Jeff Speakman speaks...and speaks....and speaks...

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Never argue a point when your source of information must be qualified by such a statement.

Yup.

 

[Seabrook]

Jeff commented that he had personally tested for every degree of black belt, all the way up to his current rank of 7th degree. For those that have not been in Kenpo for a long time, one must know that honorary promotions are not that uncommon, especially after 5th degree black belt since there is technically no new material beyond 5th degree. I admire his devotion to have to test for each rank, and to not get rank the easy way, which is often an honorary promotion at a Kenpo camp. To continue to get out there and demonstrate one’s abilities shows his commitment, both on a physical and courageous level. He also commented that after 5th degree black belt, one should wait a minimum of 5 years between each dan rank, and that that was Ed Parker’s standard. While I can’t comment on the latter guideline (other than to say that I am sure exceptions were made), I think the 5-year minimum timeframe is an effective standard since it teaches black belts patience and perseverance. By having a 5-year minimum, it will show who is truly in Kenpo for the long haul, and who is undoubtedly committed to spreading the art on a global scale.

As for the Kenpo seniors who refuse to put on a 10th Degree out of respect for Ed Parker, I think that is awesome and takes great humility. But at the same time, I see nothing wrong whatsoever of the likes of Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Dave Hebler, Frank Trejo, and Mike Pick wearing the 10th degree. These guys are Kenpo legends who have spent their entire lives spreading and promoting this great art that we so love. Their rank should not be questioned by any of us.

 

[Monadnock]

I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.

Lee Wedlake 9th degree
==================
1st degree black June 2, 1975
3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006

Mike Pick 10th degree
==================
1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982

Larry Tatum 10th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986

Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
8th degree black by organization in 1991
9th degree black by organizations in 1995
offered 10th degree in 2002(?)

Doc Chapel 10th degree
==================
unknown

 

[Carol]

I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.

Lee Wedlake 9th degree
==================
1st degree black June 2, 1975
3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006

Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.

Lee Wedlake 9th degree
==================
1st degree black June 2, 1975
3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006

Mike Pick 10th degree
==================
1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982

Larry Tatum 10th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986

Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
8th degree black by organization in 1991
9th degree black by organizations in 1995
offered 10th degree in 2002(?)

Doc Chapel 10th degree
==================
unknown

Don't believe everything you see, hear, or read, or don;t see, hear, or read.

Dave

 

[Doc]

Jeff commented that he had personally tested for every degree of black belt, all the way up to his current rank of 7th degree.
I admire his devotion to have to test for each rank, and to not get rank the easy way, which is often an honorary promotion at a Kenpo camp. To continue to get out there and demonstrate one’s abilities shows his commitment, both on a physical and courageous level. He also commented that after 5th degree black belt, one should wait a minimum of 5 years between each dan rank, and that that was Ed Parker’s standard.

Assuming what he said was factual .......

 

[Doc]

I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.

Lee Wedlake 9th degree
==================
1st degree black June 2, 1975
3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006

Mike Pick 10th degree
==================
1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982

Larry Tatum 10th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986

Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
8th degree black by organization in 1991
9th degree black by organizations in 1995
offered 10th degree in 2002(?)

Doc Chapel 10th degree
==================
unknown

You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?

 

[K831]

On another note, he was taught by Parker what he needed to be successful on the screen because that was his strength. His early seminars before 5.0 consisted of a lot of TKD-like moves and endless techniques with 20 moves to conclusion.

You can really see that this is the case when you watch any of his videos/ technique line etc...

I really don't know, but the inconsistency in the commercial art is part of its non-traditional design.

Both a strength and weakness I suppose.

I think any of the Parker trained seniors would be a good choice. All are valid.

I disagree, there is a huge variance in range of skill and understanding among the "Parker trained Seniors".

As far as time in rank is concerned, that whole idea is lost on me. Individuals should progress based on individual skill and work ethic. Arbitrary numbers or time durations should have nothing to do with it. Talk about missing the point.

 

[Monadnock]

Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.

Yes, when you can't look up for rank, you have to look down, but never give it to yourself.

