Jan Dai lik (forward elbow intention)

[Hendrik]

I tend to agree with Jake. The human body does have a hydraulic system. This is the circulatory system with various fluid pressures, valves, etc. But this is not what moves the body or puts out force. In the end it comes down to biomechanics. Muscles and bones do the work. So I find it a bit frustrating that I try and use my understanding of what I am learning and back up Hendrik's ideas with some straight-forward biomechanics, but rather take that to heart he says we are all wrong for talking about mechanics and comes up with a hydraulic analogy.

Hydraulic is a simple model to contrast the differences of the different system.
It is not a real thing, just a model .
similar to how can human is just biomechanics? It is just a model.



The reason one would not be able to grasp it because one has not yet develop the body to do what I do in the video. Navin or Robert or Phil or Jim or Sergio......etc will tell you this is a reality for them.


In fact, you would like to read Robert future article in WCI on hydraulic system.

 

[Hendrik]

Can you demonstrate your hydraulic force flow like in this video from a sideways stance? Not a sideways fighting stance. Just perpendicular to dummy?

One can use it in any direction, otherwise, it is not for close , stick, combat

 

[Hendrik]

Call it whatever you want dude, but you are still using your hips and shoulders. Have fun in that bubble of reality you're in...population = 1

There is a different between use the hips and shoulders direct
And
Use Hips and shoulders in direct.

That is the key which you have not expose to yet

 

[Hendrik]

Some One can have a better model then me, and I expect it in the future.

However, the key is , the " hydraulic " type exist , it accord with ancient Wck description from different lineages, and Chinese internal martial art practice. It is the practice of SNT

today's many wcners have developed it, from Robert to his students , to Sergio and his students to Navin to Jim to Phil Romero... And their students.....etc they all have this force flow type of ability and clearly know it is not what the hard body long range modern Wck which stress structure , loading joints....etc practice.

As in this video, it is not the common kick and punch mechanical type that is for sure. Why I know? Bring it to the physics lab, and one will see the data .


It doesn't have to be me there, anyone who develop it Ie. Navin will be able to do it under the modern technology monitoring to tell the difference between the two different way.

You guys sure can keep arguing. It is normal when one faces changes to resist it.

 

[Kwan Sau]

You guys sure can keep arguing. It is normal when one faces changes to resist it.

Hendrik, us 'guys' are not arguing, some of us are simply stating that what you present is BASIC knowledge, that's all. I have a question for you: have you ever studied Yip Man wing chun? And if so, from whom?

 

[Danny T]

"It is a hydraulic system". Uh, NO!
Hydraulic pertains to being operated by a liquid moving in a confined space under pressure.
What liquid is being moved for the transmission of energy?
Force is linear: that is physics. Energy is circular. The body is but a vessel for the energy to flow through but it is not a hydraulic system for there is flow of fluid. However, I do understand and agree with the analogy of the flow within the body and the connection one creates with the opponent through the bridge.

 

[dlcox]

Hi

Hi Dave!

Interesting to hear you say that, especially considering your passionate stance on this issue not so long ago. If I remember correctly, to paraphrase, you basically said I didn't know what the hell I was talking about. Now you do a complete 360. Not trying to pick a fight, just find the change in opinion interesting. What was it that changed your mind?

---When I left the KFO forum I went over to the facebook Wing Chun forum. Alan and some of his students are regulars over there, so we still interacted a lot. At one point I put up a youtube clip showing my understanding of WCK biomechanics and power generation at the time. Alan thought a lot of it was CSL without me giving credit to Robert and we got into it again. But he also said a good amount was still different. Not long after that Alan put out his on-line mentorship program where he puts up video courses of various topics in CSLWCK. He has done courses in "body structure blueprint", SNT, CK, and "Chinese Boxing" so far. I decided it was time to "put up or shut up." So I "put up" and signed up for his mentorship program. When you see him giving detailed instruction and demo'ing everything with a student, things became far more clear than can be talked about in a forum. I try to keep an open mind about such things, and with my background in anatomy, physiology and biomechanics I was able to quickly see the value in what he was showing. I haven't regretted signing up for his program and doing the work! I am planning a trip later in the year to visit Robert Chu.


So I look to your comment & the fact that you are studying Chu's method as, at least in some form, validation of my view on the art being formless & principle driven. Principles that can be interpreted & expressed many different ways.

---I agree.

If this is so, I beg to ask, how revolutionary is this whole snake thing when an insignificant, uneducated nobody such as myself can explain what is being expressed when I have never studied the snake method? Or is it that I'm still in the dark and what is shown by Chu, et al is more than what is understood by the general community?

