Jeet Kune Do, style or not?

[Xue Sheng]

I wanted to post this here as well, thank you @Taiji Rebel for pointing it out to me

 

[windwalker099]

It was said that Krishnamurti was a big influence in shaping Bruce's thinking..

Freedom from the known

" Truth has no path, and that is the beauty of truth, it is living.
A dead thing has a path to it because it is static, but when you see that truth is something living, moving, which has no resting place, which is in no temple, mosque or church, which no religion, no teacher, no
philosopher, nobody can lead you to - then you will also see that this living thing
is what you actually are -"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

" Truth has no path,

Truth has path.

I wonder if Bruce Lee had ever trained "hip throw". If he did, he won't say those thing.

"Hip throw" require that your

1. right foot land in front of your opponent's right foot.
2. left foot land in front of your opponent's left foot.
3. left arm control your opponent's right arm.
4. right arm control your opponent's waist or left shoulder.
5. hip on your opponent's belly.

If you miss any part of these 5 requirements, your "hip throw" won't work.

 

[windwalker099]

指月之指，非是月；道之法，非是道。
The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon; the method of the Way is not the Way itself.

Krishnamurti’s philosophy, truth has no fixed path. Bruce Lee’s martial arts philosophy techniques are tools, true understanding comes from direct experience and adaptability.

The throw is a tool, not a doctrine.
The moment you treat it as the only way, you lose the ability to flow.

 

[Holmejr]

So when does JKD simply evolve and look like MMA? Or will we always be able to tell what it is just by observation?

 

[windwalker099]

So when does JKD simply evolve and look like MMA? Or will we always be able to tell what it is just by observation?

One way of looking at it:

Jiddu Krishnamurti:

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent."
Krishnamurti emphasized direct experience over labels and doctrines.

This idea is also expressed in some Taiji practices at a certain level of mastery, where transcending rigid forms and labels becomes key to deeper understanding and freedom of movement.

Wang Yongquan:
"Follow the rules and break the rules, break the rules and follow the rules. Only when you practice to this level can you achieve emptiness without stagnation, freedom of movement and stillness, formlessness and imagelessness, and the whole body is transparent."

Krishnamurti also said:
"Truth has no path, and that is the beauty of truth, it is living."

This directly applies to JKD’s core philosophy—it is not a rigid system but an evolving, adaptable approach to combat. Bruce Lee rejected the idea of JKD being a "style." If JKD truly follows its own philosophy, then its evolution depends on the practitioner’s level of awareness.

Seeking to label or define it would seem contrary to its core principles. "It" does not evolve; rather, practitioners using this philosophy as the basis for their own self-inquiry evolve.

One might look at who the teacher was that a practitioner followed / trained under
to understand the "practitioners" reflection " look/usage " of this within their movements.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The throw is a tool, not a doctrine.
The moment you treat it as the only way, you lose the ability to flow.

If you don't even know the only way, you can't even start to flow. You have to learn how to walk before you can run.

First you need to develop a set of tools. When you have enough tools in your toolbox, you can then talk about abstract stuff such as pointing fingers to the moon.

JKD assume it's students have all completely developed their toolbox. How to put the 1st tool, the 2nd tool, ... into the toolbox, JKD has never addressed that issue.

What's JKD's

- toolbox containing?
- entering strategies?
- finish strategies?
- strategy changing in the middle of the fight?
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The moment you treat it as the only way, you lose the ability to flow.

In order to have the ability to flow, you have to know everything and also to be good on everything. Does JKD have a plan to help you to get there (know everything and good on everything)?

For example, if you have never developed your roundhouse kick, when your opponent switches from a uniform stance into a mirror stance, you may not even recognize that roundhouse kick opportunity. Or you may recognize that opportunity, but if your roundhouse kick is not fast and power enough, you still won't be able to flow and take that opportunity.

 

[windwalker099]

In order to have the ability to flow, you have to know everything and also to be good on everything. Does JKD have a plan to help you to get there (know everything and good on everything)?

Donno, you should ask those who practice JKD.

What is everything?

One only has to be better at what they do, then the other is at what they do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is everything?

One only has to be better at what they do, then the other is at what they do.

Everything means for each and every opportunity, you know how to take advantage on it.

