ballen0351
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Tez im confused. Are you saying he wasnt a terriorist but simply a racist?
Jewish children shot dead in France
- Thread starter Tez3
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It's pretty clear he is a terrorist and was fighting against NATO in Afghanistan. No need to muddy the water on this one. One of their fighters came to the West to bring the fight to us. The back story is interesting though. It would explain why an Algerian would pull up stakes and go and fight in the first place.
ballen0351
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I understand that. I dont understand what tez is trying to say. I may just be reading it wrong but when i read her posts it seems to me she is dismissing the terrorist part in favor of the french are racist and thats why he shot them. Im just trying to understand her point of view. I find her opinions often valuable for me to see things in a different way so im trying to get her point even if i dont always agree.
OP
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- #44
No I'm saying he's a terrorist who become one because of racism. France is possibly the most racist country in Europe. The French don't really want anyone who is not white, and Catholic in their country, the Arabs are not welcome but because of Frances colonial 'obligations' they have a great many Arab immigrants. They are usually the poorest people living in what are basically ghettos, as I said these are breeding grounds for terrorists. The Islamic Jihadists find a ready audience for their recruiting campaigns among the poor disaffected young Arabs. The killer was Algerian, there is a long bloody history between France and Algeria leaving bitterness and a yearning for revenge on both sides.
It's also believed he didn't actually belong to any organisation but it was his brother, who's been arrested and held, his mother and himself who planned and executed the attacks. His brother was caught with explosives in his car. He wasn't fighting against NATO, according to him he was taking revenge for the Palestinians who have responded by condemning it and saying they don't want people taking revenge for their children. It's also believed he shot the soldiers more as a personal revenge as he was turned down for the army and actually failed to get into the Legion D'Etranger on the first day which is fairly amazing..
I'm not dismissing him as a terrorist at all, I'm actually warning you that more will come out of the French ghettos.
He didn't come from a French ghetto. He came from Afghanistan. He allegedly broke out of prison with hundreds of other fighters and brought the fight back to the West. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the war is spreading out of Afghanistan.
OP
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- #46
Where do you think he was born and brought up then? He was French of Algerian extraction. I think you have been gettting some duff gen.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577297823476347652.html
Did he fight in Afghanistan? Did he escape from a prison there? Did he bring the fight to the West? It's going to keep happening as long as we're there. This is another cost of war.
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I don't know that it's as cut and dried a that, Maka. It's a seductive argument to make but, as with anything 'faith' based (as in accepted without real evidence), it's more likely wrong than right. We might as well conclude that these crimes were the result of the obvious failure of multi-culturalism.
It is easy to say that 'b' happened because of 'a' if we leave out all the mechanisms and proofs in between. To prevent that style of thinking is part of why the scientific method exists and, sadly, it is all too seldom applied when it comes to social or historical issues.
It is easy to say that 'b' happened because of 'a' if we leave out all the mechanisms and proofs in between. To prevent that style of thinking is part of why the scientific method exists and, sadly, it is all too seldom applied when it comes to social or historical issues.
OP
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- #49
There is no proof he 'fought' in Afghanistan and there's no proof he escaped from a prison. As for bringing the war to the West, he was deported back to his home country France where he killed people.
ballen0351
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Thank you Im much clearer on what you were saying it makes sense to me.
OP
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- #51
No worries. I think the killer was a very disaffected young man, he was a criminal from an early age and perhaps if he hadn't been he would have got into the army and been a productive member of society. However the radicalisation of youths like him, it happens here as well, is as much a result of what we do here as what we do in Afghanistan. The Islamic fundamentalists are cashing in on Islamic youth's 'lostness', unemployment and disaffection with the countries they live in. of course the Muslim youths aren't the only ones to be exploited this way, there's a ready made pool of impressionable youth out there waiting to be signed up by any organisation that can often them hope, jobs and a cause. The far right are doing it as well as some fundamentalist Christians churches, gangs too.
To me, it would seem more worthwhile treating the problems at home, youth unemployment, education etc before blaming what we are doing in Afghanistan. If we keep the youth in our own countries occupied and feeling they are worthwhile citizens it would go a long way to fighting the fundamentalist threat. If they don't feel they need to look for a cuse, that they have one here instead it makes recruiting them as terrorists so much harder.
I don't know how it is in the States, I don't know how big a Muslim population you have, in Europe especially France with it's former colonial history as with us we have have large pockets of Muslim youth who are without jobs and feel they don't belong here. They often blame their parents btw for bringing them here, which is unfair but it makes the problem worse in that the young won't listen to or respect their elders. they feel that they should fight for jobs, recognistion etc. I can understand the problem, a generation or so ago it was also a Jewish problem, the young felt that their parent's generation just lay down to be walked on. The young are idealistic and want to fight.
The problem is a huge one, economic downturns mean that youth unemployment is high leaving youths of all cultures feeling disaffected, discrimination against minorities is always rampant when jobs and money are scarcer. People of all cultures feel threatened which certain groups will take advantage of. Afghan and Iraq has given the Muslim youths a 'cause', an identity fostered by the fundamentalist terrorists who offer them the 'worth' they feel is lacking in the countries of their birth. It's an old recipe but of course it works. What we have to do is cut it off at the source which isn't Afghan or Iraq.
