Jinekan Training Methodology!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Brian you are correct, respect should be shown on all sides. I still have friends in the Bujinkan and I still respect my 1st instructor John Lindsey though he is now Genbukan. Of course we have not seen each other in a number of years. However, I would not be here without Hatsumi Sensei, John Lindsey Sensei and of course Manaka Sensei.

Philosophies on teaching the information may be different. But yes still one. I always wonder if other arts like Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu have the type of issues as the Takamatsu-Den arts. They too have 3 different branches. I am more familiar with the Sekiguchi Branch only because I have students that formely studied under that branch. It seems, though the original founder was the same, they have respect for each others differences and their branches without a lot of contreversies.

Hey Dale,

I am a practitioner of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido and yes there are more variations (even more than three) from what I can gather. They do not seem to have as many controversies. (good for them)

 

[MJS]

Mr. Joseph,

Thank you for a very detailed reply. A few more questions if you don't mind.

I'm assuming Manaka Sensei is based in Japan, not the states. Does he make frequent trips to the states for training sessions? How often do the instructors in the states travel to Japan for training?

In one of your replies, you stated:

The differences between the Jinenkan and Bujinkan in my opinion are the attention to details and the openess in which Manaka Sensei provides the information.

Now, my next question is a sincere one, not intended to cause a flame war or bashing of the art. If you prefer not to answer, thats perfectly fine with me, or if you'd rather PM me your reply. Would you say that instructors from the Bujinkan withhold certain things or wait until the students reach a certain point in training? I ask this because of the openess statement.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[kakuma]

I'm assuming Manaka Sensei is based in Japan, not the states. Does he make frequent trips to the states for training sessions?

In 2001 Manaka Sensei resided in the MD to help build and grow the level of training within the Jinenkan he returned to Japan in 2004 and opened the Jinenkan Honbu in 2005. Manaka Sensei does in fact reside in Nodashi, Japan.

He makes trips back to the US at least once a year. This year we are fortunate to have him in the US in March doing workshops and again in Oct. for our annual Seminar.

How often do the instructors in the states travel to Japan for training?

This is totally dependant on the instructor. Speaking only for myself at this point, I travel twice a year to train.

Because the last question will be based solely upon my opinion I will send my answer via PM.

 

[haikufive]

Hello everyone!
I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!).
One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love.
Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
Scott Plyler
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo

 

[bydand]

Glad to have another Jinenkan Practitioner here. There are a couple right now and it is interesting to hear about the differences between the X-Kan's. I find that effortlessness with movement a bit like a love/hate relationship for me. I love to see it in action, love to work toward it for myself; but hate it with a passion when it is used against me. It is humbling to have somebody half my size bounce me off the floor at will, or tie me into a pretzel showing a technique and having to tap out while they are casually explaining to the rest of the class where you could go from there.

Scott (haikufive), go on over to the "meet and greet" section and run up a post introducing yourself to the rest of the forum. This is a great bunch and the only place where I haven't seen everything posted concerning any of the X-kans turn into a flamefest. Oh sure some spirited disscussion is raised now and again, but nothing like most other forums.

 

[mrhnau]

Hello everyone!
I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!).
One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love.
Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
Scott Plyler
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo

Hi Scott. I might be moving up your way in a few months. I'll have to come check you guys out, if thats ok

 

[MJS]

Hello everyone!
I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!).
One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love.
Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
Scott Plyler
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo

Welcome to Martial Talk! I look forward to hearing more of your experience with the Jinenkan!:ultracool

Mike

 

[kakuma]

Scott,

Great to have you on martialtalk as well. Congratulations on passing shodan. It was well deserved bro. :ultracool Wish I could have been there.
Let me know when you plan to make it this way. We'd love to see you.

 

[haikufive]

Wow! Quite a pleasant reception. Seems like an extremely nice group here, I look forward to catching up on the threads and having mutually beneficial discussions. I'll hop over and post on the new members section pronto.

Dale - Thanks for the kind words! I'll definitely contact you when I know I'm going to have an overnight out your way. I've been meaning to get out there with you guys for a while now, but I've actually been ending up on LA a lot and training with Peter and his crew when I'm not home here in Maryland.

Mrhnau - Of course!!! Anytime you'd like to come up, just let me know through PM or email contact! I'll give you the details of class schedules and whatnot. We'd love to have you!

