Joe Palanzo's Kenpo Self Protection.

[hongkongfooey]

Would you all like to know why Mr. Joe did what he has done. All of our students were having trouble learning these techniques, his sontried to come up with an easier way to learn this stuff. He did this by breaking the techniques down into the first three levels which puts you at a black belt. None of you really know what they had to go through to put this tape out there and none of you know how much money they have been making and how many students they have gotten from them, especially after the Supershow in Las Vegas. The tapes were supposed to be like a training lesson for the two individuals. THey were supposed to make mistakes so Mr. Joe could fix them. For some people to compare this to a McDojo, I am ashamed. I have been teaching at that school for almost 5 yearsand it is no where near that.
"To see is to know, but to feel is to believe."

Why are all of the students having trouble learning the material? Sounds to me if all of the the students aren't learning, there is a problem with the instruction. Why would there need to be an easier way to learn the techniques? Some of the techniques are difficult to perform on a body, I will give you that, but they will get easier with dedicated practice.

I have been to his school in Pikesville and I have been to the sister school in Cockeysville many times. I didn't have a chance to see Mr. Palanzo do anything as he wasn't there. I did see Mr. Walsh teach his class, a few times. Nice guy, but his students were unimpressive. They just looked like they were going through the motions. I had intentions of joining his school before I had watched a class, I left disappointed.

 

[parkerkarate]

Why are all of the students having trouble learning the material? Sounds to me if all of the the students aren't learning, there is a problem with the instruction. Why would there need to be an easier way to learn the techniques? Some of the techniques are difficult to perform on a body, I will give you that, but they will get easier with dedicated practice.

I have been to his school in Pikesville and I have been to the sister school in Cockeysville many times. I didn't have a chance to see Mr. Palanzo do anything as he wasn't there. I did see Mr. Walsh teach his class, a few times. Nice guy, but his students were unimpressive. They just looked like they were going through the motions. I had intentions of joining his school before I had watched a class, I left disappointed.

Well for one, the Cockeysville school is no longer under Mr. Palanzo. We broke them off because of financial problems, I will leave it at that. Some of the techniques have changed a little bit and a bunch were taken out because of repitition and so forth. Mr. Joe only teaches the instructors now twice a month. And I do agree with some people that say that he is leaving alot of the info out but do we need to be taught absolutly everything. If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them. I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I believe this is the point where Dr. Chapel would make a comment like "Differences in methodology will dictate necessities." .... but I could be wrong.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well for one, the Cockeysville school is no longer under Mr. Palanzo. We broke them off because of financial problems, I will leave it at that. Some of the techniques have changed a little bit and a bunch were taken out because of repitition and so forth. Mr. Joe only teaches the instructors now twice a month. And I do agree with some people that say that he is leaving alot of the info out but do we need to be taught absolutly everything. If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them. I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction.

I have been to Mr. Palanzo's schools more than enough and can say this in my experiences and opinions regarding this discussion.

1) People don't need to be spoon fed but good intruction is good and bad is bad period. The spoon fed reason is an excuse for lack of detail in an instructional product. That's just inexcusable. There is a big difference between leaving a few minor details out and leaving a few major details out.

2) If people are having problems learning something then that is a DIRECT reflection of the instruction. There are not bad students only bad teachers an old saying goes. If they don't get it they don't get the belt period. Making a DVD wouldn't fix this, more hands on instruction of the instructors and students COULD if the instruction was good enough.

3) I have unfortunately gotten more comments on the "unimpressiveness" of Joe Palanzo affiliated martial artists than any other group. For example Myself and my friend Aaron Chapman went to a Joe Palanzo school and worked out. After the workout an old man on the sidelines who does not train in martial arts stopped us and said "Where do you guys train? I can tell that you aren't from here and it's not because I've never seen you two. You guys actually hit people instead of this patty cake karate they do up here. They're just going through the motions." This old man sat there for 30 minutes praising how hard we work compared to what he's used to seeing. He even tried to get myself and my friend to agree to help teach his grandson who was training there but we have an honor code: No stealing students, period.

4) At the LTKKA camp a week or so ago there were about 4 Black Belts with Joe Palanzo workout bags and Joe Palanzo patches. I lost track of how many people asked me (as they know I'm from Baltimore) how these guys got their Black Belts. One of the seminar instructors had to even pull two of these guys to the side and explain to them that their "movement was both sloppy and lazy and that they needed to stop saying 'I got it' because they don't have it and can't do it well."

5) You can't say you're a head instructor and that there is nothing wrong with the instruction. Your opinion is notably biased as you wouldn't get on here and say "I'm a head instructor and my teaching sucks"

6) I went to a WKKA camp last year (or the year before last) and observed the rank testing being done. There were Black Belts screwing up their techniques and forgetting their forms. Nothing wrong with that. They either were nervous or weren't ready and we are all human. The problem is they were promoted anyway with no corrections given. The only "shining lights" were two woman that were actaully hitting and one third degree that was going for fourth who was moving with authority. I commented to my friend that this test was depressing me to no end. Let alone the extreme watering down of the curriculum.