I hope others contribute to the list to fill in the missing degrees of black belt, as well as the missing seniors. If this has to be split off to another thread, that's fine. But Jeff Speakman pointed out that the gaps between black belts are pretty slim, unlike his, so I wanted to actually do a comparison.

 

[Monadnock]

You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?

I'm going to let it be for now, until more dates/ranks get filled in by those in the know. Most were put up as autobiographies/resumes, so unless the person is lying...

 

[Doc]

Yes, when you can't look up for rank, you have to look down, but never give it to yourself.

I hope others contribute to the list to fill in the missing degrees of black belt, as well as the missing seniors. If this has to be split off to another thread, that's fine. But Jeff Speakman pointed out that the gaps between black belts are pretty slim, unlike his, so I wanted to actually do a comparison.

Well to put things into perspective, I've seen Parker allow a promotion of a guy to multiple black ranks in one year. I've seen (heard) him ask a guy what his rank was, and then "bump" him up over the phone. You notice most of the rightgeous indignation of fast rank comes from those that have it already.

While I agree that time experience is an essential element, it is not the only element. Parker had no hard guidleines, but often made suggestions, and then violated them himself.

The time element is often misunderstood. When Parker talked about "years," in grade, he spoke with an assumption that within that period the average student/teacher would have participated a minimum amount every week. Mr. Parker discovered this was a mistake. To suggest that because 5 years has passed that a student is more experienced, knowledgeable, or skilled is making a really huge assumption.

Why is it that whenever you ask someone how long they've been studing the arts, they always give you the time period from their first day, to when you ask the question?

If they studied consistently during that period it would be rare. Some cease studying at some point in favor of workouts, while most take involuntary breaks in their training for injury, work, school, wives, and children. So what does a "year" really mean.

Mr. Parker actually began to rectify that problem with a more realistic guideline based on the collegiate model of "academic unit hours." That is, actual hours on the floor and/or in the classroom. I've refined his suggestion even more, by defining the hours as "teaching," "student," and "auditing." Students have a minimum number of hours for each course (belt), with no more than 20% auditing (to allow for illness, injury, or fatigue). This separate pure "classroom (auditing) hours," from "lab (physical participation) hours. "Teaching hours may be supplimented by student hours, but only under the tutleage of the Senior Professor.

Only when the "hourly" requirements are met may a student "petition" to take a test for advancement. Regardless of hours, a student may be rejected if they have not met a concensus minimum level of performance and knowledge. Advanced ranks are subject to the same guidelines, and ALL numerical ranks are honorary/emeritus. Teaching ranks are strict, with no exceptions.

The better question is how long did it take for some to move from 4th to 5th after the passing of Mr. Parker? Not that anyone should really care, but it does address credibility of the source. There are lots of professors in Kenpo just like in the academic world. Some are good, and some are really awful. So what? Let them where whatever they want.

The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota?

Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince." Oldsters like me aren't smarter than everybody else. We've just made more mistakes so we know what not to do. When you've made enough mistakes, than your choices start to look pretty smart. It's called experience. After all you've learned something, if nothing but what is not as good as you thought. Besides, some belong in those schools. Letem' be, letem' flaunt their ranks. They know who they are, and so do some of you. Business is business, right?

I remember at the very first IKC, many were upset that Parker invited Bruce Tegner, who was widely regarded at the time as a fraud. Mr. Parker calmed the hostle crowd by simply saying, "How is anybody going to know how good you are, If they don't have anybody to compare you to?"

 

[K831]

Interesting way to deal with the "time in rank" concept. Even with a more academic approach, it still seems a little subjective. Because people progress naturally at a different rate and have varying levels of ability, wouldn't any standardized amount of "time in rank" always be somewhat arbitrary?

Many people can spend 20 or 30 years in Kenpo and never get it. We have evidence of that.

The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota?

Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince."

Great point, but the culture doesn't really allow that, or, at least makes it very difficult. I started in the martial arts at 8 years old and have had the opportunity to experience and train in multiple styles including several different Kenpo associations. Each time the instructor and the students "know" that “this is how it should be done”, “this is what is effective”. Students at a school are so quickly indoctrinated and so quickly gain a false sense of loyalty (most people have a strong need to belong, and few will ask honest questions of themselves and what they are learning) it is a short period of time before their ability to recognize a Toyota from brand X is seriously diminished.

