & Pressure Points / aka: Kyusho.
I feel that in incorporating these things into my curriculum/training on a regular basis that at anygiven point of the flow of action my options to take effective control are at Least doubled!! I love Kenpo, I love the contact manipulation especially!!! I feel that when you add the effectiveness of the joint manipulations and the activation of pressure points just sky rockets!!

Love it...


good topic

Your Brother
John

 

[Loaded Luke]

There are alot of people who are very flexable. However, its important to make sure that the fine points of joint locks are understood.

Mike

Why? I dont see it as being very important myself. Unless if your doing it as part of a syllabus or for the sake of getting a black belt then so be it.

 

[Bigshadow]

There are alot of people who are very flexable. However, its important to make sure that the fine points of joint locks are understood.

That is very true! Understanding the principles of the joint lock is the key. IMO, It is not about pain compliance but control. Joint locks work much like twisting a chain, eventually all the links bind against one another and the chain is no longer flexible but rigid. Some people are more flexible than others, but locks will still work, you might have to go a little further to get the lock.

Some locks remind me of weapons. For instance when I apply an arm bar type of lock, it feels like I am using a hanbo or bo, just the bo extends the length of the arm and through their shoulders.

 

[Brother John]

Why? I dont see it as being very important myself. Unless if your doing it as part of a syllabus or for the sake of getting a black belt then so be it.

Why do YOU feel it's NOT important?

Your Brother
John

 

[Loaded Luke]

Why do YOU feel it's NOT important?

Your Brother
John

Aah I asked the question first. lol, no seriously... I was referring more to small joint manipulations/finger attacks. I don't see why you have to spent time going into detailed minute fine points of these things when you can spend time concentrating on practicing more constructive and effective things.

 

[Brother John]

Then you've never had one of those done too you obviously....

at least
not correctly


Your Brother
John

 

[Loaded Luke]

Then you've never had one of those done too you obviously....

at least
not correctly


Your Brother
John

Ive had a lot of other stuff done to me, and thats what i'd rather spend my time on defending/countering, than some fingerlock that some nut's gonna try on me, lol.

 

[Brother John]

Ive had a lot of other stuff done to me, and thats what i'd rather spend my time on defending/countering, than some fingerlock that some nut's gonna try on me, lol.

To each their own I suppose Luke.
Me? I'm for gaining from ALL of it...and giving it all sometime.
I'm also not refering so much to learning to counter a fingerlock as I am in using it as ONE MORE feature of an excape or counter.
I've had times when large gross motor action was unable to remove an assailants hold, but a finger lock worked....
like magic

Your Brother (who plays with ALL the toys, not just some...)
John

 

[matt.m]

Considering my background began in Moo Sul kwan hapkido and judo I would say that I am all about locks. Locks never really present themselves, all technique have insertion and exit points. However if you drill correctly then you won't care if it is a wrist or clothes grab from a certain position.

So I say if you are going to have and use joint locks and throws, drill the fire out of them or they are worthless.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ive had a lot of other stuff done to me, and thats what i'd rather spend my time on defending/countering, than some fingerlock that some nut's gonna try on me, lol.

You would be surprised at how quickly someone does what you want them to do if you get a hold of their finger. And there are other Qinna locks that involve holding the finger a certain way against your forearm (they grabbed you) and then applying slight pressure to the wrist. People go down fairly quick with that one done properly.

Never underestimate locks and manipulations and I completely agree with matt.m...you have to practice them ALOT or they are worthless

 

[Drac]

I couldn't agree more. Cruiser mounted cameras, as well as the ones that are used by the bystanders, could make or break the officer. Sure the bad guy is gonna be in some pain, but at least he won't have a bruise from a strike

and when the apprehended male sues for damages he recieved from the officer when he was resisting arrest..The recording from the "cruisercam" will show the officer removing the suspects hand from his person..The fingerlocks are rarely seen...

 

[MJS]

Why? I dont see it as being very important myself. Unless if your doing it as part of a syllabus or for the sake of getting a black belt then so be it.

Sorry, I should have been more clear in what I was saying. When I speak of the fine points, I'm basically saying that anyone can grab someones fingers, wrist, etc., and start cranking. However, if someone doesn't understand the correct way to apply these moves, they're basically not going to get anywhere. If someone knows how to apply them correctly, the results will be much more effective.

As for the importance of knowing them...well, not every situation is going to require punching someone in the face, breaking an arm or knee, or slamming them to the ground.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Aah I asked the question first. lol, no seriously... I was referring more to small joint manipulations/finger attacks. I don't see why you have to spent time going into detailed minute fine points of these things when you can spend time concentrating on practicing more constructive and effective things.

If you don't know the fine points, you'll be missing out on quite a bit. This applies to anything, not just joint locks. This applies to proper punching and kicking skills as well as anything thats done on the ground, from a grappling perspective.

Mike

 

[Drac]

So I say if you are going to have and use joint locks and throws, drill the fire out of them or they are worthless.

Couldn't have said it better...

 

[Drac]

As for the importance of knowing them...well, not every situation is going to require punching someone in the face, breaking an arm or knee, or slamming them to the ground

John Q. Public and the ACLU has been telling LEO's that for YEARS...Now if they don't respond to a finger/joint lock (there are non-responders out there) THEN we go for the hard stuff...

 

[thetruth]

I will say one thing re. pressure points. They are one small part of a very big picture. They do not always work and a great number of factors affect their effectiveness. As long as your strikes and joint locks are effective without pressure points and the points only add a bit to their result then by all means use them. If you are relying on them to actually make a technique effective in the first place then you are cruising for a bruising because that is not how they were intended to be used. They were only ever meant to support already effective techniques. :asian:

Cheers
Sam

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Knowing how to lock someone is useful, but its important to know when its appropriate for.
Personally I figure a lock is only required in any situation where you cannot flee after there is violent contact.
In most cases the best plan for surviving conflict is get the hell out of there as fast as possible.
Sticking around and locking an aggressor runs contrary to that.
So you should only be doing it if
1 - Its your job (eg security, police)
2 - You can't leave the aggressor there (eg home, family members still there etc)
3 - You need this person intact (minimum force scenario, or sue happy rich kid. Spank for good measure)

Now with regards my actual guidelines for locking an opponent.

• Pain in not a reliable factor. Pain tolerance, adrenaline and chemical substances can skew it too much for it to ever be reliable.
• The lock must remove the opponents balance
• The lock must remove the opponents leverage
• The lock must involve a large joint. Small joint manipulation should only be used as aid to larger joing locks. For example, don't try and lock someone by the fingers or wrist. Lock the shoulder and use the fingers for added control instead.
• You cannot lock someone indefinitely. Sooner or later, they will find a way out. Even if that involves doing themself harm, just like an animal gnawing its leg off when its stuck in a bear trap.

Now then we get to the subject of pressure points

• Never bother with pressure point striking. Adrenaline dump renders fine motor skills useless, so pin-point striking chops shall be henceforth reserved for GI-Joe figures
• Use of pressure point during locks follows same rules as small joint manipulation, use as an aid to large joint locks, not on its own.

Any other points or suggestions about these?

 

[searcher]

Aah I asked the question first. lol, no seriously... I was referring more to small joint manipulations/finger attacks. I don't see why you have to spent time going into detailed minute fine points of these things when you can spend time concentrating on practicing more constructive and effective things.

Working on "more destructive things" will be fine if they present themselves to you. Sometimes you may get a wrist, shoulder, or strike that opens up and you can exploit it. Then there are those times you get a finger. If you don't know how to work a technique then you may well get the crapped kicked out of you for not knowing. At that point in time it will not seem so small.