So I was wondering if any of the non-Jinenkan practitioners had had any opportunities to train with Manaka Sensei before and after his founding of the Jinenkan, and had any input as to changes that they might notice in his movements, etc. I absolutely love watching the man in action, but I'd still been seeing everything from a very limited perspective (Oh wow! That guys just flew up into the air! Wish I could do that!) instead of taking in the more specifics of techniques (Aaaaahhhhh, I see. He shifted his weight a little onto his front leg to break the guys balance, then flipped him over when he tried to settle. I see!!!). It's funny, but I've noticed as my training has progressed, it's definitely the smaller, teeny tiny details that make all the difference. I think that's one thing that I really, really like about training inside of the Jinenkan- everyone whom I've ever trained with, at seminars, in their dojos, and in the dojo where I reside, is very very nitpicky about details. And it really DOES make a world of difference, once you pick up on the subtleties. I've found it pretty much consistently across the board. Meticulous attention to detail.

 

[Myoumei]

Greetings all, I train at the Jinenkan Los Angeles dojo for a few months, am currently 9th kyu, and will test for 8th kyu soon. Note that I have started cross-training in an unrelated jujutsu school nearby, but have kept this fact to myself at the Jinenkan dojo.

The international organization recognizes the following ranks:
3rd kyu: green belt
2nd kyu: purple belt
1st kyu: brown belt
I believe to be 3rd kyu or higher, you must be a member of the international organization.

The L.A. dojo has the following additional ranks:
9th kyu: yellow-white
8th kyu: yellow
7th kyu: orange-white
6th kyu: orange
5th kyu: red
4th kyu: blue

Basic curriculum is on a sixth month rotation. That means a student starting at any point at the dojo will get back to what that student was studying at the start after six months. They trains 2 times per week, for ONLY 30 minutes (the students can warm up on their own for up to 20 minutes before hand) Imediately after this 30 minutes is over, the students only enrolled in the basic program leave the mat, and only those paying for the "Masters" program remain, and train for an additional 25 minutes or so.

Additionally, students that pay for (and *only* students that pay for) the "masters" program also learn the advanced curriculum, which I believe also rotates every six months. The "Masters" program is open to any student, not just advanced ones, and allows the student to train a 3rd time each week, and also train in the advanced classes that occur immediately after the basic technique classes

Fees for the basic curriculum is $100.00 per month, but with a minimum commitment of six months.
Fees for the "Masters" program is $150.00 per month, with a minimum commitment of 12 months.

Testing is every two months, for the lesser kyus (9th-4th).

******************************************************
My concerns:
1) Commitment period. Neither the Bujinkan nor the Ginenkan [sic] require lengthy contracts like this. As a consultant, my income tends to be feast-or-famine cycle, with me on a famine cycle atm (at the moment). This makes long-term commitments for large amount of money somewhat problematic for me.

2) The length of each training session. At the Jujutsu place I train, we train for two hours. That is a far cry from 30 minutes, or even 1 hour. I believe 2 hours is longer than most places (Most other places I have investigated are in the hour to hour and a half range); however, a half hour is a bit of a ..scam?

3) Rank promotion. The rank testing comes every two months, and is nearly automatic for the lesser kyus (9th-4th), with students rarely being "refused" promotion. However, on a good note: appears to be much slower promotion after that (perhaps due to international dojo standards).

4) The general over-all cost.
This is somewhat less of a concern.

$150 a month is not as high as some places...at the Jujutsu place I started at, a lady there was telling me some Karate schools she had looked into wanted as much at $250 a month! However, $150 is not "cheap" either. The kyokushin karate school in downtown Little Tokyo, Los Angeles, charges $85 a month for unlimited access...that means up to 4 times a week for the lesser kyus (which start at 6th, I believe), and they are a re-nowned hard-hitting and effictive style.

Meanwhile, the jujutsu place I train at charges $45 for THREE months...that is $15 a month. However, it is at a community center, so a low fee structure is to be expected.

******************************************************
Things that are NOT concerns:

1) The techniques themselves. They appear to be very effective, and possibly superior and generally less complicated to implement in a real fight, than what I am getting at the community center.

2) The plethora of belts. Have a belt color for every kyu might seem like "belt farming" to some folks, but I don't mind that part ( I like lots of "levels"; goes back to my D&D days ). The belt fees are only $30, which is MUCH lower than some places I've been told about.

 

[Myoumei]

Wow! Quite a pleasant reception. Seems like an extremely nice group here, I look forward to catching up on the threads and having mutually beneficial discussions. I'll hop over and post on the new members section pronto.

Nice to meet you, Haikufive; I believe we have met

You were the 1st kyu that visited us last month, who works in the Airline industry, am I not mistaken?