I try to refrain from posting negative commentary even when it's true, I'm not as blunt as Doc. But the "spoon fed" excuse I've heard too many times for poor instruction got to me big time. Nothing worse than an excuse for lazy or poor instruction. And the "you don't know how many students we got from those" which translates to "hey most of the guys posting aren't impressed with the stuff but some nameless statistics were impressed." didn't help either. Food for thought....When people experienced in something express displeasure with it in large amounts (like the members of this board" it doesn't help to go "we got students from this". All that means is you impressed some kenpo beginners who didn't know what to look for.

 

[parkerkarate]

I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that. All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that. All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.

D*** it hurt me to read that but it explains alot. Another instructor in the area a few days ago explained to me "that teaching has become work and no one likes to go to work.....".

 

[parkerkarate]

D*** it hurt me to read that but explains alot. Another instructor in the area a few days explained to me "that teaching has become work and no one likes to go to work.....".

I deffinitely like to teach there there I will leave my opinions at that.

 

[Flying Crane]

...but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that.

About 20 years ago my instructor attended a seminar in Chicago with Mr. Parker and a number of his students, including Joe Palanzo. I remember when he returned from the seminar, he spoke very very highly of the experience and all the teachers, including Mr. Palanzo. It's too bad that he seems to have lost his passion for what he does.

I think this illustrates the danger of turning martial arts into business. Often, for many of us, we simply work at our job without a lot of passion for the work itself. We may be good at what we do, but it is simply a means to collect a paycheck and pay the rent and put food on the table. Our real passions usually fall outside our job.

When you turn your passion into a business, it can become like a job. You lose the passion that you had, and you do it simply to collect the paycheck. You may still do a decent job, but often the quality diminishes because you don't care about it the way you once did. It gets old, like any job.

I often question the wisdom of turning MA into business. Personally, I think it is usually best to keep it outside of business, don't tie your livelihood to it, and don't lose the passion. Make it a side business at most. I think quality stays higher this way.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I was really hoping that he was going to say there was a date planned to be in columbus.

There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?

 

[Kenpodoc]

I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that. All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.

I've noticed that a lot of schools have essentially a 2 class structure. a) those who really want to work and learn and arne't really rank motivated and b) those who pay for the school and allow the the first group to have a home to come and work in. My solution is to thank those who allow my teacher to maintain his studio. This is also why I care very little about my rank or anyone elses for that matter. The process is what counts not rank.. I hope Joe can at least occassionally remember his old passion for Kenpo.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?

It amazed me too. I'm still thankful for my luck.

Jeff

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

It amazed me too. I'm still thankful for my luck.

Jeff

LOL!!!!!

 

[jfarnsworth]

There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?

Yeah man.:uhyeah:

We're roughly 60 miles (give or take) north of Dr. Chapel's student in Columbus. I can't speak for Kenpodoc but I, myself will be sure to be there regardless of the funds. Some way some how I'll be there.

While I"m thinking of it. When Mr. Jim gave me his business card, was the phone number on it his home number or his studio number? I've been working that form ALOT since last week and have one question that needs an answer.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yeah man.:uhyeah:

We're roughly 60 miles (give or take) north of Dr. Chapel's student in Columbus. I can't speak for Kenpodoc but I, myself will be sure to be there regardless of the funds. Some way some how I'll be there.

While I"m thinking of it. When Mr. Jim gave me his business card, was the phone number on it his home number or his studio number? I've been working that form ALOT since last week and have one question that needs an answer.

Probably the studio number, but I just PM'd you the studio phone and his cell phone as well as my own phone so you can definitely get a hold of him when you need to.

 

[RichK]

James, now now, BREATHE. I normally do not pipe in but just read many posts, especially from Mr. Hawkins here who can put into application what he types. Parkerkarate, your profile says you have been in AK for 8 years. I was a Brown Belt for 10 years and never tested because the belt color to me is not important. Mr. Joe and I had a closed door talk 8 years ago when you started about why he changed it to 15 techs per belt level. Back then I understood why he did it. I DO know how much effort and money went into making the videos as I know when he started the old videos but dropped them. As a 3rd Brown back then I was helping people with their BB testing because I came from the 24 system which made me lack in my training and also made me, dare I say, devalue the belt structure there. The Cockeysville school was not totally dropped for financial reasons. Maybe for the head school as the enrollments were dropping. I also know the clientele at the Pikesville school.

"Repetition and so forth"? Gee follow the web of knowledge and the understanding of opposites and reverses.

"If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them." So what you are saying here is that students should be able to learn from themselves? If that is the case why should they be locked into a timeframe of classes when they can "figure" it out for themselves? So did you learn all of the principles from yourself? Do you even know all of the principles enough to teach them? Don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on your character. There are so many principles to every technique and a lot of instructors do not even understand that each and every move has a reason and principle for that move.

"I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction." HI as in the belt ranking, which by the way if I am correct according to Infinite Insights 3rd is Instructor, I will have to dig that out and look it up as that is one more thing I forgot. Are you saying there are no 4ths and above there teaching? I can not remember what rank Richard is, I thought it was 4th.