For example, when your opponent dodges under your hook punch,

- What opportunity can you see?
- How to take advantage on it?

If you let that opportunity to pass by and don't know how to take advantage on it, you are not "flow".

 

[Same Trick]

The way of the intercepting fist - so sure there is a way, at least in the name JKD, the “way” may suggest it’s a style/system.

“Intercepting” suggests the system aim at developing and sharpening the practitioners senses, aiming at ultimately with sophisticated timing opponent is caught just as his intent is to take action, if it’s a right cross or a hip throw doesn’t matter if they are caught before physically executed .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Donno, you should ask those who practice JKD.

Do we have anybody who train JKD in this forum? Can you share information such as:

- What's the beginner level, intermediate level, advance level training programs for JKD?
- What are the tools in JKD's toolbox?
- What are the JKD "entering strategy" (I believe this can be the major difference between WC and JKD)?
- Are there any solo forms training at all?
- ...

JKD evolved from WC. Should there be more JKD practitioners than WC practitioners today?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Do we have anybody who train JKD in this forum? Can you share information such as:

- What's the beginner level, intermediate level, advance level training programs for JKD?
- What are the tools in JKD's toolbox?
- What are the JKD "entering strategy" (I believe this can be the major difference between WC and JKD)?
- Are there any solo forms training at all?
- ...

JKD evolved from WC. Should there be more JKD practitioners than WC practitioners today?

Reading what is shared at the following link should help your understanding a little more:

https://completejkd.com/jeet-kune-do/

 

[ap Oweyn]

When I was training as a counselor/therapist, one of my supervisors defined theory as nothing more than a way of organizing your work. I often think of style the same way. I know there are a thousand quotes from Lee and his influences that we could post here about style. But setting all that aside for a bit...

When Lee was formulating then teaching JKD, it was a relatively small group. And he talked a lot about personalised training plans based on each individual's needs and strengths. So Dan Inosanto's program might have looked different from Ted Wong's, which looked different from Larry Hartsell's, etc.

Then comes the question of scalability. Once you go from a core group of... let's say 10 (picking that number from the aether)... to bigger classes, things generally get more systematised. Your work has to become more organised to be done at scale.

I would be sorely tempted to describe JKD as a style at this point. Or perhaps two styles. "Original JKD" and "JKD Concepts." There's still room for variation, but there's enough commonality and consistency to be recognisable as JKD.

My experience has been in JKD Concepts. And, honestly, I didn't put my focus in that Jun Fan (Wing Chun-derived) core, so I'm hesitant to describe myself as having studied JKD really. More Inosanto Blend kali and southeast Asian kickboxing. But that aside for a minute...

I was at the gym a couple of months ago at the university where I study. I'm an out-of-shape 53-year-old grad student, so I was making a pretty poor showing on the heavy bag, in my view. But it caught the attention of some young guy. He was perfectly cordial, but chose that moment to come and use the bags himself. We had to take turns, as another young person was busy making me look bad on the other one.

So this young guy is shadowboxing on the side while I'm doing my thing. And I could recognise what he was doing as savate (which he confirmed). Then he went into some basic trapping movements. Not from a wing chun stance. So he came from a JKD Concepts school. Readily recognisable as JKD Concepts because that's how that work is often organised. Not formless. But a common, repeated combination of influences easily detected by someone else with exposure to that system.

I'm confident that there are philosophical counterarguments people could/might make, but if you take style to mean something technically reproducible and recognisable, then I think the word works just fine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When I was training as a counselor/therapist, one of my supervisors defined theory as nothing more than a way of organizing your work. I often think of style the same way. I know there are a thousand quotes from Lee and his influences that we could post here about style. But setting all that aside for a bit...

When Lee was formulating then teaching JKD, it was a relatively small group. And he talked a lot about personalised training plans based on each individual's needs and strengths. So Dan Inosanto's program might have looked different from Ted Wong's, which looked different from Larry Hartsell's, etc.

Then comes the question of scalability. Once you go from a core group of... let's say 10 (picking that number from the aether)... to bigger classes, things generally get more systematised. Your work has to become more organised to be done at scale.