Okay, maybe you didn't see the article I posted earlier that stated he escaped from prison in Afghanistan, but even then, I can see how someone would say that still isn't proof. I can accept that we might not actually KNOW where this person came from and what may have driven him. That said, aren't you just speculating as well?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
Well actually I'm using the French Police and intel reports rather than speculating. We do know where he came from, where he was born etc. He was a French citizen, born in France and lived in an area which is an 'Arabe' ghetto, a so called 'sensitive' area of Toulouse. I'm not speculating about him I'm explaining how Muslim youths are radicalised in France and here. Police think this killer's radicalisation came during one of his many prison sentences for criminal acts. He's reported to have joined the Salafists. The reports of his 'escaping' from prison and indeed of him being put in prison come from Afghan sources not French or from any of the Allies. It's widely reported but that doesn't make it true. No one knows whether he fought while in Afghanistan.
Do you know that France's Interior Minister said?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-r...tan-update-1l3e8el56a-20120321,0,779347.story
I wonder what evidence he's basing his opinion on?
Incidentally, I did find this about the jailbreak, so apparently there is some confusion on that point.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-france-shootings-afghanistan-idUSBRE82K17Y20120321
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OP
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- #55
I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing, what the French Interior Minister says is as much conjecture as anything else anyone is saying, after all he's not going to say 'well actually the way we treat the Arabs here has anything to do with this' is he? I'm not sure why you are trying to use what politicians and the media are saying as being proof you are correct, it's not as though they are always impeccable sources. He may well have decided to kill in retalilation for France's involvement in Afghanistan but if he did how did he get to that point? or are you suggesting all Muslims from birth are killers?
If we can do something to stop young people becoming recruited into the terrorist mill, if we can address the problems at home which makes these people vulnerable to the terrorist recruiters we will go a long way to stopping the terrorists, leaving Afghan won't do that on it's own, it won't all stop when the Allies leave there so we must do far more, much much more in fact.
If we can do something to stop young people becoming recruited into the terrorist mill, if we can address the problems at home which makes these people vulnerable to the terrorist recruiters we will go a long way to stopping the terrorists, leaving Afghan won't do that on it's own, it won't all stop when the Allies leave there so we must do far more, much much more in fact.
Actually, Tez3, I think we're in agreement. If a group of people can be viewed as a hornets nest, it looks like French society has been poking it for a long time. The Allies put the boots to the nest in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places and now it looks like we've got pissed off hornets flying all over the world. Stopping it means dealing with the roots, the stomping and the poking.
It's a double tragedy when you consider the cause and effects. If he was some crazy guy with a broken mind, that's like a bolt of lightning, unpredictable and savage. If he's a disaffected youth that we've inspired hatred in from mistreatment and war, we owe it to the victims to tackle the root of the situation.
OP
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- #57
You can't blame all terrorism on Afghanistan and Iraq being occupied by the Allies, it's a chicken and egg situation. 9/11 happened before Afghanistan and we've had plenty of terrorist attacks before Iraq even.
Information coming out about the French killer may indicate that he was also a psychopathic killer, he has written in diaries as well as telling the police holding him siege that enjoyed the killings among othr things. He seems to fit the profile of a serial killer as much as anything. that's as bad as it gets a terrorist who is also a serial killer. He said his only regret was not killing more children.
I wouldn't call the Arabs (many of the Algerian Muslims are Sufi, there's also non Muslim Arabs) in France a hornet's nest, they are a group of people who have been badly treated in the past, remain badly treated, unwanted and looked down on. The French aren't poking a hornets nest at all, they are being French ie racist, insular and superior. The problems they have with the Arabs of North Africa are of their own making and have been so since the 17th century. While Islamic terrorism is probably new to you, it has been around since the beginning of the 19th century with the Wahabi organisation being recognised as one of the first 'Islamic' fundamentalist 'terror' organisations. The Iraq and Afghan 'situation's are just the latest incidents in a centuries old Game.
Information coming out about the French killer may indicate that he was also a psychopathic killer, he has written in diaries as well as telling the police holding him siege that enjoyed the killings among othr things. He seems to fit the profile of a serial killer as much as anything. that's as bad as it gets a terrorist who is also a serial killer. He said his only regret was not killing more children.
I wouldn't call the Arabs (many of the Algerian Muslims are Sufi, there's also non Muslim Arabs) in France a hornet's nest, they are a group of people who have been badly treated in the past, remain badly treated, unwanted and looked down on. The French aren't poking a hornets nest at all, they are being French ie racist, insular and superior. The problems they have with the Arabs of North Africa are of their own making and have been so since the 17th century. While Islamic terrorism is probably new to you, it has been around since the beginning of the 19th century with the Wahabi organisation being recognised as one of the first 'Islamic' fundamentalist 'terror' organisations. The Iraq and Afghan 'situation's are just the latest incidents in a centuries old Game.
Again, I think we're on the same page. Terrorism has been going on far before 9/11 and it traces it's roots back to some pretty terrible social and colonial practices. My only bone of contention is that I think the war is going to make it MUCH worse. Things like that tend to push more and more people toward extremism.
That said, I was reading the History of Rome on the beach this morning. They had problems with mistreating ethnic and religious minorities and that it often erupted in violence. Before Constantine converted, the Christians were what we would today call terrorists. So, for those people who like to focus on the religious aspects of acts like these, I think you can cut and paste the religion or ethnicity into whatever time frame. What really matters is how people are treated.