 

[haikufive]

2) The length of each training session. At the Jujutsu place I train, we train for two hours. That is a far cry from 30 minutes, or even 1 hour. I believe 2 hours is longer than most places (Most other places I have investigated are in the hour to hour and a half range); however, a half hour is a bit of a ..scam?

3) Rank promotion. The rank testing comes every two months, and is nearly automatic for the lesser kyus (9th-4th), with students rarely being "refused" promotion. However, on a good note: appears to be much slower promotion after that (perhaps due to international dojo standards).

4) The general over-all cost.
This is somewhat less of a concern.




This might not be the proper place for me to drop my two cents, but I figure I'll go ahead and give it a shot. I've trained at the Los Angeles dojo before, and from my personal experience the 45-50 minute training sessions are VERY intense, with pretty much nonstop rotation. There is very little to no 'warmup' or 'junan taiso' period, with the assumption being that a student is always welcome to come to class earlier in order to stretch out. The kata, as they are being taught, are done repetitively, with many different people. Therefore you get a wide range of people to practice on, with different body types and ways of movement. The instructor will take time to explain, but there's much more emphasis on rolling up your sleeves and actually getting into the technique. The cost is higher than I've seen at some schools, but also so is the accesibility, with classes being available nearly every night of the week. Also, the dojo itself is quite nice, with a fully mirrored wall, tatami floor, nice soothing green paint job, plenty of training implements, and whatnot. I can honestly say that the workout I've gotten when I trained there, in the 45-50 minute offerings, was quite intense. Especially the sword classes.
Anyhow, I guess everyone has a different experience and different expectations. Different instructors do things differently for different reasons, and to appeal to different audiences.
Have happy and safe training! Maybe I'll see you out on the Left Coast sometime!
Scott Plyler.
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo

 

[haikufive]

Nice to meet you, Haikufive; I believe we have met

You were the 1st kyu that visited us last month, who works in the Airline industry, am I not mistaken?

That's me! Hopefully I'll be able to get out there and train with y'all again sometime son- I'll be out there again this coming Monday night but unfortunately won't get in in time to train, I think we get in at like 11pm or so and then leave out around noon the next day.

 

[Myoumei]

. I've trained at the Los Angeles dojo before, and from my personal experience the 45-50 minute training sessions are VERY intense, with pretty much nonstop rotation.

Thanks for your reply; hopefully we can train together again soon (you'll recognize me when you see me, and we did train together one session )

]Its 30 minutes training for the basic program, 50 minutes for the Masters program. Yes, I agree the training IS pretty intense, and set up in an effective fashion so that the students get a lot of good drilling with many partners. Plus, Peter Sensai is nice about the seshions and often allows them to run over a few minutes. Additionally, Peter Sensai, the dojo cho, always trains us *personally*, and never passes us off on a lower dan to train us. These are all very good features...I wanted to take a positive note here.

Those in the Master program may well find the 50 minutes to be more than enough work out...it is quite intense, as you said ; however, those in the basic program only get the 30 minutes, and I can't personally afford to commit to $150 a month for 12 months at this time ; so really, its more a personal issue than a problem with the dojo. This dojo is located in Westwood, a quite affluent part of Los Angeles…most of those that live in this area can probably afford the 12 month commitment easily; and those that can afford the commitment, get the full 50+ minutes, which is probably sufficiently intense for most people, as you described.

I personally commute to this dojo clear over from South El Monte. South El Monte is…somewhat the opposite of affluent. The only reason I travel so far is because I specifically wanted to train in one of the X-cans, and not some tai-kwon-do or mcDojo Karate place (The kind where if you try to ask them what style of karate they train, all you get back is a blank stare). Unfortunately, that… and maybe a few Aikido places… are all that is offered close to home.

One thing you can be sure of at the LA Jinenkan dojo: The training you get is the real deal, however much of it there might be.

 

[Don Roley]

I too hope the discussions will be enjoyable. Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.

Well, maybe he is too humble to use the title Soke, but it is a title he is sometimes refered to.

I saw a video of his stuff for sale. He has his own art aside from those like the Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc. It is his own and no one elses. So the video for sale lists him as the soke of it. (IIRC- Jinen ryu). So while Manaka may not feel he should use the title soke through a sense of humilty, it was not incorrect for Brian to use the title to honor him.

 

[kakuma]

Don,

I have no desire to argue any point with you. As you have been very expressive of your opinions, however, Manaka Sensei has never referred to himself as soke of anything.

The title was used by one of his students only because he is the originator of said style. Someone elses reference does not mean it is an official title. Manaka Sensei does not issue license or rank in said style and therefore does not have a title for said style either.