I would be sorely tempted to describe JKD as a style at this point. Or perhaps two styles. "Original JKD" and "JKD Concepts." There's still room for variation, but there's enough commonality and consistency to be recognisable as JKD.

My experience has been in JKD Concepts. And, honestly, I didn't put my focus in that Jun Fan (Wing Chun-derived) core, so I'm hesitant to describe myself as having studied JKD really. More Inosanto Blend kali and southeast Asian kickboxing. But that aside for a minute...

I was at the gym a couple of months ago at the university where I study. I'm an out-of-shape 53-year-old grad student, so I was making a pretty poor showing on the heavy bag, in my view. But it caught the attention of some young guy. He was perfectly cordial, but chose that moment to come and use the bags himself. We had to take turns, as another young person was busy making me look bad on the other one.

So this young guy is shadowboxing on the side while I'm doing my thing. And I could recognise what he was doing as savate (which he confirmed). Then he went into some basic trapping movements. Not from a wing chun stance. So he came from a JKD Concepts school. Readily recognisable as JKD Concepts because that's how that work is often organised. Not formless. But a common, repeated combination of influences easily detected by someone else with exposure to that system.

I'm confident that there are philosophical counterarguments people could/might make, but if you take style to mean something technically reproducible and recognisable, then I think the word works just fine.

To be honest, i tend to categorize JKD as you said, Original JKD" and "JKD Concepts. And i have trained a little (very little) of both.

As to Jun Fan, i did a little, i tend to refer to it as Wing Chun on steroids

 

[ap Oweyn]

To be honest, i tend to categorize JKD as you said, Original JKD" and "JKD Concepts. And i have trained a little (very little) of both.

As to Jun Fan, i did a little, i tend to refer to it as Wing Chun on steroids

I did a little Jun Fan myself. Very little really. Ironically, I found FMA through an interest in JKD. Then, when I finally found a JKD instructor, I focused on the FMA component of it to the exclusion of JKD. Fickle, I am.

I should say, though, that JKD Concepts schools and teachers tend to vary the ratios in their given approach. One teacher may emphasize silat where another focuses on BJJ or shootwrestling (I'm thinking of Erik Paulson as an example of the latter, though this has existed almost from Day 1 in JKD with Larry Hartsell and his focus on grappling over the more common emphasis on wing chun, boxing, and fencing.)

Regardless of how much of each cocktail ingredient there is, what Erik Paulson does is recognisably related to what Cass Magda does (as an example of a JKD teacher whose emphasis runs more to FMA and silat than grappling). There's enough stylistic overlap to relate them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I did a little Jun Fan myself. Very little really. Ironically, I found FMA through an interest in JKD. Then, when I finally found a JKD instructor, I focused on the FMA component of it to the exclusion of JKD. Fickle, I am.

I should say, though, that JKD Concepts schools and teachers tend to vary the ratios in their given approach. One teacher may emphasize silat where another focuses on BJJ or shootwrestling (I'm thinking of Erik Paulson as an example of the latter, though this has existed almost from Day 1 in JKD with Larry Hartsell and his focus on grappling over the more common emphasis on wing chun, boxing, and fencing.)

Regardless of how much of each cocktail ingredient there is, what Erik Paulson does is recognisably related to what Cass Magda does (as an example of a JKD teacher whose emphasis runs more to FMA and silat than grappling). There's enough stylistic overlap to relate them.

Trained only a little JKD, but am going back next month hopefully

I trained a little in the "JKD Concepts” side , he did seem to talk more about sticks and knives. I trained more (still not much) on the “Original JKD" side, or at least i feel it is. Going back to what i feel is the Original JKD side of the fence.

 

[drop bear]

If I can walk in to a gym and be taught it.

It's a style.

 

[Buka]

If getting the snot whooped out of me by JKD guys counts as studying it, yeah, I studied JKD. Both vertically AND horizontally. (Good view from down there.)

 

[Xue Sheng]

If getting the snot whooped out of me by JKD guys counts as studying it, yeah, I studied JKD. Both vertically AND horizontally. (Good view from down there.)

Well then, heck, that would mean i have also studied American Kempo, Southern Preying Mantis and Aikido… actually i guess of those i studied A LOT of Southern Preying Mantis …. Have to add those to my resume