Joe Rogans Accomplishments and USTU/USTA events?

[Laplace_demon]

Meaningless statement.

You are so full of yourself. I think I have said all that I need.

 

[Gnarlie]

Ha. Rich.

Look, if you went into a KKW school as a beginner and started kicking senior Keup grades hard enough to put them on the mat in an exercise intended to condition, then I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what martial arts is about.

Here's the thing though: they wouldn't have kicked you full contact, so you don't have that experience.

Attack the argument dude.

 

[Jaeimseu]

My point is that TKD sport has no bearing outside of TKD for fighting. You can forget about most of those WTF kicks on the street in jeans in a dangerous situation. It wouldn't be wise to try out, even if you could. The same is true in a K1/kickboxing arena. In most fighting involving kicks and punches, training in TKD rules is counterproductive.

What WTF kicks are you referring to? Traditionally, WTF rules sparring is about 90% or more roundhouse kick. Why would you be unable to round kick in jeans? I think you have a misconception that Kukki taekwondoin are all about fancy kicks. The flashy stuff makes the highlight reels, but the vast majority of players are relying on the bread and butter techniques, which doesn't generally include flying through the air or spinning. The fancy stuff usually comes out in matches where one player is outclassed.

The match strategy may not translate to a street fight, but the ability to control distance and attack with fundamental techniques does. Obviously, it would be advantageous for the fighter to have trained hand techniques, but to say the skills aren't applicable is crazy IMO. We can come up with a million "what if"" scenarios, but there are plenty of skills that are applicable to fighting outside of the TKD ring.

 

[Laplace_demon]

What WTF kicks are you referring to? Traditionally, WTF rules sparring is about 90% or more roundhouse kick. Why would you be unable to round kick in jeans? I think you have a misconception that Kukki taekwondoin are all about fancy kicks. The flashy stuff makes the highlight reels, but the vast majority of players are relying on the bread and butter techniques, which doesn't generally include flying through the air or spinning. The fancy stuff usually comes out in matches where one player is outclassed.

The match strategy may not translate to a street fight, but the ability to control distance and attack with fundamental techniques does. Obviously, it would be advantageous for the fighter to have trained hand techniques, but to say the skills aren't applicable is crazy IMO. We can come up with a million "what if"" scenarios, but there are plenty of skills that are applicable to fighting outside of the TKD ring.

There are equivalent roundhouses for a MT or Kickboxer which would work as well. I've found that ITF is more balanced than KKW. The time gained on training in kicking over punching is not worth it in my opinion.

If there are KKW schools which evenly distribute kicking and punching, then that's a seperate story. But again, there are losses and gains with every approach.

 

[Jaeimseu]

There are equivalent roundhouses for a MT or Kickboxer which would work as well. I've found that ITF is more balanced than KKW. The time gained on training in kicking over punching is not worth it in my opinion.

If there are KKW schools which evenly distribute kicking and punching, then that's a seperate story. But again, there are losses and gains with every approach.

I agree that ITF tournament sparring is more balanced (hands and feet) than WTF tournament sparring. I think it's important to note, however, that competitors make up a very small percentage of taekwondo practitioners. IMO that's why sport only schools tend to be rare (especially in the US). Trying to make a living on sport sparring only is risky at best. Not too many dojangs can keep the doors open like that. I'd say it's the same in Korea, too. Most dojang teach the broader art and then students specialize if they want to focus in a particular area.

One thing I'm sure of is that these instructors don't care if what they teach translates to kickboxing or not. Their focus is taekwondo because they love taekwondo. I don't know why people these days think every art needs to include every technique under the sun and be applicable to fighting in any and every circumstance to be considered worthy of study.

Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!

 

[Laplace_demon]

Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!

I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching. Pretty hard to refute.

 

[Gnarlie]

Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!

This has been on and off a style bashing thread since post 9 on page 1. Post 9: Rogan quoted as bashing Taekwondo. Post 10: Nobody should bash TKD but my critique of it is...

 

[Jaeimseu]

I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching. Pretty hard to refute.

Probably his hands were terrible in a ring with much more experienced kick boxers. My question is, why would he expect any different? I've seen plenty of kick boxers whose kicking skill would look pretty terrible in a taekwondo competition.

The bottom line is, you should practice what you want to do. If you want to kickbox, then kickbox. No one should expect to be immediately successful in competitions with radically different rule sets.

 

[Gnarlie]

I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching. Pretty hard to refute.

There you go again trying to extrapolate from an isolated case to draw a conclusion about the whole population.

The conclusions that can reasonably be drawn here are either or both of the following:

The individual school he attended did not focus much on hands (balanced training is quite likely if they were anything other than a competition focused school for poomsae and or sparring).

and or

He didn't take what he was taught and develop it into self-style.

Taekwondo is not an art for people who like to be spoonfed. A large proportion of responsibility for the outcome of training lies with the practitioner.