I would much rather say, sorry guys... that fellow over there can MOVE, I would rather move the right way than my way or your way – as a result, in the last 20 years I have determined which styles I think are effective and complimentary, and which Kenpo associations I will train in. I just don’t know that most can, will, or are willing to, recognize a lousy (or even just mediocre) instructor and seek out someone else.

 

[Doc]

Interesting way to deal with the "time in rank" concept. Even with a more academic approach, it still seems a little subjective. Because people progress naturally at a different rate and have varying levels of ability, wouldn't any standardized amount of "time in rank" always be somewhat arbitrary?

Of course it is. Based on my experience of the average of students I've taught, I've established a reasonable amount of time in grade. Those that are 'fast learners,' will ultimately put in more hours, and those that aren't will be closer to the 'norm.'

Many people can spend 20 or 30 years in Kenpo and never get it. We have evidence of that.

So? It's my job to establish a base curiculum and address a students needs to the best of my ability. If I do that, than I've done my job. I don't "grade on the curve," or allow "social promotions."

Everyone that goes to college doesn't graduate. It's not the institutions fault. We must remove ourselves from this thought process of being all things to all people. I agree with you. Some may never get it for a variety of reasons. Some people go to Harvard Law, some belong somewhere else. When you step outside the commercial arena, you set standards. Students meet them or not.

Great point, but the culture doesn't really allow that, or, at least makes it very difficult. I started in the martial arts at 8 years old and have had the opportunity to experience and train in multiple styles including several different Kenpo associations. Each time the instructor and the students "know" that “this is how it should be done”, “this is what is effective”. Students at a school are so quickly indoctrinated and so quickly gain a false sense of loyalty (most people have a strong need to belong, and few will ask honest questions of themselves and what they are learning) it is a short period of time before their ability to recognize a Toyota from brand X is seriously diminished.

Once again, so what? Caveat Emptor. If a student won't ask the hard questions and expect reasonable answers, then whose to blame? When you go to buy a used car, a saleman will tell you anything you want to hear to get you to buy. Kenpo is no different. Do your homework, or accept what you get.

I would much rather say, sorry guys... that fellow over there can MOVE, I would rather move the right way than my way or your way – as a result, in the last 20 years I have determined which styles I think are effective and complimentary, and which Kenpo associations I will train in.

You're one of the smart guys, but you made some mistakes right? You weren't always in the best place for you were you? You window shopped, did some short and long term test drives to arrive where you are today. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

I just don’t know that most can, will, or are willing to, recognize a lousy (or even just mediocre) instructor and seek out someone else.

Than that's their problem then isn't it? No one can do anything about this in the martial arts or any other service business. If you go to a restaurant and you don't like the food, you don't eat there anymore. That's called "free market" in business. If you are going to have the exterior of your house remodeled well, the more serious the service, the more homework you should do. It's either that or have the "nany state" assign a personal bodyguard to everyone. Bottom line, sooner or later, a person has to be personally responsible. Or maybe they can ask their mother to go with them. Toyota has sold a ton of cars, but so did Yugo. I've been to some really fancy and expensive restaurants, and then had to stop and get a good burger on the way home. When it comes to the service industry, You don't necessarily get what you pay for."

 

[IWishToLearn]

You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?

Paging Dr. Dragon. Dr. Dragon...STAT!

 

[K831]

Well, I gotta say Doc, I agree with what you are saying. I admit though, that at this point I feel lucky to train with the people I train with, and want others to realize what is really out there. Sometimes I try and be a little more charitable than the Machiavelli approach. You're right though in your approach. As they say, “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”.

 

[HKphooey]

Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.

...With the blessing of many kenpo greats. Doc, I believe I saw your name listed. Is that correct?

Professor Wedlake has done a lot for kenpo and his rank is well deserved.

Read more...
http://www.leewedlake.com/index.asp?PageID=30

 

[kidswarrior]

Very interesting thread! Thank you.