---Honestly, Dave I really don't know. You'll notice on this thread I have been careful to say that what I am impressed with is what I am learning about CSLWCK. Robert and Alan both attribute a lot of it to Hendrik's teaching. But they never break it down and say "this is the part from Hendrik". I posted a video of Aaron Baum working the heavy bag with good CSL mechanics and left it for Hendrik to say whether this was using his "snake engine" or not. He never said. I talked about the biomechanics I am learning from CSLWCK and Hendrik turned around and said we all had it wrong, that it's not mechanics its hydraulics without ever affirming what I was saying. I've pointed out several times here that I haven't been too impressed with the way Hendrik has presented his stuff in the forums. Like you have said, there is nothing particularly new or revolutionary here. I think it is the combination of various elements and how they are used together that is the "new" thing. Its how they are combined, what is emphasized, and how they are developed.


It's about connecting dots, even when those dots seem to be invisible.

---Exactly! And I think (at least in CSLWCK, I can't speak for Hendrik) what is unique is which dots are emphasized and exactly how they are connected to maximize function.


Chu & Orr are simply propagating a Yik Kam ancestral origin to validate the changes they made to the art by adding MMA methodology to it,

---I've thought about that a lot lately, of course. I still stand by my old comments in KFO that in the clips Alan posted at the time there was more western boxing than Wing Chun. Remember the clip in question? Josh Kaldana? He was a relative beginner in Wing Chun at the time! But what I am seeing in Alan's "Chinese Boxing" course is different. If any MMA methodology has been added, its the training methodology and not techniques necessarily. I think the context in which we practice our art shapes it to some extent. If you practice WCK in the context of having to deal with modern kickboxers and grapplers, your WCK is just naturally going to adapt and evolve to deal with that.


Hendrik uses Emei to validate an "Ancestral" method. How is what they are doing any different than what Chan family did 50 years ago? Or what Pao Fa Lian style did 50 years ago? Or what Hoffman did with his "Weng Chun"? All just different examples of marketing. None of them have the "Original Recipe" they simply use available resources to justify changing the art to suit their ideals and needs. I don't have a problem with that. Things should evolve, that's how we grow.

---I agree with you. No one has a time machine to go back and verify the facts.

reminds me of when you said that those who change the art in this manner are no longer doing what you would consider Yong Chun. Seems to me your doing an awful lot of waffling and band wagon hopping, just saying how it appears.

---Not sure what I said way back then or how you are remembering what I said way back then. But I recall saying that you needed to stay within certain parameters to still be Wing Chun. You can't just do any old thing you want and call it "Wing Chun." I haven't seen anything in Alan Orrs courses that goes outside of those parameters.

Hi Keith,

Thank you for your evaluation and honest reply. I'm glad you can see it for what it is and if it has value for you and adds clarity, that's awesome. Good luck with your training. In time you will see others in various branches that have a similar approach and methodology, but they will call it something else. Yong Chun in its many variations is a vast pool, sometimes it takes a while to find the right method that addresses all your needs.

 

[zuti car]

Now hold on Zuti. I said it was Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and you denied what I said and pronounced it was just boxing, no matter what anyone else thought. I gave a detailed description of what to look for to show it was not western boxing, but you still said it was just boxing and not Wing Chun, etc. with no consideration to what I had described. I asked if you thought I didn't know what I was talking about and you still asserted that this was just boxing. So just who started making comments on a personal level first? I'm just pointing out what I think is pretty obvious. No religious fervor intended. Maybe some frustration because I expected more of an open mind from you.....but heh, it is what it is.

Did ever crossed your mind that you see what you want to see and not what is really there ? You don't have to answer , just think about it

 

[Hendrik]

 

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, us 'guys' are not arguing, some of us are simply stating that what you present is BASIC knowledge, that's all. I have a question for you: have you ever studied Yip Man wing chun? And if so, from whom?

May be you need to ask Robert Chu, Phil Romero, Sergio ... Jim .. Navin ....etc who study direct with me on this hydraulic or force flow handling , and Also who has decades of Ipman wck practice and meet all the Ipman lineage elderly to see if it is anything Ipman Wck has or basic knowledge before making your assumption.

Or you like to make a video put it in the YouTube to share it with us how you do it

 

[JPinAZ]

Now see, there you go again. And there was nothing particularly logical in what you said. I already pointed that out. ;-)

Uh, what?

I'll give you this - you sure like to carry on an argument and 'win' those arguments at all costs. I'm not even sure what you're talking about (no, please, don't explain) or if you're here to actual have a discussion or to only to win and be 'right'.
Since that is what you seem to need, I'll help you out: you're right, you pointed out everything and you're the Most Right Forum Argument Champion of the Day lol
Hopefully we can go back to the conversation now

.... Like you have said, there is nothing particularly new or revolutionary here. I think it is the combination of various elements and how they are used together that is the "new" thing. Its how they are combined, what is emphasized, and how they are developed.