"Would you all like to know why Mr. Joe did what he has done." Sure explain this one as you opened it up with an explanative question but avoided answering it. An easier way of learning the technique is to break the technique down itself with practical applications, explanations of the why and repetition. Not by removing a technique when a student says "This is hard to remember". So what do you do for the majority of the students that can get the 5 techs per belt level down in two weeks and can go through a good motion of the tech in a month? Test them every other month or bore them and have them drop from the rolls?

“and none of you know how much money they have been making and how many students they have gotten from them,” Let’s see, I got the camp itinerary letter in the mail, BTW has been only the 3rd or 4th mailing since 1993 as a WKKA member, and noticed the content and the price of the “certification” for that Thursday. Thursday seems to pack more learning in than the whole weekend’s camp. So for $1,200 I go through all of the tech levels, sets and forms I will be a certified WKKA instructor. Wait, I thought my belt certificates were the certification of teaching, and the continuation of learning and improving myself, not a one day learn everything you can about the new curriculum. So if a dummy like me can do that then so can all of those students from the NAPMA convention.

I will be the first to admit that I hate a few of the techniques and see no practical application of it. But I also am willing to admit that the technique that I may hate goes into the understanding of it's family grouping technique. I am not particularly fond of "Blinding Sacrifice" being moved into the level one area and it being cut down to two moves which are completely linear.

Sorry for my rant and James I, for my sake, hope you missed me at the camp as I messed up one tech as my "dummy" threw a different attack that I had to adjust and come up with a defense on the spot, which I thought that was what EPAK was all about, and I knew I messed up a little on Long 5 but didn't stop and kept on truckin'. Nerves are a b****.

Sorry but I wrote this at 3 yesterday just as my connection went down and now just came up so I thought I would still post it.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

James, now now, BREATHE. I normally do not pipe in but just read many posts, especially from Mr. Hawkins here who can put into application what he types..........Sorry for my rant and James I, for my sake, hope you missed me at the camp as I messed up one tech as my "dummy" threw a different attack that I had to adjust and come up with a defense on the spot, which I thought that was what EPAK was all about, and I knew I messed up a little on Long 5 but didn't stop and kept on truckin'. Nerves are a b****.

Sorry but I wrote this at 3 yesterday just as my connection went down and now just came up so I thought I would still post it.

:Breathing Breathing: phew! ok got it. LOL. Man good post. And I don't think I saw your part of the test. The screw ups I saw were a lot more major than what you just described. I can see the difference between nerves slop. As much as I gave the benefit of the doubt when I mentioned nerves in an earlier post, most of what I saw actually fell in the slop category. And now you know why they're called "dummies" LOL. Wrong attack! bad dummy

On a side note I'm moving my Kenpo from the current 24 technique curriculum I teach to a 9 technique system and spreading it all of the way to 10th degree. That way the students will always have new material to work on from now till Grandmaster.

I'm also starting a number of supplimental training programs such as:

K.R.A.P. - Kenpo Removing All Principles
I.D.I.O.T. - Insufficiently Designed Individually Operated Training
B.I.G. T.I.M.E. - Belt Is Guaranteed, Training Is Marginally Expected
V.I.D.E.O. - Very Inefficient Dollar Earning Operation
S.U.C.K.E.R. - Students Under Cash, Kenpo Equals Revenue

 

[Ray]

K.R.A.P. - Kenpo Removing All Principles
I.D.I.O.T. - Insufficiently Designed Individually Operated Training
B.I.G. T.I.M.E. - Belt Is Guaranteed, Training Is Marginally Expected
V.I.D.E.O. - Very Inefficient Dollar Oriented Enterprise
S.U.C.K.E.R. - Students Under Cash, Kenpo Equals Revenue

I belong to the S.E.A - Society to end acronyms.

I don't think the the limiting factor in "having new material" is how the cirriculum is spread out. I think it's our own creativity in what we can find in the material we know.

And there's a world of things to learn that can kenpo-related besides kenpo per se.

 

[parkerkarate]

Mr. Sparando only teaches there everywednesday for the rest of the time it is myself and richard that are the highest ranking on the mat.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I belong to the S.E.A - Society to end acronyms.

I don't think the the limiting factor in "having new material" is how the cirriculum is spread out. I think it's our own creativity in what we can find in the material we know.

And there's a world of things to learn that can kenpo-related besides kenpo per se.

Lost me here Ray, and I screwed up one of my acronyms

 

[Flying Crane]

So what do you do for the majority of the students that can get the 5 techs per belt level down in two weeks and can go through a good motion of the tech in a month? Test them every other month or bore them and have them drop from the rolls?

I cannot comment on the curriculum as I don't know it, but this statement makes it sound like a lot of material is in there as filler, to give students something to do and keep them coming back and paying fees. Is it a marketing ploy designed to keep people dependent?

A small number of techs that are solid, and that you are very good at, are much more valuable than a long list of techs that are poorly designed and/or you can't do well because of the volume and you are spread too thin...