Jeff Speakman and Kenpo 5.0

[Danjo]

I agree. I consider a grab or choke along the lines of standing grappling. While I'm not familiar with the book you mention, I curious if there were defenses when you were on the ground.

Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" It says right in it that it is not a comprehensive manual of techniques, so I wonder if he also taught how to deal with being on the ground and escaping that? That will have to be answered by those that were there. But again, from what it shows, there was a lot of grappling in Kenpo Karate in the beginning.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" It says right in it that it is not a comprehensive manual of techniques, so I wonder if he also taught how to deal with being on the ground and escaping that? That will have to be answered by those that were there. But again, from what it shows, there was a lot of grappling in Kenpo Karate in the beginning.

Well, given that Parker was a Judo BB, I'd be surprised if there weren't - at least in the beginning.

The stuff Speakmans described as teaching sound like what I wish I had learned in Kenpo.

 

[Gufbal1982]

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...

ex-So. Cal. USSD mentions Vale Tudo...I'm gonna swag here. You training with Ruas in south OC? I think his crew had a better demeanor than some of the MMA dens that opened in that area. But that's my own perspective.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Danjo]

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...

I think the guy he's in the picture with has an MMA background as both a fighter and referee. Which picture are you referring to?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...

BJJ is, basically, the submissions of judo/japanese jujutsu, with wrestling transitions to achieve them. Since you're in (or were) So. Cal (and possibly, OC), there was an old wrestler of olympic fame around Lake Forest. For all I know, he's passed away or retired...this was about 12-15 years ago. My BJJ commuting and training partner (used to have to drive to Torrance to the Gracie Academy to get the stuff) joined the wrasslers for some conditioning, having wrestled himslef in college. Mentioning Rorion to the wrestler, he sez, "How is little Rorion?".

Little? Yep. He was hired to come down to the Gracie compound waaaay back in the day when Rorion was about 12 years old, and train the gang in greco-roman and freestyle. Speakman may not be using it, or the guys who he picked it up from may not be teaching it (or may not have been taught it, but I find that hard to believe), but in BJJ proper, the wrestling transitions are certainly there.

Be good and train hard,

Dave

 

[Gufbal1982]

I don't remember which picture it was because I didn't buy the magazine, and am still waiting for my copy in the mail. However, I think it's the 3rd in the series of pictures...don't quote me on it though.

DAVE: I don't live in Orange County. I don't train with Marco Ruas. I train in a garage with a partner that I trust that's trained in the styles.

However, before you start attacking me, realize I did give props to Speakman for trying to fill in the kenpo holes with BJJ...I just don't think he represented it well in the magazine.

 

[James Kovacich]

If you notice that the Gracies are not nearly as dominant in the MMA stuff as they were ten years ago, you might also notice it's because people have largely learned how to sprawl and get back to their feet if they're taken down. People like Chuck Liddell are prime examples of this.
1) can he grapple? Yes, but he mainly uses it to avoid takedowns and get back to his feet so he can start hitting again.

2) However, I still argue that there WERE grappling moves in Kenpo from the beginning. Even a quick look at Mitose's first book shows a LOT of grab defenses and escapes. Just because it was left out of mainstream teaching for years, doesn't mean it was never there.

1)Thats the key. The truth comes from the "understanding" of the secondary art. How long it takes to achive that understanding varies but to achieve the understanding takes more than "thinking" I already have it because it's somewhere in my system.

2) True but most standup arts could use a better understanding of the ground. You already answered the best answer with the Lidell analogy.

Lidell dosent mention it much but he has a purple belt in BJJ.

 

[Tenguru]

Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ. Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.

As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous. Learn grappling from a grappler. I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly. Do you see the problem?

 

[Ray]

Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ. Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.

As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous. Learn grappling from a grappler. I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly. Do you see the problem?

Here's a quote from you from a different thread

Let me point out that MY IMPRESSION of the entire Shaolin Kempo ranking structure is that it is designed to make money for the company, not to provide any accurate measure of fighting ability. In fact, MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is that most of the practitioners I trained with (and learned from) sucked at actual hand-to-hand combat.

Does this just mean that the kenpo training your received before switching to MMA (or BJJ) was just plain faulty?

 

[Danjo]

Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ. Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.

As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous. Learn grappling from a grappler. I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly. Do you see the problem?

It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.

 

[Tenguru]

Does this just mean that the kenpo training your received before switching to MMA (or BJJ) was just plain faulty?

Yes, some of it was flawed. My problem with some of the training was the methodology. I like Ke(m|n)po, but in general I'm not so sure it's taught the way it used to be. Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[Tenguru]

It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.

Let me clarify. I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense. If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction. If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get one in to trouble.

 

[Danjo]

Let me clarify. I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense. If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction. If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get one in to trouble.

No doubt.

 

[Tenguru]

It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.

I don't think I implied that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters. I'm saying that it is better to learn grappling from someone who has specialized experience in grappling. Why not learn from an expert, and then incorporate it into your existing skill set?

 

[Danjo]

I don't think I implied that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters. I'm saying that it is better to learn grappling from someone who has specialized experience in grappling. Why not learn from an expert, and then incorporate it into your existing skill set?

Speakman said it, not you. See the quote from him in one of the above posts.

 

[Tenguru]

Speakman said it, not you. See the quote from him in one of the above posts.

Oh ok. I missed that.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't remember which picture it was because I didn't buy the magazine, and am still waiting for my copy in the mail. However, I think it's the 3rd in the series of pictures...don't quote me on it though.

DAVE: I don't live in Orange County. I don't train with Marco Ruas. I train in a garage with a partner that I trust that's trained in the styles.

However, before you start attacking me, realize I did give props to Speakman for trying to fill in the kenpo holes with BJJ...I just don't think he represented it well in the magazine.

I had no intention of attacking you. I was trying to guess at where you might train, based on your posts. Sorry if anything I said seemed antagonistic.

D.

 

[MJS]

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...

Before I comment on your post, I would like to say one thing. In the beginning, I stated that I do not want this thread to turn into a bashing session on Speakman. If that is your intention, either with this post or with future ones, I suggest its ends now.

Now, as for your post. Perhaps you picked up the issue in the store and glanced through it, but I have my copy sitting in front of me. Let me ask you...do you study BJJ or any grappling related arts? I see nothing that resembles a double leg. If you're talking about the pics on page 76, it states that he uses his left hand to strike to the groin. He is not making an attempt to double leg. He is lifting the leg leg, as clearly shown in the pic. If you've watched any UFC type fights, you should see this type of lift/takedown.

 

[MJS]

Let me clarify. I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense. If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction. If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get one in to trouble.

I agree that learning from a book, tape or dvd is not the best route, and I've said this many times in the past. A live inst. is the best way to go. However, that was not the point of this thread. I was looking for thoughts on what he is doing as far as the grappling goes, with his Kenpo.

Mike