His official title of the Jissen Kobudo Jinenkan Orginization is "Kancho". That has never changed despite what you have seen and heard. Therefore, the use of anything otherwise as stated previously would be incorrect.

Furthermore, the thread is titled Jinenkan Training Methodology and not in reference to incorrect title references. I would also like to refer you back to Mr. Hubbard's notice in this section.

If you would like to know what Manaka Senei has stated concerning the creation of the Jinen Ryu please refer to this link...
www.jinenkan-inazuma.com/SenseiInterview.html
Though this interview was done a few years ago, Sensei's thoughts have not changed since the interview concerning said system.

Though my Japanese is not the greatest, the translation of the word Soke does not mean founder, originator or creator. Therefore, the use of the term would still be incorrect. Since Manaka Unsui Sensei has offically refered to his title as "Kancho" until he changes that title it is appropriate to only refer to him as such.

Have a great day.

 

[amitchell]

Mr. VanCise, thank you for starting this thread and positng my clips. I will try my best to answer your questions and those of others from my experience, while all of the info my friend and colleague Dale has provided is great.

I do not come from a Bujinkan background. I did train with a few Shidoshi to experience Budo Taijutsu while studying Jujutsu, and I was VERY fortunate with the very brief experience that I had, to train with Shidoshi Sean Askew who I found to be one of the best trainers and practioners of Budo I have yet to meet. His training and his students were fantastic, so this is the only direct experience with the Bujinkan I have - and it was great. Outside of this, I know little about it. How I came to train with my teacher is another matter and if any one wants to know, I'd be glad to share, just PM me as it's off topic.

Concerning the comments regarding the disconnect with Hatsumi Soke and the other XKan(?), I cannot and would never speak on the behalf of my teacher, but I will tell you when someone in the Honbu one morning referred to Hatsumi Soke as "Hatsumi", Manaka Sensei became visibly bothered with this and directed the student to NEVER speak about this man in such a way and they were to use the words Sensei whenever discussing his "teachers" name. That made things very clear to me that my Sensei holds his teacher in a high regard and that whatever their history...it has nothing to do with me and my path in Kobudo. I leave it at that and will always do my best to follow this example. It should also be pointed out that in Sensei's book, he speaks very openly about his teacher and the early years of his training. I encourage anyone interested to learn more about Manaka Unsui, to purchase his new book.

To address the question of training, I will give you a brief detail of how we train at our Dojo, which is not much unlike Dale's. Our focus is centered on basics and we will only train what has been directly taught to us by Sensei. There is no henka and no down time during training. Most of my classes are run with cadence (as it is military arts) but this is my own personal teaching method. We try to push oursleves hard and combative. I will not ask anything of my students I cannot do myself and I know this is the case with all Jinenkan Dojo Cho. We (my dojo) do use resistance in our training, sparring (weapons too), and tons of tanren. The main focus is on heavy repitition and perfection of Kihon happo, striking and rolling.
Classes: 1:30
Prior to class: Junan Taiso
:00-:15 Daken Kihon (500 reps)
:15-:30 Ukemi / Taihenjutsu
:30-:50 Nage waza or Torite
:50-1:15 Kata (1 per week, This week: Karame Dori) 40 reps
1:15-1:30 Randori (skill level specific)

Weapons 1 day a week (Friday)
Classes: 1:30

Kenjutsu 2 nights a week
Classes: 1:00
:00-:10 Kihon To Ho (30 reps / 210 cuts)
:10-:20 Ashi sabaki and blocking/receiving
:20-:40 Jinen Ryu Kata (same as above) 30 reps
:40-:60 Randori or Karatakewari / suburito 200 reps

I train with Sensei personally, four times a year. I travel to both Japan and Europe, as well as attend his US seminars. Also, I make every attempt to bring my students of all levels on my travels. This year in Belgium, we will have 9 students training from new york, from 15 - 60 years of age! As a Dojo Cho, this is my idea of success. When Sensei lived in the states, and he was only a couple hours away, I was fortunate to spend alot more time training with him.

Someone asked about prices, our center is open 7 days a week and classes run from 6:30am up to 9:30pm so we do charge. Depends on what the student is doing as we teach everything from Ikebana to Jissen Kobudo. We're not expensive though.

I hope I was able to bring some insight to how we train here in our part of New York and how we represent Manaka Unsui Sensei.

Sho Shin

Kindly,
Adam Mitchell

 

[kakuma]

Welcome to martialtalk Adam. Glad to have another Jinenkan Dojo Cho on board.