If I may comment on this, I tend to agree with you here and I think that is what many people are saying. Well, except for Henrik and a few others that are trying so desperately to stand out and be unique. Hendrik will always insist what he is talking about is different to the very end. Otherwise, he would have no voice here and his ego couldn't survive that.
I would say though, that from watching his clips, he is doing things very differently - but I think that's just a result of his low skill level in what he's trying to demonstrate vs. anything new.

If you practice WCK in the context of having to deal with modern kickboxers and grapplers, your WCK is just naturally going to adapt and evolve to deal with that.

I completely disagree. If you are talking about entering a sporting comp then maybe it will have to adapt some to fit the constraints or the given event. But WC being a principle-based system, it shouldn't matter who you're facing. Yes, strategies & tactics may vary, things like centerline, gate theories, WC body structure, loi lau hoi sung energy concepts, chi sau contact point/position/leverage control, etc, remain the same whether it's a kickboxer, wrestler, grappler, TKD guy or anything else - 'modern' or otherwise.
TBH, I'm not even sure what a 'modern' kickboxer or grappler even is. There are only so many ways you can kick, punch, grab, lock, throw etc. WC principles & concepts apply regardless - so no need to evolve.

Now, if you're talking about 'modern' training methods or 'modern' sport training methods, that's different. But that's really more about conditioning than anything else, and not really specific to any given art or style.

 

[JPinAZ]

Hendrik, us 'guys' are not arguing, some of us are simply stating that what you present is BASIC knowledge, that's all. I have a question for you: have you ever studied Yip Man wing chun? And if so, from whom?

Agreed.
A lot of the force flow stuff being 'shared' here is covered already in most WC's basic level loi lau hoi sung concepts. The only difference is he's slapped some fancy terms to them borrowed from other arts to either help himself understand things, or to make himself feel unique and different.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is nothing new or different there, power comes from the root...... that is all

 

[Kwan Sau]

May be you need to ask Robert Chu, Phil Romero, Sergio ... Jim .. Navin ....

I'm asking you... (what is it with you and diverting to others!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)

...before making your assumption.

I wasn't assuming.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm asking you... (what is it with you and diverting to others!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)



I wasn't assuming.

Don't waste your time, he will not answer questions directly, he will only answer with redirection, insults and condescension

 

[Hendrik]

my final answer to everyone

 

[Kwan Sau]

my final answer to everyone

Ok, for once, I agree with you on the stance part. My WC has never/does not do that clamping-a-goat thing. I agree it is limiting and closed-off.
I also agree with the pogo-stick example. That example helped me to understand what you have been trying to convey. What you have been discussing is what, to me, is known as pressure. Not hydraulics. It is one of the major things that I personally don't see in A LOT of other WC / WT / VT around the internet/videos, etc.

 

[JPinAZ]

This isn't even the question people are asking. One big question to this guy was "What WC experience does he have outside his own small Yik Kam lineage?" This video answers it clearly - none what-so-ever.

Of course people will agree, because what he's talking about here is just basic WC knowledge IMO that all good WC has already. His assumptions of how 'other people' do SLT or YJKYM is low level and totally clueless of how most good practitioners in the WC community do things. While I agree there are some that surely do this locking-up YJKYM, it's far from the norm for any good WC lineage out there.

*************Edit **********

Further proof of this is here:

However, the key is , the " hydraulic " type exist ,...... they all have this force flow type of ability and clearly know it is not what the hard body long range modern Wck which stress structure , loading joints....etc practice.

Again, a total clueless assessment of what real, good WC is. But he's also showing his lack of WC knowledge, experience & application training if he really thinks things like structure & proper alignment of the skeleton, joint (and tendon) loading/power, etc aren't just as important as a proper alive & dynamic root. You need all of these things to make WC work most efficiently in combat.

 

[KPM]

Did ever crossed your mind that you see what you want to see and not what is really there ? You don't have to answer , just think about it

Zuti, can you honestly watch that clip of the boxer's cross that I posted and tell me you still see no difference between that and what Aaron is doing in the other video clip? To imply that I am seeing something that isn't there is a bit insulting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This isn't even the question people are asking. One big question to this guy was "What WC experience does he have outside his own small Yik Kam lineage?" This video answers it clearly - none what-so-ever.
Of course people will agree, because what he's talking about here is just basic WC knowledge IMO that all good WC has already. His assumptions of how 'other people' do SLT or YJKYM is low level and totally clueless of how most good practitioners in the WC community do things. While I agree there are some that surely do this locking-up YJKYM, it's far from the norm for any good WC lineage out there.

Yup, its called "misdirection"; It iis a form of deception in which the attention of an audience is focused on one thing in order to distract its attention from another