Neither of the above conclusions says or can be extrapolated to say anything about KKW schools in general.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok, tough guy. I downed a red belt, but I don't remember which excercise it was. It was some type of fighting. Our training was not only against each other.

Once i knocked the wind out of someone with a back kick through the kicking shield he was holding since we are comparing stories now.

 

[TrueJim]

In case anybody is interested, here are some YouTube videos of taekwondo-style kicks being used in real fights:

I'm not suggesting that this is commonplace, only that it does happen. I grabbed these from the Wiki page on self-defense. If anybody has any other good examples, let me know.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We were instructed to kick each other with no protection. I must have done sparring too, since I was graded there, but it was quite a while back.

So a couple untrained little children were (stupidly) kicking each other without gear, and you're comparing that to world class atheltes?

Congratulations. This is one of the silliest things I've seen all week. Heeere's your sign.

I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching. Pretty hard to refute.

No, all it actually means is that HE didn't learn to use his hands effectively in THAT ONE school.

Trying to extrapolate a result that is relevant to the entire world from a sample size of one is ridiculous.

I mean, after all, I've seen a man shot in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round and be just fine.
Therefore, by your logic, it doesn't hurt people to shoot them in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round.

 

[Grenadier]

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[Drose427]

I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching. Pretty hard to refute.

Or it means Joe himself had a weak hand game......

one student really isnt representative of his school, forget being representative of tkd

 

[Laplace_demon]

So a couple untrained little children were (stupidly) kicking each other without gear, and you're comparing that to world class atheltes?

Congratulations. This is one of the silliest things I've seen all week. Heeere's your sign.

I was 16 or 17 at the time and around the same height as today. The world class athletes of today are wearing heavy padding, engaging in foot fencing.

No, all it actually means is that HE didn't learn to use his hands effectively in THAT ONE school.

Trying to extrapolate a result that is relevant to the entire world from a sample size of one is ridiculous.

I mean, after all, I've seen a man shot in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round and be just fine.
Therefore, by your logic, it doesn't hurt people to shoot them in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round.

You are assuming that an above average student in TKD (Joe Rogan) doesn't know how to use his hands. I however assume that he does (by virtue of being above average). Who has the ureasonable assumptions here?

 

[Drose427]

I was 16 or 17 at the time and around the same height as today. The world class athletes of today are wearing heavy padding, engaging in foot fencinng.


You are assuming that an above average student in TKD (Joe Rogan) doesn't know how to use his hands. I however assume that he does (by virtue of being above average). Who has the ureasonable assumptions here?

Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....

If he was some above average, world class fighter hed be bragged about as a student of his association to speak for the quality of training. Its just gpod marketing to do so

not to mention in the only video clip of him, i believe he goes into the match with his hands down, which isnt a trademark of ITF in your own words so clearly it was a personal choice to fight that way. If he neglects his hands in one match, odds are he would in others.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....

If he was some above average, world class fighter hed be bragged about as a student of his association to speak for the quality of training. Its just gpod marketing to do so

not to mention in the only video clip of him, i believe he goes into the match with his hands down, which isnt a trademark of ITF in your own words so clearly it was a personal choice to fight that way. If he neglects his hands in one match, odds are he would in others.

Lots of ITF guys at the highest level (world finals) that fight with their hands down in competition. That's a myth. They want us to keep them up in training though. And we train hands 50% of the time. They aren't "terrible".

Rogan kept them down against kickboxers, but they were clearly no good either, since he labelled them "terrible". The match I posted might have been WTF rules, given their uniforms.

 

[Drose427]

Lots of ITF guys at the highest level (world finals) that fight with their hands down in competition. That's a myth. They want us to keep them up in training though. And we train hands 50% of the time. They aren't "terrible".

Rogan kept them down against kickboxers, but they were clearly no good either, since he labelled them "terrible". The match I posted might have been WTF rules, given their uniforms.

of course his were terrible.....you just said he kept them down..

Again, how is one average black belt who has poor hands representative of his whole school?

A reverse punch in sparring is the equixvalent of a boxers straight (and cross if he chooses) many brawlers in the UFC use Straight punches as the Majority of their puncnhes and do just fine (Guida, Machida uses ALOT of reverse punches) so clearly if ones careful and disciplined, theyll be able to hold their own against hooks, uppercuts, etc. Will they ever be as good boxers as a bocer? Of course not, but they can sure as heck keep a tight guard and throw combinations of punches/kicks to hold their own.

If rogan kept his guard up, he wouldnt have been pummeled. If he had bad hands, it was a personal issue, not a school/style one.

 

[Laplace_demon]

If rogan kept his guard up, he wouldnt have been pummeled. If he had bad hands, it was a personal issue, not a school/style one.

Depends on the schools priorities. If you only kick against mitts and never strike, then you will not develop good hands. We never used our hands outside of patterns in my KKW school. It was exclusively kicking against mitts. The guys were technically skilled kickers over there, since that was basically all they did, outside of patterns (which weren't prioritized). If Rogans school was the same, then it's no wonder.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....

He was a TKD instructor.