Hey, you kenpo guys got it easy. Coming from the Bujinkan... hey, it's refreshing to actually have someone speak out against mega-dans in public, even if it takes him 40min :uhyeah:

That's kinda why I like my current Silat instructor. A guy asked him what his rank was, what were his qualifications? "Well, I don't know. Why don't you come over here and hit me?" "Hit you!?! How?" "However you like."
The guy left 5 minutes later and never came back.

I like. And at least your instructor left him the ability to walk. I mean, he could have taken it away. As my old Kung Fu San Soo instructor used to say, You do not walk into a man's studio and challenge him. Then he modeled it by never badmouthing any other MAist, even though he himself took a lot of heat.

I know, this is a kenpo/kempo thread, but I was cross training at the time.

 

[HKphooey]

Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.

Essentially what the WKKA did for a few seniors. I feel it is important to be judge by ones peers.

 

[kidswarrior]

Well to put things into perspective, I've seen Parker allow a promotion of a guy to multiple black ranks in one year. I've seen (heard) him ask a guy what his rank was, and then "bump" him up over the phone. You notice most of the rightgeous indignation of fast rank comes from those that have it already.

While I agree that time experience is an essential element, it is not the only element. Parker had no hard guidleines, but often made suggestions, and then violated them himself.

The time element is often misunderstood. When Parker talked about "years," in grade, he spoke with an assumption that within that period the average student/teacher would have participated a minimum amount every week. Mr. Parker discovered this was a mistake. To suggest that because 5 years has passed that a student is more experienced, knowledgeable, or skilled is making a really huge assumption.

Why is it that whenever you ask someone how long they've been studing the arts, they always give you the time period from their first day, to when you ask the question?

If they studied consistently during that period it would be rare. Some cease studying at some point in favor of workouts, while most take involuntary breaks in their training for injury, work, school, wives, and children. So what does a "year" really mean.

Mr. Parker actually began to rectify that problem with a more realistic guideline based on the collegiate model of "academic unit hours." That is, actual hours on the floor and/or in the classroom. I've refined his suggestion even more, by defining the hours as "teaching," "student," and "auditing." Students have a minimum number of hours for each course (belt), with no more than 20% auditing (to allow for illness, injury, or fatigue). This separate pure "classroom (auditing) hours," from "lab (physical participation) hours. "Teaching hours may be supplimented by student hours, but only under the tutleage of the Senior Professor.

Only when the "hourly" requirements are met may a student "petition" to take a test for advancement. Regardless of hours, a student may be rejected if they have not met a concensus minimum level of performance and knowledge. Advanced ranks are subject to the same guidelines, and ALL numerical ranks are honorary/emeritus. Teaching ranks are strict, with no exceptions.

The better question is how long did it take for some to move from 4th to 5th after the passing of Mr. Parker? Not that anyone should really care, but it does address credibility of the source. There are lots of professors in Kenpo just like in the academic world. Some are good, and some are really awful. So what? Let them where whatever they want.

The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota?

Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince." Oldsters like me aren't smarter than everybody else. We've just made more mistakes so we know what not to do. When you've made enough mistakes, than your choices start to look pretty smart. It's called experience. After all you've learned something, if nothing but what is not as good as you thought. Besides, some belong in those schools. Letem' be, letem' flaunt their ranks. They know who they are, and so do some of you. Business is business, right?

I remember at the very first IKC, many were upset that Parker invited Bruce Tegner, who was widely regarded at the time as a fraud. Mr. Parker calmed the hostle crowd by simply saying, "How is anybody going to know how good you are, If they don't have anybody to compare you to?"

Sir, this may be the best post I've ever read on MartialTalk. :asian:

 

[Doc]

...With the blessing of many kenpo greats. Doc, I believe I saw your name listed. Is that correct?

Professor Wedlake has done a lot for kenpo and his rank is well deserved.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

Mr. Wedlake was gracious enough to seek the advice of those he considered to be the Senior Students of Ed Parker and his seniors in the art. When the discussion arose regarding his promotion, I gladly gave my approval. Mr. Wedlake is a class act, knowledgeable student of the arts, and has always been one of the sharpest guys around.